Can someone explain to me what is frame?

[eli77]

Its one of the few words/jargon you guys use that I am not familiar with

 

[AttackFormation]

Frame = the interpersonal leverage of a social interaction. It's the word for why people behave differently depending on how much they respect the other person, whether theyre attracted or not, what they want from them, whether they think the other person can do something against them, and such.

To have "good frame" in a situation, means the other person is regarding you in a way that supports the goals of your interaction with them. For example, it would be "bad frame" for a wife to lack respect for her husband, if the husband's goal is to have sex with her or keep the family together. It would be "good frame" for a man to talk to a woman whose friends tell her how good he is in bed, as that helps make her attracted to him.

 

[rjc149]

"Frame" is a term that's usually used in PUA/seduction lingo to mean your dominance over a woman, but it also means the framework of your persona, your perspective, your attitudes, your purpose, your goals, your lifestyle, your life as a whole.

"Holding frame" is a term used to mean retaining alpha cool, calm, dominance, and control over a social situation.

For example, a woman agrees to a date with you at an Irish bar you chose. Last minute, she says "ooh let's meet at this Cuban bar instead, I'm feeling like some mojitos."

Holding frame would be "sure, we can go there afterwards, but I really like this Irish bar. Let's get a drink there first." YOU are in control and you assert that dominance in a socially calibrated way.

Ceding frame would be "uh, okay, I like mojitos too." It is letting her control the situation.

There are countless examples of holding, or ceding frame. Generally speaking, "frame" is a mindset that you are the leader, and you are the prize to be chased.

 

[AttackFormation]

"Frame" is a term that's usually used in PUA/seduction lingo to mean your dominance over a woman, but it also means the framework of your persona, your perspective, your attitudes, your purpose, your goals, your lifestyle, your life as a whole.

"Holding frame" is a term used to mean retaining alpha cool, calm, dominance, and control over a social situation.

For example, a woman agrees to a date with you at an Irish bar you chose. Last minute, she says "ooh let's meet at this Cuban bar instead, I'm feeling like some mojitos."

Holding frame would be "sure, we can go there afterwards, but I really like this Irish bar. Let's get a drink there first." YOU are in control and you assert that dominance in a socially calibrated way.

Ceding frame would be "uh, okay, I like mojitos too." It is letting her control the situation.

There are countless examples of holding, or ceding frame. Generally speaking, "frame" is a mindset that you are the leader, and you are the prize to be chased.

I think that's a symptomatic view, what really matters is not who follows who's suggestions but how each person mentally regards the other.

Regarding "frame" as whether you are controlling what another person does or not leads to a neurotic idea of human interaction. Instead you should look at the big picture of whether they enjoy being with you and are attracted to you or not, and vice versa, and just do what YOU really want without worrying over whether it's "controlling enough". For me, this neurotic preoccupation with control and constant worry that youll "lose frame" if you dont do this or that in every microinteraction, is the opposite of self assurance.

 

[rjc149]

I think that's a symptomatic view, what really matters is not who follows who's suggestions but how each person mentally regards the other.

Regarding "frame" as whether you are controlling what another person does or not leads to a neurotic idea of human interaction. Instead you should look at the big picture of whether they enjoy being with you and are attracted to you or not, and vice versa, and do what you want without worrying over whether it's "controlling enough". For me, this neurotic preoccupation with control and constant worry that youll "lose frame" if you dont do this or that in every microinteraction is the opposite of self assurance.

Of course I'm only really able to list the symptomatic expressions of behavior from a solid alpha frame. I can't get into the core of what "frame" is or how to hold it, I could write a book about it.

A lot of dating advice necessarily advocates the mimicking of strong, alpha behavior ie "fake it til you make it" until it becomes an authentic adoption of those behaviors and growth.

In my dating example above, the man who cedes frame is afraid of the social consequences of asserting himself over the woman "what if she gets offended or doesn't like me?" so he simply agrees to go the Cuban bar, to avoid that confrontation.

The core frame and mindset here is that the man is people-pleasing and scared of being disliked. That's fundamentally unattractive to women. Agreeing to scrap his plans for the Irish bar in order to please her is a symptom of his weak frame around women.

In relationships, always being the dominant order-giver to a woman will also turn her off. If she wants to go to the Cuban bar, sometimes you have to agree and go. If a woman feels like you won't compromise with her and take her wishes and preferences into account, this will alienate her emotionally.

So "frame" isn't a set of rules for being dominant. It's an authentic mindset of socially-calibrated leadership. A good leader listens to his people. A tyrant simply dictates to them until they leave or attempt to overthrow him.

 

[AttackFormation]

Of course I'm only really able to list the symptomatic expressions of behavior from a solid alpha frame. I can't get into the core of what "frame" is or how to hold it, I could write a book about it.

A lot of dating advice necessarily advocates the mimicking of strong, alpha behavior ie "fake it til you make it" until it becomes an authentic adoption of those behaviors and growth.

In my dating example above, the man who cedes frame is afraid of the social consequences of asserting himself over the woman "what if she gets offended or doesn't like me?" so he simply agrees to go the Cuban bar, to avoid that confrontation.

The core frame and mindset here is that the man is people-pleasing and scared of being disliked. That's fundamentally unattractive to women. Agreeing to scrap his plans for the Irish bar in order to please her is a symptom of his weak frame around women.

In relationships, always being the dominant order-giver to a woman will also turn her off. If she wants to go to the Cuban bar, sometimes you have to agree and go. If a woman feels like you won't compromise with her and take her wishes and preferences into account, this will alienate her emotionally.

So "frame" isn't a set of rules for being dominant. It's an authentic mindset of socially-calibrated leadership. A good leader listens to his people. A tyrant simply dictates to them until they leave or attempt to overthrow him.

I dont buy that mate, a word doesnt need a book to be explained. And when people read explanations of "frame" that only explain symptoms, that's what theyll take with them from it.

But now that you are explaining the mindset behind it, you are beginning to explain what "frame" really is in a much better way... which hopefully i managed to sum up as well.

 

[rjc149]

I dont buy that mate, a word doesnt need a book to be explained. And when people read explanations of "frame" that only explain symptoms, that's what theyll take with them from it.

But now that you are explaining the mindset behind it, you are beginning to explain what "frame" really is in a much better way... which hopefully i managed to sum up as well.

You're right, "frame" can simple be looked up in a dictionary. But that's not why the OP is asking what "frame" means. "Frame" within the context of pickup, within the context of life pursuit, within the context of work or professional endeavors, aren't all exactly the same -- but they fall under the umbrella term "frame."

"Write a book about it" is an expression. I do believe that much more can be written about it than simply answering a forum post with "frame means xyz." The reality is that women are attuned (consciously or subconsciously) to whether a man holds or cedes frame. Always relenting to her will is going to turn her off in short order -- but always going for "what YOU really want" all the time without taking her wishes into consideration will also make her resent your leadership and drive her away.

The social calibration required to hold good frame in a way that attracts a woman and keeps her, is not something that can be fully described, probably not even in a whole book. Here, for the OP, we can only describe the general principle, and the symptoms.

 

[AttackFormation]

Always relenting to her will is going to turn her off in short order -- but always going for "what YOU really want" all the time without taking her wishes into consideration will also make her resent your leadership and drive her away.

Yea, i should probably have formulated that part better, but hopefully it is saved within the context of the rest of that post. My intention was to convey that if you are genuinely fine with doing what the woman wants, then there is no problem with doing it just because it was her suggestion.

After these clarifications, i think we are in agreement.

 

[rjc149]

Yea, i should probably have formulated that part better, but hopefully it is saved within the context of the rest of that post. My intention was to convey that if you are genuinely fine with doing what the woman wants, then there is no problem with doing it just because it was her suggestion.

After these clarifications, i think we are in agreement.

I think we are too.

A man with attractive frame around his woman is going to make sure she is happy, because he enjoys pleasing his woman. He doesn't do it to make her happy, but really to make him happy.

In the context of the first date that I described, the man already made plans to meet at the Irish bar that he likes. The woman made a counteroffer to go to the Cuban place (and women will often shake the boat deliberately to see how the man handles it). Holding attractive frame here would be to accept that counteroffer, while sticking to his guns on the Irish bar.

Not "we're going to the Irish bar and if you don't like that, there's the door."

But "sure, let's the Cuban place, but let's do my place first."

So we can sum up "good frame" as benevolent leadership.

In a relationship, she may suggest "hon, I want to try that Cuban place."

The response wouldn't then be "no, I'd rather do Mexican" because you're worried about ceding frame. The answer would be "sure, let's go."

 

[PRW63]

Its one of the few words/jargon you guys use that I am not familiar with

Simplest I can put it:...It is the context of the situation, and who ever is "in charge" of the situation is who's "Frame" the participants are in.

Ex. When you are at work you are in your employer's frame.

 

[Atom Smasher]

I also think of frame as energy flow and direction. When I was bad with women, I was completely reactive to them, hence I was submitting to their frame. The energy flowed from them to me.

Now the energy flows from me to them and they submit to my frame.

 

[AttackFormation]

I think we are too.

A man with attractive frame around his woman is going to make sure she is happy, because he enjoys pleasing his woman. He doesn't do it to make her happy, but really to make him happy.

In the context of the first date that I described, the man already made plans to meet at the Irish bar that he likes. The woman made a counteroffer to go to the Cuban place (and women will often shake the boat deliberately to see how the man handles it). Holding attractive frame here would be to accept that counteroffer, while sticking to his guns on the Irish bar.

Not "we're going to the Irish bar and if you don't like that, there's the door."

But "sure, let's the Cuban place, but let's do my place first."

So we can sum up "good frame" as benevolent leadership.

In a relationship, she may suggest "hon, I want to try that Cuban place."

The response wouldn't then be "no, I'd rather do Mexican" because you're worried about ceding frame. The answer would be "sure, let's go."

I think i just had my eureka moment of how to sum it up, from the excellent statement you made here:

"... the man who cedes frame is afraid of the social consequences of asserting himself over the woman "what if she gets offended or doesn't like me?" so he simply agrees to go the Cuban bar, to avoid that confrontation. The core frame and mindset here is that the man is people-pleasing and scared of being disliked. That's fundamentally unattractive to women. Agreeing to scrap his plans for the Irish bar in order to please her is a symptom of his weak frame around women."

So what i meant to convey is, being an overcompensating "alpha" means you are also a people pleaser who is scared of being disliked. You are afraid that the guys on the internet wont approve of you, that you are not living up enough to some "alpha" caricature, and that she wont think you are passing her mind games "dominantly" enough. It's just the other side of the "beta" people pleaser coin, still a neurotic inferiority complex. Instead what you really want to build is a sense of calm self assurance, which is pretty much what you said by "benevolent leadership".

 

[eli77]

thanks for the input

 

[Serenity]

The discussion between @rjc149 and @AttackFormation combined does a very good job of explaining frame, great depth too.

Simply put, frame is to have a will of your own and to exercise it. A weak frame is to not exercise your will and do it her way even if you really don't want to or really want to do something else. There can be several reasons for a weak frame, but the most common one is to avoid upsetting the other person and being disliked merely for having personal desires.

As mentioned, having a strong frame doesn't mean you must bulldoze over her will and desires. The most important part is to know what you want and bring that to the table. The best solutions are often the ones that satisfies both desires, that's not always possible, but we should strive to reach those solutions.

 

[Dash Riprock]

16 posts and 16 different answers. Some are good, one is horrible.

FRAME according to Dash:

First, it's fluid and there are variances and a number of moving parts, but it's largely consistent with your values, level of confidence, and the governing principles in your life.

For example:

Situation: A man invites a woman he's been seeing a few times out on a date. Man: "Hey Sally, there's this great Thai place in the Highlands neighborhood that just opened. It's gotten great reviews. Let's connect on Friday at 7:00 and have a Pad Thai eating contest. BTW, I'm undefeated." Sally: "I have a much better idea. let's do sushi instead. There's a place by my house that's pretty good. Plus, I know one of the chefs and a lot of my friends hang out there."

Weak Frame: "Ah, ok Sally. Good idea. When do you want to meet?" The man totally caved on the date idea he invited her out for and came up with. The man needs to be the leader in a relationship/dating game, but this guy caved and let the woman lead and make/change the plan which has a .0000001% success rate for a healthy relationship of any type. I'd bet Sally makes him pay and dumps him within a couple weeks.

Strong Frame: "I do like sushi, but maybe we can do that another time. Will you be joining me for Pad Thai on Friday or do I have to call Megan Fox back? She's been blowing up my phone all day." The man held true to his values, demonstrated confidence, and a level of IDGAF. If Sally throws a hissy fit over Thai food, this guy would simply say "Ok, maybe another time. Bye." And it's next batter up. No big deal. He held frame with the woman.

Hope that helps.

Ciao,

Dash

 

[rjc149]

16 posts and 16 different answers. Some are good, one is horrible.

FRAME according to Dash:

First, it's fluid and there are variances and a number of moving parts, but it's largely consistent with your values, level of confidence, and the governing principles in your life.

For example:

Situation: A man invites a woman he's been seeing a few times out on a date. Man: "Hey Sally, there's this great Thai place in the Highlands neighborhood that just opened. It's gotten great reviews. Let's connect on Friday at 7:00 and have a Pad Thai eating contest. BTW, I'm undefeated." Sally: "I have a much better idea. let's do sushi instead. There's a place by my house that's pretty good. Plus, I know one of the chefs and a lot of my friends hang out there."

Weak Frame: "Ah, ok Sally. Good idea. When do you want to meet?" The man totally caved on the date idea he invited her out for and came up with. The man needs to be the leader in a relationship/dating game, but this guy caved and let the woman lead and make/change the plan which has a .0000001% success rate for a healthy relationship of any type. I'd bet Sally makes him pay and dumps him within a couple weeks.

Strong Frame: "I do like sushi, but maybe we can do that another time. Will you be joining me for Pad Thai on Friday or do I have to call Megan Fox back? She's been blowing up my phone all day." The man held true to his values, demonstrated confidence, and a level of IDGAF. If Sally throws a hissy fit over Thai food, this guy would simply say "Ok, maybe another time. Bye." And it's next batter up. No big deal. He held frame with the woman.

Hope that helps.

Ciao,

Dash

The horrible one being yours right?