Bad situation - How do I handle this

[izza]

Honestly, I regret reviving this thread.

Igetit, you're right. Like you've always been.

I did what was necessary, and I contacted her, because I found I didnt want to be in "maybe,might,I don't know,indecisive land" (sorry, Izza).

Needless to say, it didn't go well. She never had any intention of starting things again, of course. And we actually had a little bit of a fight over what happened yesterday.

The fact is, I've allowed myself to behave like a ****ing fool the last couple of weeks. I allowed myself to get so attached to this girl, WHO I WAS NOT EVEN IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH, to dominate my emotions and drive myself insane.

I guess we live and learn. Its really over this time, and I'm finished with her. For good. No more. And never again am I going to let this happen to me.

This thread is over

What is it in particular that I was wrong about? Keep in mind, I am not here trying to help you get this girl. I am here trying to help all of us learn to follow what we truly want and think is best. So losing this particular girl for this week doesn't prove igetit right or me wrong. IGI, you may ultimately be right, and I'm fine with that. I just think that by calling the ballgame in the second inning and heading off to the locker room, you guys still aren't getting how to play the game.

That said, I realize that you probably need to forget this girl and rebuild a lot of confidence. That sounds very wise. I do want to share some theories I have about this though. Let me know what you think, but keep in mind, it sounds like you have some mental restructuring to do.

If you're done with this girl - for now, that is extremely good news. The second she said "thank you" that is your cue to take a step back. Although it's normal to have second thoughts and want to contact her again, actually doing so would have violated your word, and harmed someone you care about. I'm glad you were wise enough not to. I would have made a misjudgment in helping you articulate that text message, because it would have been false.

I'm really glad you had the wisdom to take responsibility for your need to be validated by this girl. Interceptor is exactly right on that point, I couldn't have said it better myself. Contacting her at this point would have been contrary to her needs, contrary to your word to give her space. While these things happen, and that's fine, it would have been an error in judgment. So good for you realizing that it's time to bury this one.

If you decide it's over, then it's over. The choice is always 50% yours.

But I think you guys are missing a big piece of the puzzle here. For starters, Serg you are taking this girl's behavior WAY TOO PERSONALLY. You are saying stuff like "of course she never wanted to get back with me."

Serg, my bet is that she likes you, she likes being with you. Sure, she didn't like the tug of war, BUT have you stopped to consider that this girl is doing finals, planning a trip to Poland, still resolving her feelings for Turkish guy, and planning the rest of her life by applying to grad schools and probably has other crises you or I don't even know about.

When she says she's not ready for a relationship, that's precisely what she means. STOP TAKING THIS PERSONALLY. If it's the other stuff that's getting in the way, time takes care of everything.

Now you know your rapport with this girl better than I do. If it was always weak, then ok, she won't be back. But if you had good times, you need to have a lot more patience for the dating game. Again, you're going to be calling these games in the 2nd inning, but this is a 9-inning ballgame.

Needing a girl to validate you is normal (we all want to feel attractive, why date someone who isn't attracted to us). But playing a silent tug-of-war about this commitment stuff is immature, again not ideal communication, and it's destructive.

Well since she can't tell you, I will. It's not you. She just wasn't ready. You need to have way more understanding of your own awesomeness, and the infinite miracles that you already possess and use every day. For instance, do you know how awesome your passion for astronomy is? That is amazing. I hope you will figure out why you are taking this so personally, because you seem pretty mature for your age and to have a very interesting life.

2.) You guys are really underestimating the power of emotional maturity. It is so rare in guys (and Serg, your recounting of your texts to her show above average emotional maturity but of course we all have plenty to go). I think what you need to realize is that by giving her space when she needed space in such a kind and friendly way, you are planting a seed. You needed to bury this for now, and I'm glad you have. But don't be surprised if she calls you.

You saw that she was grateful for your text? Because it was a kind-hearted, generous, unusual text for a guy to send.

My bet is, this girl will be back. Even if she's not, I don't think you made a mistake contacting her. I think I was wrong in that I overestimated your ability to negotiate efficiently. Instead, you took her text that she was confused personally. You took her text that you "couldn't talk anymore" personally too. You got into a tussle with her as well, and none of this is productive.

DUDE IT'S NOT PERSONAL. She is sorting out a million things in life. You need to get a grip on your own self-image.

You still needed to know exactly where you stood. But I think perhaps I did overestimate how efficiently you could get what you needed to know from her without taking it personally.

You would be wise to learn to do these things much more efficiently. It is a hard skill but one well worth learning.

Finally, planting this seed of friendship and openness and generosity works. So long as you and this girl had fun together, if you can pull the right attitude, she will always be back. The more secure you are with yourself, you learn to let go because if you let go the right way, they are so much more likely to come back.

I think you also need to learn to treat her like an adult. She gets to make her own decisions, and she gets to have the space she needs to make them.

I know you guys all think that all the answers will happen this week, but relationships don't work that way. They don't. I have called so many girls after months, even years - where I got a brick wall before, I get a green light now. I believe in myself, and so I am able to persist. I don't take it personally when they say no, I just try later, if I think the girl is pretty cool.

It sounds like you are done with this girl. That is your choice. But don't underestimate what you can do with patience. I have still never lost a girl I had a fun date with. They are still all in touch with me, from different parts of the world. We take breaks, they meet other guys. But we don't lose touch. And they all know I'm a kind, honest, good friend - I'm open about my sexuality, I let them know where they stand, and I appreciate them and listen to them. Since they know those things about me, they are always girlfriends in remission because of other stuff. That has nothing to do with who I really am and who she really is.

Although being result oriented is not ideal, being this week's result oriented is even less wise. I can't tell you how many times something hasn't worked out, and then months later, suddenly we have chemistry. It happens over and over.

I don't really see the point is being done with this girl forever, unless that's some sort of mourning thing you need to do, or if you truly just don't like the girl or need to heal from her or something. Yeah, it sounds like you need to heal.

Needless to say, it didn't go well. She never had any intention of starting things again, of course.

Dude, get more self-confidence. You're thinking way too "this week."

But again, finally, this calling me wrong business is ultimately result-oriented. I have not been trying to get you results, and especially not results this week. What I am trying to do is help you, help all of you, even help me, get better at following what we want emotionally, rationally, and ethically. Getting a girl is easy. Acting in harmony with all parts of ourself is success. It's success - EVEN IF YOU DON'T GET THE GIRL.

Doing what you want has been the point the whole time - not getting this girl, especially not this week. I have been asking you to act in accordance with yourself, all of yourself, and do what you felt was right. And in that, you've done great. There are always refinements to be made, and you have your fair share.

Yes, some of what you did from a strict "get the girl" standpoint was a bad idea. But from a "get to know yourself" and "practice doing what you really want" standpoint, it was great. The only way to learn who you are is to go out into the world and do what you want. You try different stuff, and you do your best to balance all the parts of you that are affected by your decisions. So long as you are learning about yourself from all this, you have already done all you can do this round to propel yourself toward getting women beyond your wildest dreams.

Now, this girl's out of the picture for a while. And that's ultimately for the best. You need to put out the fire, and you need to do it with your friends.

Izza

 

[Serg897]

Izza, thanks again for the long and thought-out reply. I understand what you were trying to do when you helped me on Friday, and I appreciate it. I guess I just had the wrong mind-set - I was focusing solely on when I would get back with this girl, if ever, and not so much on continuing with my life without her in the best possible way.

You were trying to help me show maturity in our separation. I haven't mentioned this, but after our little spat when I called her yesterday, I realized that I didn't want it to end that way, and I took little steps to make sure we seperated on good terms. Its always important to me not to seperate with too much anger or bitter feelings, especially with someone I cared about so much. I'm sure you'll be happy to hear that.

That said, and I know Ive said this before but I'll repeat it: the problem all along here has been my extreme emotional attachment. Throughout my entire time as an undergraduate, Ive never gotten this emotionally invested in one girl. Like I said before, I thought she was adorable and sexy and intelligent, and she gave me warm fuzzy feelings inside when I was with her unlike what most other girls have been able to do. The fact that she was a bit of a challenge also probably made me want her more. The last time I had to deal with a break-up with similar emotions was freshman year, when I broke up with a high school girlfriend (she had the same first name that this one did, funny enough). This kind of attachment, for a girl I wasn't in an "official" relationship with, was the one major source of my problems.

But if you had good times, you need to have a lot more patience for the dating game. Again, you're going to be calling these games in the 2nd inning, but this is a 9-inning ballgame.

I find that having this kind of attitude is EXTREMELY difficult for me when I have so many emotions invested. What I need to do is frankly move on until I don't CARE if I don't get back together with her. I cant have this mind-set in which I'm still thinking a month later "well, she might still call me!" There IS no road to recovery with that. I can't bear it. To truly move on to me is to eliminate her from my thought process. That means forgetting about any future with her, deleting her file from my brain permanently. Its always been this way for me when I get this attached.

So that's what I'm going to do.

So long as you and this girl had fun together, if you can pull the right attitude, she will always be back. The more secure you are with yourself, you learn to let go because if you let go the right way, they are so much more likely to come back.

You seem to give the impression it would be okay to get back with her if she decides to contact me in the future at some point. I'm not so sure about this. The prevailing advice on this website is one of avoiding ex's permanently, and Ive always thought that's pretty much the way to go. I interested to hear what you have to say about that.

Thanks again, Izza

 

[Interceptor]

Learn from this guy.
Get it through your heads, guys.

The lessons here are:
1.) I should not get too attached to a girl I'm not in a real relationship with
2.) I should concentrate on having fun for a while, not push for something too prematurely

Always be willing to walk away.
No woman owns you.

If she makes the decisions for you, she wont be happy.
If she doesnt allow you to be a Man, neither she nor you will be happy.
If you make HER be the man, neither of you will be happy.
If she is draining you , not enhancing your life, and enhancing your masculinity, you need to consider leaving.

A woman who is a stranger is not owed anything by you, no matter how hawt you think she is.
Being overly nice to a strange woman is CREEPY and unnatural. DO NOT DO IT.
Being infatuated with someone IS NOT LOVE.

A woman you dont really know is not to be trusted too much with your heart.
Especially if she has not demonstrated her love and affection for you AT ALL.

Women feel like you are manipulating them into GIVING you something when you are overly nice, overly attentive, and TOO giving.
She knows she doesnt deserve it. So she becomes suspicious of you and your motives and intentions.
When theres not trust, theres no respect, and when these are not there....NO ATTRACTION.

 

[izza]

Izza, thanks again for the long and thought-out reply.

Thanks for othe kind words. It sure was long You know the famous quote from Réné Descartes: "I'm sorry to have written such a long letter, but I didn't have time to write a short one." But you're welcome, and I hope it helped.

I understand what you were trying to do when you helped me on Friday, and I appreciate it. I guess I just had the wrong mind-set - I was focusing solely on when I would get back with this girl, if ever, and not so much on continuing with my life without her in the best possible way.

I think you will find that mindset useful - to learn about you with or without her.

You were trying to help me show maturity in our separation. I haven't mentioned this, but after our little spat when I called her yesterday, I realized that I didn't want it to end that way, and I took little steps to make sure we seperated on good terms. Its always important to me not to seperate with too much anger or bitter feelings, especially with someone I cared about so much. I'm sure you'll be happy to hear that.

That sounds like it was a good idea.

That said, and I know Ive said this before but I'll repeat it: the problem all along here has been my extreme emotional attachment. Throughout my entire time as an undergraduate, Ive never gotten this emotionally invested in one girl. Like I said before, I thought she was adorable and sexy and intelligent, and she gave me warm fuzzy feelings inside when I was with her unlike what most other girls have been able to do. The fact that she was a bit of a challenge also probably made me want her more. The last time I had to deal with a break-up with similar emotions was freshman year, when I broke up with a high school girlfriend (she had the same first name that this one did, funny enough). This kind of attachment, for a girl I wasn't in an "official" relationship with, was the one major source of my problems.

I think you're probably right. I guess I haven't talked much about this being a problem, because I don't really see the problem as attachment itself. But I agree, there was something out of balance here.

As I alluded to earlier (most of this is probably repetition from our conversation), most people feel lonely, wonder if they're doing the best thing for their life, wonder if they'll get that girl or if they're attractive a lot of the time.

This is what I mean when I say that most people's house is on fire. Most people go around life trying to find a girl to play the role of firefighter.

You do want to find a girl who helps you in these areas, and protects you from these feelings temporarily. But thinking that she can ultimately help you cure these feelings is the source of what you're calling attachment. Whether you stay together or not, it is still your job to heal yourself. She absolutely cannot do it for you. The act of hoping that she can protect you from your own feelings is the cause of a lot of this undue attachment.

I agree with a lot of the posters here, that it sounds like what you'd like this girl to do for you is inappropriate. And I think it might be a good idea to take a step back and ask yourself how this girl makes you feel. I think the number one most important question you can ask yourself is why your life without her is missing these feelings that she gives you. What is it that you feel around her that you don't have the rest of the time?

I think the big, overarching lesson is that whatever she gives you, whatever it is she makes you feel, to become more self-sufficient, you need to figure out a way so that family, friends - and ultimately your own mind - can let you feel the way she made you feel. My friends make me feel warm and fuzzy pretty much every time I see them. I am beginning to understand why I am sexy without anyone telling me. And so forth. Does this make sense what I'm getting at here? Does this seem like a worthy goal to you? That's what I do, but maybe there's something wrong with that.

[quoteI find that having this kind of attitude is EXTREMELY difficult for me when I have so many emotions invested. What I need to do is frankly move on until I don't CARE if I don't get back together with her. I cant have this mind-set in which I'm still thinking a month later "well, she might still call me!" There IS no road to recovery with that. I can't bear it. To truly move on to me is to eliminate her from my thought process. That means forgetting about any future with her, deleting her file from my brain permanently. Its always been this way for me when I get this attached.

So that's what I'm going to do.[/quote]Bravo man. What you just posted showed an impressive knowledge of self. I think what you're saying is very wise, and it sounds like a great idea. Ok, do what you need to do for yourself.

And it seems to me that if she calls, you will need to tell her that you're not ready to be back with her. And that's fine. You probably can't even deal with "what if she calls" right now And that's fine. It sounds like you know exactly what you need. I was thinking in my last post, though I don't know if I got it across, that maybe you would need to cut her off for you.

Ah - in that case I wish you hadn't said that your door would always be open, because I suppose that's not true. That is true for me at this stage in my life, but I have been through several breakups - even just dates that didn't go well - where I have needed upwards of a year before I was ready to let someone back in my life. And that's fine.

I also like what you're doing because even though life is a 9 inning ballgame, you are focusing on wherever you are now, and that is necessary. This paragraph you wrote impresses me. I'm not sure if you learned this stuff this time or last time, but knowing this kind of stuff about yourself is huge. So again, good for you.

You seem to give the impression it would be okay to get back with her if she decides to contact me in the future at some point. I'm not so sure about this. The prevailing advice on this website is one of avoiding ex's permanently, and Ive always thought that's pretty much the way to go. I interested to hear what you have to say about that.

Thanks again, Izza

I agree with you, that I think that you have to do what's best for you at that moment. Like right now, if a certain ex of mine came back, I would say no. Even though she's amazing and sexy and all that stuff, I'm just not ready for that yet, even though in some ways it would be wonderful.

And that's fine. That's just what I need at this moment. I think that there are plenty of girls I am content to be just friends with for now that I was attracted to earlier. That's ok, I get to decide what I want and act upon it.

I think that the prevailing wisdom is to avoid exes because of the "house on fire", "hoping she can be a firefighter again" mentality. The advice is to avoid exes because most guys here are caught in a never-ending cycle of hoping she'll come back, despairing that she won't etc. In other words, that is the prevailing wisdom because for guys at, quite frankly, a lower-level of emotional maturity and satisfaction with their life, this kind of advice is a necessary rule and reality check. Not that I'm immune to this kind of stuff - it's just that I know it's true source, dissatisfaction with my life, and how to fix it, fixing my life. I know that getting a girl will not fix it.

So for me, if I want to get back together with an ex that's fine. I believe I am mature enough emotionally to handle it well - and of course I'm not perfect so I will make mistakes. But I'm at the point in my life where I can make mistakes, apologize, and learn from them on the fly.

To be honest, the pattern I see on this board is that much of the "canon" of advice is advice for the chump doled out by the embittered. I'm not surprised to hear this kind of suggestion, because most guys who give this advice probably still hate their exes but secretly wish they would get back together. That is just a pattern I see over and over on this board.

Izza

I also just want to shoutout to Igetit for being a really good friend, a guy that is completely on your team and doing his best to help. He's putting putting lots of wisdom and thought and humility into his responses. I really respect you both - and I think, IGI you have probably assessed this situation better than I in the short-term.

 

[Igetit!]

If she makes the decisions for you, she wont be happy.
If she doesnt allow you to be a Man, neither she nor you will be happy.
If you make HER be the man, neither of you will be happy.

Wow. I like this. I think somehow instinctively I already knew this,but I've never seen it put like this before. "If she makes decisions for you,she won't be happy.". That's pure gold. I bet that one sentence would solve 90% of all the problems the members here keep making threads and asking questions about. I hope you got something out of this,Serg897,because I know I did. Wow. The thing is that we men want women to be happy,so we'll let them be in control,but the thing that makes them happy is not having to be in control. If a man is strong,masculine,and confident in himself,then she'll relax and put her faith in him. A woman would rather submit herself to a confident,self-respecting,real man,than to be in charge and control over a weak one. Great post Interceptor.

For some reason,when I look at Izza's replies I get the impresson that he's telling you to take some time and heal right now,and then later,maybe you can get back together with her. I don't like that. I think you need to move on COMPLETELY,100% move on. The danger with this is that it keeps a small piece of hope alive,and I don't think you can truely be free from this NIGHTMARE if you keep thinking,"one day......". Another thing is this:as long as you're hung up on this girl,you won't be open or even able to see the opportunities of possibly dating someone else. A woman 10 times as beautiful,10 times as smart,10 times as willing to give the same respect and love to you give to her right back to you could be walking past you when you step outside your door,but you'd never know it because of this situation.

You see what I said? I said a woman who's more than willing to give to the respect you give her. Boy,when you said that you had a one on one talk with her,expressing to her your feelings and how your door would always be open to her in any way she needed,and her only response to that was "Thank you",man,I almost punched the computer screen. You pour your heart out,make yourself vulnerable,laying everything out on the line,and her only response was "thank you". Talk about a slap in the face.

But you know what? We can't blame her. I hear this over and over again,and I believe it to be true. "Attraction is not a choice". If she doesn't have feelings for you,then no amount of arguing or telling her how you feel will make her change her mind. It's like when a woman is in a abusive relationship,and everyone,her family,friends,the media,everyone keeps telling her to get out,and you hear that trademark response of "but I love him". If she doesn't have feelings,you can't talk her into it,and if she does have feelings for a guy,then you can't talk her out it.

Anyway,just take some time to heal man. And please don't contact her again.

 

[Serg897]

IGI, your post is spot on.

For some reason,when I look at Izza's replies I get the impresson that he's telling you to take some time and heal right now,and then later,maybe you can get back together with her. I don't like that. I think you need to move on COMPLETELY,100% move on. The danger with this is that it keeps a small piece of hope alive,and I don't think you can truely be free from this NIGHTMARE if you keep thinking,"one day......". Another thing is this:as long as you're hung up on this girl,you won't be open or even able to see the opportunities of possibly dating someone else. A woman 10 times as beautiful,10 times as smart,10 times as willing to give the same respect and love to you give to her right back to you could be walking past you when you step outside your door,but you'd never know it because of this situation.

Absolutely. This is exactly what I said to Izza in my last post.

You see what I said? I said a woman who's more than willing to give to the respect you give her. Boy,when you said that you had a one on one talk with her,expressing to her your feelings and how your door would always be open to her in any way she needed,and her only response to that was "Thank you",man,I almost punched the computer screen. You pour your heart out,make yourself vulnerable,laying everything out on the line,and her only response was "thank you". Talk about a slap in the face.

I hear that. Agreed 100%. While Izza meant well, pouring my heart and soul out like that might not have been the best approach. Her response was without a doubt a slap in the face. She was not treating me with equal respect and consideration - its like she didn't give a damn.

Its alright though. Nothing I could have done would have fixed this. Like Interceptor said in his first post:

A woman who drains your energy is not one to be with you. She is not partner material. She cannot give you anything but heartache, because her agenda is to take from you, not GIVE. A good partner is one who ADDS to your life. Who enhances your life.

This girl did not enhance my life in a way a woman should. I enjoyed my time with her, had a lot of fun with her, sure....but she was also a source of heartache and confusion. She most certainly did NOT treat me with equal respect for our entire relationship, with all the issues she had. She drained my energy. I see that now clearly. I don't need that kind of woman in my life.

And please don't contact her again.

I wont.

 

[izza]

Wow. I like this. I think somehow instinctively I already knew this,but I've never seen it put like this before. "If she makes decisions for you,she won't be happy.". That's pure gold. I bet that one sentence would solve 90% of all the problems the members here keep making threads and asking questions about. I hope you got something out of this,Serg897,because I know I did. Wow. The thing is that we men want women to be happy,so we'll let them be in control,but the thing that makes them happy is not having to be in control. If a man is strong,masculine,and confident in himself,then she'll relax and put her faith in him. A woman would rather submit herself to a confident,self-respecting,real man,than to be in charge and control over a weak one. Great post Interceptor.

For some reason,when I look at Izza's replies I get the impresson that he's telling you to take some time and heal right now,and then later,maybe you can get back together with her. I don't like that. I think you need to move on COMPLETELY,100% move on. The danger with this is that it keeps a small piece of hope alive,and I don't think you can truely be free from this NIGHTMARE if you keep thinking,"one day......". Another thing is this:as long as you're hung up on this girl,you won't be open or even able to see the opportunities of possibly dating someone else. A woman 10 times as beautiful,10 times as smart,10 times as willing to give the same respect and love to you give to her right back to you could be walking past you when you step outside your door,but you'd never know it because of this situation.

You see what I said? I said a woman who's more than willing to give to the respect you give her. Boy,when you said that you had a one on one talk with her,expressing to her your feelings and how your door would always be open to her in any way she needed,and her only response to that was "Thank you",man,I almost punched the computer screen. You pour your heart out,make yourself vulnerable,laying everything out on the line,and her only response was "thank you". Talk about a slap in the face.

But you know what? We can't blame her. I hear this over and over again,and I believe it to be true. "Attraction is not a choice". If she doesn't have feelings for you,then no amount of arguing or telling her how you feel will make her change her mind. It's like when a woman is in a abusive relationship,and everyone,her family,friends,the media,everyone keeps telling her to get out,and you hear that trademark response of "but I love him". If she doesn't have feelings,you can't talk her into it,and if she does have feelings for a guy,then you can't talk her out it.

Anyway,just take some time to heal man. And please don't contact her again.

IGI - you are so adorable. I know that if you talk this way to women, you will have to buy a large stick to keep them off of you. I bet you already do talk this way, so I know what to get you for Christmas (or Kwanzaa if that's more your thing).

To be honest, I'm still a bit confused why you guys think she's been disrespectful, but that's cool, and I know you guys have good reasons why. Let me know, if you're so inclined, but in general, let's cool down and close out this topic.

Thanks for all the discussion everyone. Ta ta.