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Addressing self sabotage

anonymous12345

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Everyone improving their game are working on different things, and my current problem is self sabotage.

I get periodically attractive women handed me on a silver plate or opportunities served in front of me. I either choose to not see them, shy away from them, or even make up some excuse. This is a recurring pattern.

When I get back home and wind down I realise, close to shocked, what I just missed. In the moments:
  • I think she could possibly not want/mean that
  • I think I cannot do that, it’s too rude
  • I have a high stress/nervous level
To a large degree these are very automatic reactions, to use terminology from CBT. What amazes me is the sometimes subconscious nature of it. For instance, I see a ring but it’s on a wrong finger, and I make up she’s taken. Maybe it’s large feelings of shame/guilt, I’m not the kind of guy who sits around and talk/jokes about sex (though I’m nasty in bed like many other men).

My current idea for measures to solve this is:
  • Practice makes perfect
  • To be prepared. To think “Now is a situation where there might come an opportunity or she says something — be ready.”
I would say the main problem is that in the heat I am automatic and don’t do what I want to do. I’m in the process of reading Rational Male, 1-3.

Any other ideas?
 

Bokanovsky

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It would have been helpful if you could provide some examples of "silver plate" opportunities and how you have sabotaged them. However, in a general sense, self-sabotage is typically a byproduct of insecurity. You need to address the root causes of your insecurity before you can deal with self-sabotage.
 

anonymous12345

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  • A girl asking me after a prom whether I wanted to come on in. I got dead scared, shied away. (About ten years ago)
  • A girl said she had a history of promiscuity (a **** test that I passed well). After that she talked about being horny, and I just didn’t pick it up and the girls gave up, left. (Two days ago)
  • I see a ring on the HB9 I’m talking to, but it’s on a wrong finger, and I make up she’s taken. It’s as if I want to see she’s taken. (Three days ago)
  • A HB8 invites me for drinks, and I become giggly like a school girl because I’m nervous. Her friend looks at her and says ironically “suck on that.” (Three months ago)
Let me know if you need more. Though I have success stories of bravery as well. I can approach well for instance, but when it comes to closing, that’s when it kicks in. I have to be really "conscious"/steered and as soon I'm natural/have to improvise my maggots kick in. The more I find the girl attractive, the stronger/faster I bail. I can be a baller with a fat girl.

What I can identify at this time of writing is that I think that I don’t deserve it, or is good enough. Maybe I’m right in my analysis. And maybe it is insecurity. Raised by a neurotic, shaming mother, with weekend dad — but who cares about that.

One thing is certain. Whatever it is, it bypasses my “self” completely.

But I suspect that it might get vastly better; quitting porn (3 months, it’s easy for me, edging not so) and reading Tomassi do wonders. Answers to so much frustration.

Hard to fix these things. Googling them, such as for instance “how to fix insecurity”, often yields obvious, shallow things.

Thanks for your reply @Bokanovsky, interested in what you have to say.
 

BJP1991

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I have recent experience with this as well. Two to three times in the past 6 months or so. My solution was to back off from dating/approach/game for a period of time (couple months or so) which has helped me get back on an even plane again. I see it sort of like a reset button…

Back starting to date and approach again and it feels good coming in with a clean slate and basically “nothing to lose”.
 

Bokanovsky

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  • A girl asking me after a prom whether I wanted to come on in. I got dead scared, shied away. (About ten years ago)
  • A girl said she had a history of promiscuity (a **** test that I passed well). After that she talked about being horny, and I just didn’t pick it up and the girls gave up, left. (Two days ago)
  • I see a ring on the HB9 I’m talking to, but it’s on a wrong finger, and I make up she’s taken. It’s as if I want to see she’s taken. (Three days ago)
  • A HB8 invites me for drinks, and I become giggly like a school girl because I’m nervous. Her friend looks at her and says ironically “suck on that.” (Three months ago)
So it seems like you are aware of the fact that these girls are interested but you are nervous/sacred? That seems unusual at your age (37). Is it because these girls are good looking (HB8 and HB9) or do you act this way around less attractive women as well? How sexually experienced are you?
 

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anonymous12345

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Damn, this is demanding :)

I don’t think “Hm, this girl is into me, time to panic.” I don’t formulate she’s interested, I realise it without a thought, and I just panic/leave/automatically think something is wrong. I’m pretty much a baller next to a girl I don’t find attractive/neutral.

Yeah, when the heat arrives I have a quick flight response for my age, I guess. I’m a bit late to the party, I’ve spent a lot of my time on building various kinds of value, because I thought I had to do that to get girls. An over achiever, try-hard, conformant. At the current place I’m of course getting out run by a rocker with respect to the girls (and I don’t blame the girls for that).

With HBs and girls that want sex I think that they could never possibly want me, so I freak out/leave. Maybe that’s the culprit. That would be a sign of insecurity. I’ve been with one HB in my life, and I was rather oblivious to the whole process back then. I didn’t have all the awareness and my own requirements for fulfilling a lost youth that I have now.

When I was younger I was a moma boy, not proud about that. I’ve stopped, and am doing my best at flipping the coin. After the young girls now.

I made a list. I’ve had sex with 11 women in my life, no prostitutes. I am not proud or find it satisfactory. I wouldn’t call me sexually experienced, compared to what one can be. Several years since last time since I’ve had sex, though I’ve avoided a crazy ***** or two recently. I find that my sex life has been most of the time, barring a mistress, quite unsatisfactory and depressing, and I am here to fix that.
 

lost_blackbird

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I'd have to sleep with 4 more women before I hit your total OP.

An unlikely personal achievement. And I'm 48 btw.
 

IKO69

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All this stems from fear and insecurity. It's not unfounded - likely at some distant point in the past you got blown out. This perhaps repeated itself with the mistake being having taken it to heart. Now its become your expectation when situations arise. You instantly tell yourself no it can't be- and/or become a mental wreck.

I too was in this situation before and tried denying it until I came to terms with the self sabotage. You have to go way back in time and accept whatever it was that happened. Until you do in acts like a programming script and you will find yourself repeating the same patterns. When you do this things will change almost as if a 'miracle'. This I know from experience.
 
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anonymous12345

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Yes, I have the same mindset. That’s why I posted, but I haven’t had that much focus on my past or programming script.

I don’t know how many years I’ve run around in cities doing approaches with massive stress, with the same result more or less, like many other guys. Many give up it seems, settle for the beta life. “Exposure therapy” has this compelling idea that hard work yields results, but in my case it was just hitting my head against the wall.

I thought I’ve fixed much of the past as you refer to, but considering I missed a come-on this night like I usually do, I’ll have a look at this now.

Not all relationships and notches, but this is what I find tainting:
  • I had a girlfriend at 17-18.5 or so. It was the classic teenage “first” relationship. She was promiscuous, I was a beta simp, I had just moved from home, she had a depression and divorcing parents. She made out with a friend of mine, I broke up, and this young boy explained it all with that they’re irresponsible teenagers. Was better than it sounds. Generally I feel at peace and past this.
  • In the age 22-25 I in a panic manner fell in love with a little Natalie Portman. We dated, I missed at least two several come-ons, later tried to seduce her as simping beta. BPD-ish, it was pretty much a mess, charmed by all this attitude. I was painfully in love, the Disney thingy, and it took years to get passed this. But I am now. I fully understand why she was repelled, and I think I’ve fixed that now.
  • Had a relationship/affair at 25 with a delicious milf. She was confident, she saw something alpha-ish in me initially, and emotionally I was more interested in her than her in me. We were dance partners, and seeing her dance with others combined with long nights wore me out. My frame imploded, and I become an unstable puppy. Again, I understand why she ended it, and I think I am a better, stronger man now.
  • At 27 I had a mistress in same age. It was good, I was not “in love” so I was aloof, which she of course loved. She felt complete after me, and entered a LTR with some beta provider. I am honoured.
  • Massive amounts of gaming/approaches/nigh life with little results.
The question is why I miss come-on/openings, why I at best number close. If I try to condense the above, I would say:
  • I haven’t really had that “I have the girl I want and I am happy” and I haven’t played house. Sometimes I get a bit sentimental about this, but no. What concerns me more is being maybe emotionally damaged by never having had that feeling of comfort, safety, rest.
  • All the dancing. You have chest contact with someone for ten minutes, then you move on to the next. I’ve been dancing a lot, so you get semi-attached on a period basis and it is stress as described with the milf.
  • I think @SW15 wrote that game is draining and can lead to PTSD. I’ve had a lot of night life/game experience (though crappy results), and I have this long stream of women rejecting, rolling their eyes, being pissed, etc., etc. Much of this because of being a crappy gamer, but there is despite that the element of uncertainty. It’s not specific “traumatic” experiences, it’s just a long stream of rejections and failures that I don’t even have specific memories off.
  • But. There was a come on when I was 17 that I missed, and I had the same feeling then as I do now. I just looked shamefully in the floor, as if I can't have that. Common theme.
So, with the obvious opening last night and the girl waiting outside gazing me down, I quickly said goodbye and walked away. Wtf. I realised the absurd after twenty meters, but even then I didn’t walk back. The intellectualisation I did leading up was that it will be the usual post-bar tumult with people yelling, confused, etc, and I couldn’t be bothered. Though she had clearly signalled saying “see you later this evening” before that. I find scenario preparation/analysis a good thing, but not if it prevents improvisation.

I have so much emotional control that I barely feel anything, I’m not the kinda guy who gets “enthusiastic” with a girl on the dance floor. I find it hard to bridge the courting with the sex, I don’t “feel” it, I just realise afterwards what it could have led to.

Anyhow, I cannot get closer than this. I’m not emotional about these things, it’s not hard to write this. It’s very inert, like a rock. The stress and anxiety is largely gone during game though, I’m kinda present, I just shy away from the close/lead up to intimacy.
 

metalwater

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sounds like your self aware; and determined to solve. you will.

just some fallback things that you already know.

- heavy lifting and running sprints. do it; religiously.
- check your test. at 37 it could be falling or always lower. I keyed on that because of not feel it on the dance floor. And also if the girls leading to get at you. If it's low, the best thing you ever did is to solve that. If not, no harm in taking a look. The lifting and running should solve that, but if not don't ignore it.

that's a good book to read, Rational Male. you also might check out No More Mr. Nice Guy. after you finish the one your on.

How is your eye-to-eye game? When you great a man do you look him in the eyes, same with a woman. Just something else to think about.
 

anonymous12345

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Yeah, I have a fitness regime. Mostly cardio, gonna shift more towards lifting.

I’ve read No More Nice Guy a long time a go, and it was spot on. Rejected my father early on, essentially raised by a single mother with weekend dad. I’ve read RM1, RM2 and parts of RM3 this Christmas, and it was pain. It’s essentially about the same thing, but Tomassi is much better at it than Glover, who doesn’t go to the core and is politically correct. Glover says "cultivate your manliness", and while one can agree on that intellectually that might not address subconscious, internalised shame/gilt (speculating). Tomassi says he doesn't have any simple solution for practicalities, and if he did he would be rich. But that is what goes on in this thread.

By “check your test” I presume testosterone. I haven’t checked my hormones, but I think it’s ok. I’m horny, pissed, take risk, and I nofap/noporn.

My eye-game is good. Good contact in conversations/approach. My problem is rather the opposite: to be aloof/indifferent when needed as opposed to anxiously seeking puppy eyes. As with much else: sure, it’s behavior, but the source to it is your inner workings. Working on it.

I’m quite all right in many senses I think, it is this shying away at come ons/closing that is the problem. When this is fixed, glorious days it will be.
 

metalwater

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My eye-game is good. Good contact in conversations/approach. My problem is rather the opposite: to be aloof/indifferent when needed as opposed to anxiously seeking puppy eyes. As with much else: sure, it’s behavior, but the source to it is your inner workings. Working on it.
You have a lot of it covered. For me, eye game includes the other stuff you talking about. How to not have puppy eyes and instead of have commanding fierce or commanding and lusty, or gently; not the same as a puppy.

Maybe some others will add some pointers on how to do it. It's not natural for everyone. Part of it is a mindset. Sometimes we call it frame, I like the word mindset.

The annoying word is "confidence". I always hated that word, folks tell, be confident... ya right... I think we have some threads on mindset floating around. @Atom Smasher had a good one on having the mindset of a judge. Others have told how to have a dark mysterious mindset and that works also.
 
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