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Atkins Diet

StevenR

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What do you guys think of the Atkins diet for losing fat? Does anyone have experience with Atkins? I exchanged some PM's with someone here and he didn't think too highly of it. I have been sharing with my parents my frustrations of losing fat, I have lost about 10lbs since July and have about 25-30 to go to get to my ideal weight before I start bulking up.

My parents were pushing for me to try the Atkins diet, and sent me a couple books that I started reading. I was skeptical at first but when my dad told me he lost 15lbs in 3 and 1/2 weeks doing the induction phase of Atkins(ketosis), I decided to give it a try(he is in his 60's). Just started on friday so too early to tell if it will work for me.

What Atkins calls the induction phase sounds a lot like what I have heard referred to as a keto diet, is there any difference? Is it safe to do HIIT or any weight training on this diet? I am thinking of holding off wait training until I am done with the induction phase, or decide to switch to a different nutritional mix for muscle building, but first and most importantly for me I got to get rid of this disgusting tub of lard on my body. I don't want to become a world class bodybuilder, I just want to look good without a shirt, and it is most important for me to lose this fat by whatever means short of using crystal meth or something lol.
 

wolf116

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KarmaSutra's success story. http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=132951&highlight=karmasutra

If you're weight training (you should be) I'd be looking more into the Anabolic Diet.

Warboss Alex said:
Hell no, save the Atkins for the fat housewives and office workers. It's not a man's diet. Ketosis is very catabolic in the long run and while you'll probably get some initial good results in the diet, you won't be able to sustain them when your training steps up a gear.
 

Mr. Me

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One of the issues with the Atkins Diet is that it promotes high fat intake, as in butter, bacon, burgers, etc., and that's not good for you. Sure, during the induction phase you lose weight, but that's because you're not taking in "bad" carbs and you're ingesting less calories.

But you'd be also losing weight due to loss of lean tissue, which is not what you really want. Your body starts to cannibalize itself when you cut down your caloric intake. The trick is to minimize that "starvation effect" is to concentrate on burning fat, retaining as much lean tissue as possible (by working out) rather then looking only at total weight loss, like your dad did, because that's misleading.

For example, say you weigh 195 pounds but your body fat is 10%. You'd be pretty muscular. But say another person, same height as you, weighs the same, but he's 30% body fat. He's going to look fat. So it has to do with body composition (% of fat vs. % of lean tissue), not overall weight.

You also can't go for much muscle gain when you cut down on carbs. You need that fuel to work out. You'll find you get fatigued otherwise.

A better balance would be figuring out how many calories maintain where you are and eating about 10 to 15% less calories per day, about six small meals per day, keeping a ratio of mostly protein, with a balance of "good" carbs and "essential" fats. Check out bodybuilding.com forums for fat loss suggestions along these lines. You don't have to become a body builder, but let's face it, these guys KNOW what to do.
 

wolf116

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A high fat diet saved KarmaSutra's life, it's not bad for you man. Having fat around your waist is what's bad for you.

This whole board is pro fat.
 

Quiksilver

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Mr. Me said:
One of the issues with the Atkins Diet is that it promotes high fat intake, as in butter, bacon, burgers, etc., and that's not good for you.
Why is a sensible high fat intake bad for you?
 

StevenR

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According to Dr. Atkins, if you have been overindulging on carbohydrates your entire life like I have, you body becomes sensitive to it and you get insulin spikes from eating too much of it, which of course lead to the body converting it to fat. My understanding of what this diet does, is that if forces the body to start burning energy in the form of fat since it isn't getting enough carbs to fuel the body. This leads to more direct fat burn because your body starts producing ketones from the fat. Apparently the body isn't very efficient at using all of them so you piss some of them away as well, which is a good thing if you are trying to get rid of fat.
In his book he said that it doesn't lead to much muscle loss if any. That is my understanding of the theory anyway. I don't intend to spend my entire life on it, but my first priority is to lose fat, and regardless of whether eating high fat foods short term is bad for you, I think losing 25-30 pounds of fat on your body is in the end healthy.
From past experience I know I gain muscles easier than many people do, and I have broad shoulders so it isn't all that difficult for me to look a little muscular as long as I consistently go to the gym and am not fat. My problem is that I gain fat just as easily if I slack off and eat what I want. So I think everyone it different, those guys who are skinny and can eat all they want, but cannot build muscles to save their life, that is an experience I cannot relate to since I am almost the opposite. In college I did have a high metabolism and could get away with eating an entire pizza, but I also participated in sports and went to the gym regularly and did all kinds of exercise then. Now I am Karmasutra's age and spend a large part of my day sitting in front of a computer screen.
 
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Hooligan Harry

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While I think that there are benefit to low carb dieting the Atkins diet is not something that has long term beneficial results.

If you are interested in low carb dieting I would suggest you look at the South Beach diet. It promotes low carb eating but uses healthier foods. Some people are carb sensitive but most people just eat the wrong carbs.

Atkins leads to a lot of water loss. You not losing fat. You lose fat, muscle and water. Changing body composition is the goal, not weight loss
 

StevenR

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Atkins leads to a lot of water loss. You not losing fat. You lose fat, muscle and water. Changing body composition is the goal, not weight loss
It seems like a controversial diet. Are there studies to reference that you mostly lose water and muscle? In his book Atkins says that water loss is only in the first few days then it is all fat.
 

Warboss Alex

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wolf116 said:
Originally Posted by Warboss Alex
Hell no, save the Atkins for the fat housewives and office workers. It's not a man's diet. Ketosis is very catabolic in the long run and while you'll probably get some initial good results in the diet, you won't be able to sustain them when your training steps up a gear.
;)

Wolfy, I was that 'someone' StevenR says didn't think much of the Atkins Diet. For the same reasons you posted, which I told Karma, and well, we all saw what happened there! :D

Anyone who thinks high fat is bad for you should read Karma's thread..
 

Hooligan Harry

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StevenR said:
It seems like a controversial diet. Are there studies to reference that you mostly lose water and muscle? In his book Atkins says that water loss is only in the first few days then it is all fat.
Look there are proper ketogenic diets that use fat as a major source of fuel. They work very well for carb sensitive people and they can lead to excellent fat loss. Atkins has science in his favour and its a diet that does work. The problem is that its aimed at sedentary people or those who think a 3 mile walk is exercise.

The problem with the Atkins is that it promotes the consumption of saturated fat. While a small amount is not the worst thing in the world its not good for your body to consume that much saturated fat. What you want are the mono's you find in fish and olive oil. This is where you proper ketogenic diets differ. Protein and good fats, not protein and any fats. Atkins tends to use ketogenic science and pass it off as evidence of all fat consumption

The Atkins diet is a good way to lose weight but its not ideal for body composition. You will lose muscle with it. If you are interested in low carb dieting look at something that promotes a healthier approach to the whole thing. Like I said earlier, the South Beach Diet is maybe not a bad place to start. Its a little more balanced and promotes healthier food choices.

One could look at Body for Life which includes carbs at every meal but has provided many people with an excellent foundation and they lost a lot of fat doing it. Thats the best way to go because its balanced but if you wanna try low carb go for it. I like eating low carb.

My advice to anyone wanting to try low carb dieting is to remember a few basic things

1 - Weight training is crucial. You will lose muscle if you dont hit the weights
2 - Moderate cardio. Again, make sure its max 3-4 sessions a week
3- Carb timing is crucial. After a workout you need fast acting carbs with some protein. Like honey on white bread and a whey shake with water. Or even just dextrose with whey. This helps with recovery and I feel it if I ignore it.
4 - Make sure you eat a lot of veg. This diet = little toilet time. Fibre is scarce

Im very carb sensitive so I have to moderate my intake. My carbs are normally post workout and in the very early morning when its oats or a high fibre bran. That and dairy. I drink about a litre of milk a day when bulking, just under 300ml a day when cutting. Skim of course. Rest of my carb sources are from veg and maybe some yams or a little brown rice from time to time.

When I train in the morning my average diet would look like this

6:30 Train
7:20 Post Workout shake (whey and dextrose or a decent mass gainer)
9:00 Bowl of oats with some whey or high fibre bran with some whey
12:00 Protein portion, cup of veg, cup of brown rice/yam/hardcore rye bread
15:00 Protein portion, cup of veg/salad
18:50 Large protein portion, cup of veg/salad
21:30 Protein portion or casein/whey shake if I am not hungry.

Thats on a cut. If I am looking to bulk I toss some skim milk in during the day to bump calories, eat an extra two servings of good carbs, and allow myself cheese (which is not good but I love it almost as much as I love sex)

Low carb dieting works, just be sure you get it done properly
 

Throttle

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Forget about "a diet" and start changing "your diet".....if you think of this as a temporary departure from the normal, you will fail. Eventually you will "fall off" the diet or eventually find yourself eating just like you always have.

If you want to lose any significant amount of bodyfat and keep it off, you need a permanent change of lifestyle. This will probably include changes to both diet & activity level. Sure, you may go just a bit more extreme with both for a little while, but eventually you're going to have to find something sustainable, and it's going to be very different from what got you where you are now.

I'm not even going to address the conventional wisdom being tossed about in this thread about fat. There is now solid evidence that Atkins has an approach that works very well for some people, IF they can tolerate it as a permanent lifestyle.
 

StevenR

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3- Carb timing is crucial. After a workout you need fast acting carbs with some protein. Like honey on white bread and a whey shake with water. Or even just dextrose with whey. This helps with recovery and I feel it if I ignore it.
4 - Make sure you eat a lot of veg. This diet = little toilet time. Fibre is scarce
Wouldn't consuming excess carbs, especially non-vegetable carbs, knock your body out of ketosis? Or risk doing so, even after exercise? My understanding of ketosis is it takes 1-3 days of eating extremely low carbs to get into it, because it reprograms the body to burn fat instead of glucose. If you give the body a shot of carbs that the body has to metabolize into glucose, even if it doesn't go to fat becuase you just exercises, won't this still program the body back into burning glucose instead of fat?
Forget about "a diet" and start changing "your diet".....if you think of this as a temporary departure from the normal, you will fail. Eventually you will "fall off" the diet or eventually find yourself eating just like you always have.

If you want to lose any significant amount of bodyfat and keep it off, you need a permanent change of lifestyle. This will probably include changes to both diet & activity level. Sure, you may go just a bit more extreme with both for a little while, but eventually you're going to have to find something sustainable, and it's going to be very different from what got you where you are now.

I'm not even going to address the conventional wisdom being tossed about in this thread about fat. There is now solid evidence that Atkins has an approach that works very well for some people, IF they can tolerate it as a permanent lifestyle.
You are sorta right, I don't think I can live on this diet forever, I never did eat as much sugar as your average American, although I probably still ate a lot of hidden sugar. I never was big on most candy except the very occasional chocolate bar, never drank soda and never really liked the stuff, whatever they put in soda always made me feel like crap afterwards, same with most fast food. I don't even put sugar in my coffee, but realized that my favorite flavored cremes for coffee do have sugars in them. I do like the occasional cheesecake but by no means eat it all the time, maybe once a month when I go out to eat.
My biggest vices probably are that I love pasta, pizza, macaroni and cheese, and spaghetti. I have also been getting exercise 3-4 times a week since the spring, either riding my bicycle or more recently doing 20 minutes of HIIT at the gym. I don't mind exercise being part of my lifestyle, I am even looking forward to doing more weight training, but I don't know if I can give up everything I loved entirely. Sure steak and eggs is great but stuff like that gets boring after a while.
What I was doing before I got on Atkins was getting moderate exercise, either bike riding or HIIT cardio 3-4 times a week, and weight lifting 2-4x a week. As far as diet I didn't go totally anal, and think I would go crazy if I counted the nutritional info on everything I ate for the rest of my life, but I did cut out the excesses after I got back from my vacation in august, such as anything with pasta in it. One of the worst things I would do was binge on pizza, pasta or mac and cheese, so I stopped doing that, stopped eating biscuits and doughnuts, etc.
I was losing maybe a pound a week cutting out excesses and exercising, I could live like that long term if that will hopefully maintain my weight once I get it to where I want. I have learned some interesting things from reading Atkins though, that I will definitely apply long term whether I do strict Atkins or not. I am going to cut out the late night snacks with carbs and sugar, and instead eat hard boiled eggs, meats and cheeses if I have late night food cravings.
As far as Atkins, the most difficult thing so far is cutting out caffeine, I have cravings to go to the nearby coffee shop or starbucks and order an iced mocha with whipped cream, not the best thing in the world I know but I don't see giving up that forever. For now I will try to get rid of the top 15-20 pounds of fat using Atkins, see if it works, and then look at a longer term nutritional diet and maintenance, and also muscle building. I don't think 3-6 weeks of doing this is going to do long term damage even if I do eat a lot of fattening foods. But what good is building muscles for appearance if they will be under a bunch of fat where you cannot see them?
 

EFFORT

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StevenR said:
But what good is building muscles for appearance if they will be under a bunch of fat where you cannot see them?

Muscle burns fat
 

bud_2005

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I have a hard time following a guys diet when he himself died from a heart attack.
 

Throttle

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Mr. Me

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Why is a sensible high fat intake bad for you?
High fat consumption of bacon, burgers, et al, aren't sensible.

A high fat diet can contribute to heart disease and cancer.

Atkins had it part right: there are unhealthy carbs and the average person consumes too many of them every day and that contributes to a host of problems including fat gain.

But Hooligan Harry answered very well.

Atkins says that water loss is only in the first few days then it is all fat.
When you stop eating carbs, as in the induction phase, you use up your glycogen reserves, which contain water. The weight loss you'll see, in most any diet, in the first week or so, is mostly water loss.

But it's not all fat afterwards. That's impossible, unless your gifted genetically. You will lose muscle tissue. And people make the BIG mistake of thinking weight loss is weight loss. It's not. It's about burning off the fat and minimizing muscle loss.

"Hey! I lost 5 pounds on the Atkins diet this week!" Yeah? But 4of those pounds you lost were lean tissue and water. So now your body fat percentage is actually higher then it was before, though the number on the scale is less.

Hey, you could lose weight simply by eating less and running more. It's not the carbs that are making you fat, unless you're carb-sensitive. It's more about what you're putting in your mouth and how much of it you're eating every day. Too many bad carbs, too many calories, that will make you fat.

Lower fat, high protein diet makes your body burn the food more then a high fat diet would. The more your body's metabolism is running high, the more it will burn fat. That's also why you'd take about six small meals a day, so that your body is continually burning fuel and revved up. And it's efficient, because you're not taking in large amounts of calories and protein in one sitting that would be impossible for the body to use (it will store excess carbs as fat or excrete the excess protein).

Low carb diets will give you less energy, making you feel fatigued.

You don't need to be in ketosis to burn fat. You need to be in calorie deficit to burn fat.

Keto diets don't consist of nutritionally balanced meals.

Atkins has you go on an extreme two week diet in order for you to drop pounds fast. Like I said, it may not be a lot of fat, it may be mostly water and tissue. But because people don't understand this, they see results on the scale and say "wow! This works!" and are prone to stay on it a bit longer. People like to see instant results or they give up.

But a healthy diet may not produce such drastic results in one or two weeks. But it's healthier for you. You're going to lose the weight anyhow as long as you do this correctly. It's not how soon you can lose it, it's about being devoted to staying on the diet until you achieve the results you want.

Even then, your body is going to get acclimated to the new regime and reset itself to the lower caloric intake, and you'll find it more difficult to lose. At first it's easy, especially if you're way overweight, because anything you do is bound to lose you weight.

See those folks on the Biggest Loser? They go on the show and now they have to exercise, which they didn't do before. Now they have to eat less, which they didn't do before. They are made to eat nutritionally balanced meals, which they didn't do before. And so, they lose weight, which they didn't do before.

You really ARE what you eat.

So the ideal is to eat a balanced diet of "clean" foods: 40% lean protein, 20% essential fats and 40% good carbs.

Stop eating bagels, white bread, junk food, fast food, french fries, oily foods, pizza, pasta, butter, gravy and cream sauces and you'll see weight loss without even trying. Stay away from "fat free" treats. Replace your food with sensible portions of chicken breast, tuna, salmon, turkey, flank steak, top round, green vegetables, small servings of wheat pasta, small servings of rice, beans, small potatos, salads, a couple of tablespoons of organic peanut butter for a treat. Pick up some whey powder in your favorite flavor to mix with water as a protein shake/meal substitute or after workout drink. Drink plenty of water. You'll build a better body.

Research how to structure your meals and how many calories you need to ingest per day. This is a science.

With all due respect, Dr. Atkins wasn't in the best shape, you know. Not like Jack LaLanne!
 

StevenR

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From my understanding of what you are saying here, you think the Atkins diet won't work and his ketosis theory is BS. At this point I don't know what to believe, but have you read his book? Why do you think his ideas are false?

One thing I don't really want to do is restrict calories too much, I would rather try and lose weight by exercising or by more exotic means like ketosis, because I know if I just restrict calories my metabolism will slow and I will be worse off than before. I plan to build muscles as well to hopefully counter some of that slower metabolism, if I do have to restrict calories. But my understanding of ketosis is unique and it is different from calorie restriction.
 

Mr. Me

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you think the Atkins diet won't work and his ketosis theory is BS. At this point I don't know what to believe, but have you read his book? Why do you think his ideas are false?
It's not that it's BS or false, but it is hyped and biased in his favor, of course. They make money off of it.

There are healthier ways to go about this. Keep in mind that this will be pretty much a life long regimen for you. You are going to forever change the way you eat and look at food. So, ketosis, though you could stay in ketosis for years, isn't going to give you all the benefits of a healthier diet long term.

I was on the Atkins diet and went into ketosis and burned fat and all that good stuff some years ago, BUT the more I researched this, the more I saw there were much better alternatives.

Though I weight train, I'm no body builder, yet body builders are way ahead of the general public, and even the medical field it seems, when it comes to how to burn fat and build muscle. They're the experts. They've been on top of this for years.

So I started following what they do, and it's rather simple. Eat healthy. Your body works a certain way with foods and when you help it along that path, you get the results, or close to it, that you're seeking.

You need to understand how the human body works.

One thing I don't really want to do is restrict calories too much, I would rather try and lose weight by exercising or by more exotic means like ketosis, because I know if I just restrict calories my metabolism will slow and I will be worse off than before.
The general public goes on crash or fad diets and basically starve themselves. Then they rebound and gorge and gain all the weight back plus some. This is not what calorie restriction is about. That's the general public being misinformed, naive and doing stupid things, like always.

Calorie restriction to lose fat is about calculating first how many calories you need to take in to maintain where you are now (your Basic Metabolism Rate or BMR), and limiting your intake per day to around 10 to 20% less then that. Not enough to throw your body into "starvation mode" where it gets triggered to slow down its metabolism, horde fat and makes it very difficult to lose weight, but enough to have you burn more daily then you take in, which is key.

That's your first step. Your body will eventually loqwer its metabolism anyway, but then you'll shake things up by changing some things around. I'd recommend you read Tom Venutto's ebook "Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle".

Then from that total daily calorie count, balance it between protein, good carbs and essential fats. Take a daily multi vitamin as well and fish oil supplements.

Divide that calorie count into 5 or 6 portions per day and you have your meals. Prepare them in advance so you don't spend all your time cooking.

You can substitute a protein shake for a meal every now and then.

Here's my daily routine:

Wake up, have a protein shake. The body needs protein at breakfast. It's like having a milk shake every day!

A few hours later, three eggs, cooked in Pam (I should include carbs with that, so sometimes I have an apple too). You could use olive oil, but I'm trying to keep oils out as much as I can, even the good ones.

Lunch and dinner is usually tuna, flank steak, chicken breast, salmon, with green vegetables and some wheat pasta. Spices and seasoning add a lot of taste without carbs and calories. You could also have salad as your good carbs, just avoid the salad dressings and mix your own or season to taste. You can eat as many veggies as you like, there's no way you can ever eat enough of those to get fat. And no alcohol! Even alleged zero carb liquor does really get converted to sugars all the same, and the body burns alcohol before it burns fat. So if you're having even low carb beers or zero carb vodka, anything you eat will be stored as fat rather then burned because the body will switch to burning the alcohol instead.

Before bedtime, I'll have another shake. Helps preserve muscle while I sleep.

I'll snack on an apple sometimes, unsalted almonds other times, organic peanut butter other times.

Once in a while, when I want a treat, I can eat whatever (as long as its not like a whole chocolate cake, but a reasonable portion of something), or eat out for dinner, so I never feel deprived. The trick is not to do that almost every day.

I work out three times a week.

I never go hungry. Now, when I start to feel hungry, I know it's because it's meal time. I actually ate more and lost weight.

When I went off Atkins and started this regimen, I lost 16 pounds, and went from 21% body fat to 14%. I lost 13 pounds of pure fat. Plus, now I was eating healthier.

I plan to build muscles as well to hopefully counter some of that slower metabolism, if I do have to restrict calories.
The thing is, you need a caloric surplus to build muscle. You can gain some muscle if you work out during a caloric restriction, but it's difficult to get much bigger. But it's still important to weight train if nothing else but to help offset the muscle loss you will experience.

And what will happen is, you will appear to be bigger, because as you lose the fat surrounding the muscle, your muscles will become more defined ("cut"), and you will appear better toned.

When you get down to an acceptable body fat percentage, then go into caloric surplus to get bigger. Then cut again. And so on, until you have sculpted the body you want. Your mirror will let you know how you're doing.
 

Throttle

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mr. me you've said some mostly sensible things, but you've been sucked into the (saturated)-fat-is-bad-for-you conventional wisdom. A significant saturated fat is essential, especially for people who work out. We can agree to disagree about appropriate percentages, but there is no reliable evidence that:

"A high fat diet can contribute to heart disease and cancer."

despite years of the AHA, parts of the medical community, a majority of nutritionists, and especially most American media outlets repeating it ad nauseum. Check out G. Taubes' "Good Calories, Bad Calories" (mentioned above) to understand how we arrived at this unsupported conventional wisdom.
 

Mr. Me

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Hey, I'll have salami once in a blue moon, a little is okay, but not a steady diet of it. But you can go ahead and eat all the saturated fats you want and take the risk that the conventional wisdom is wrong.
 
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