A Misconception about Marriage

[azanon]

Fellas, did azanon get the message?

Fellows, did Franciso not say, "Marriage is not for the benefit of men.", both underlined and italicsed in post #75. If not, disregard my last lenghty post. If so, please see said post as a very strong rebuttal to Mr. Francisco's contention.

Thanks,

Azanon

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Now that i think about it and this whole thread, the point of contention isn't marriage, its AGE....

Nah, he didn't get it.

 

[azanon]

I'm content with this end. Next topic?

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

...Have you ever been married Francisco?...

Oh, now I see. You didn't actually read the entire post.

 

[azanon]

Oh, now I see. You didn't actually read the entire post.

There's only so much misinformation one can take. I dont say that as an insult, but you're owed an explanation.

 

[azanon]

Look, why the mudslinging? Lets stop. My testimony about my marriage is 100% truth. I got the impression many of you were pooping on the idea of marrying in one's early 20s for certain people under certain conditions. Folks, it was wonderful for me. I wish I could say otherwise for the sake of being in agreement with the idea of this thread, but I simply cannot

If i'm an outlier, then so be it. But it worked for me.. in a great way.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Azanon, you are completely off track on what this thread is about. Read the entire thread.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

There's only so much misinformation one can take. I dont say that as an insult, but you're owed an explanation.

Dude, I didn't take it as an insult. It just points out that you missed things in the post.

 

[azanon]

Azanon, you are completely off track on what this thread is about. Read the entire thread.

There were several ideas and thoughts presented here, all not necessarily closely related to each other. I took offense to one in particular and thought the right thing to do was to demonstrate to those that come here that it can be a very great thing even early on if you're marrying the right woman and if you fill like you had your feel of dating.

Yes, there were ideas completely unrelated to the things i rebutted. I'm aware of that. I'm not addressing those ideas.

I apologize though because i sometimes do have to speed read the threads here. I only have so much time. Yes, i admit, not reading every word and every post.

 

[azanon]

I think we just have a different mindset Francisco. For instance, you'd see my group insurance policy as being my child's benefit (only). I see that as my benefit too, because I love him so deeply and would be crushed to not be able to afford his medical care.

So i see your viewpoint, but i guess mine just differs. The thesis of your last post was that marriage doesnt benefit a man. I simply think it does. No, that's modesty..... I know it does.

 

[Vulpine]

to be able to f*** without a condom and be 100% for sure you wont catch anything,

I'm sorry, but this percentage is wrong. You can't be 100% sure. You can 100% blindly believe, or 100% trust that you won't catch anything, but, there is always a chance she's picking up heebie-jeebies from the other guys she's potentially screwing. So the percentage is really like "95% for sure". Heck, you can get crabs from sitting in the grass or sharing clothes, so the percentage drops to like "90% for sure".

I'm fuxing some guy's wife, and it surprises me that I don't have anything. So, you get 100% of :moon:

We all know you have a great marriage, azanon. You and RT already fought about it in another thread. You are a DJ, or trying to be, so you are surely an exception to the norm. Quit trying to apply your miracle marriage situation to every other marriage and just simply acknowledge that the bulk of marriages are garbage. Quit defending yourself and your marriage to everyone, because, noone's attacking you or saying YOUR marriage is crap.

 

[azanon]

I'm sorry, but this percentage is wrong. You can't be 100% sure. You can 100% blindly believe, or 100% trust that you won't catch anything, but, there is always a chance she's picking up heebie-jeebies from the other guys she's potentially screwing. So the percentage is really like "95% for sure". Heck, you can get crabs from sitting in the grass or sharing clothes, so the percentage drops to like "90% for sure".

I'm fuxing some guy's wife, and it surprises me that I don't have anything. So, you get 100% of :moon:

We all know you have a great marriage, azanon. You and RT already fought about it in another thread. You are a DJ, or trying to be, so you are surely an exception to the norm. Quit trying to apply your miracle marriage situation to every other marriage and just simply acknowledge that the bulk of marriages are garbage. Quit defending yourself and your marriage to everyone, because, noone's attacking you or saying YOUR marriage is crap.

Overall, i like this post Vulpine, but I must ask you where did I imply that what happened for me would also be true for every other marriage? I'll save you time and just say, i didn't. You guys were the one implying that its always a mistake if you do it really early; .... as Franciso said it has NO benefits for a man, in his own words.

I'll also conceed that i cannot be 100% for sure, so i accept that correction. But i know i'm more sure than I would be if i were boning a new girl every week. And personally..... I HATE condoms. I hate them so much that, honestly, it almost isnt even worth the trouble to me to game a girl only to have to end up using one. Sure, that might also make me an outlier, but so be it. I've done it both ways, and its OH so much better without!

 

[Vulpine]

Overall, i like this post Vulpine, but I must ask you where did I imply that what happened for me would also be true for every other marriage? I'll save you time and just say, i didn't. You guys were the one implying that its always a mistake if you do it really early; .... as Franciso said it has NO benefits for a man, in his own words.

Ok, "always a mistake if you do it really early" and "NO benefits for a man" are generalizations.

Generalizations.

I would estimate that 90% of this entire site is comprised of GENERALIZATIONS: General theories, general tactics, general behaviors, etc. The other 10% consists of :cuss: and :moon: and :rockon:

I deleted a bunch of the rest because, I just don't care to argue for or against marriage.

BTW, I've boned chicks without rubbers and must agree, it's far better than with them.

 

[blueguy]

Well, I hold my position that there are benefits to marriage. I know both arguments well. Azanon, RedPill and even Rollo mentioned where marriage can be beneficial.

I'll quote RT:

So, to be specific, one could still have children outside of marriage, but when a husband and wife play on the same team and both are mature, with a healthy understanding of their gender roles, then I think this is one advantage being married affords a man in a more or less ideal marriage.

The form society accepts of lifelong commitment is in the form of marriage. RedPill made that point. Azanon made the point that a quality woman will likely not make a lifelong commitment without marriage (what is the point in making a lifelong commitment without going through the bonding formalities of marriage anyway?) This translates to a much smaller dating pool. Benefit here.

The reason I defend marriage is because I have seen a few extroardinary ones, one of which is my brother's (although another awful marriage by another brother). And I can tell you that I am absolutely sure that those relationships would not be as extroardinary as they are now without having formalized the lifelong commitment through marriage. My brother's wife would have never gone for a questionable non-committed relationship like that, being the quality wife that she has proven herself to be. And I am sure that is the same for many other men and women.

I know the disadvantages to marriage. But since we are all aware of those I speak of advantages rarely mentioned.

Again... what is the point of making a lifelong commitment without marrying? There is none. Because it is likely that if you don't marry them, you don't fully believe in the person you are with.

There was also a point made prior that people change too much over the course of 40 or 50 years. It's not the case for most people. Most people stay relatively the same and stick with their own time-tested ways once they hit a certain age of maturity.

 

[blueguy]

By the way, the question was ,"can a man benefit from being married?" And the answer is yes, a man can benefit from marriage if he is looking to make a lifelong committment to somebody.

 

[MatureDJ]

When a man (who is in the state of looking to start a family) finds a woman whom he is attracted to and feels would be a suitable long term partner, and feels that she is thinking the same way, and feels that she is near the top of the sexual market value that he is (or would be in the future) capable of securing, he should marry her. Period.

If a man is not at the point in his life, he should not get married. If he feels that she is not a suitable long term partner, he should not get married. If he thinks that her interest level is not sufficiently high in him, he should not marry her. If he feels that she really isn't near the top of the sexual market value available to him, he should not get married.

If a man has already had children and does not want to start another family, he should not get married. He could say that he wants a long term relationship, but that given his history and the legal entanglements that marriage brings, and the fact that he does nto want children, he shoudl nto get married.

Marriage is basically useful only for folks that are starting out with no family, and who want to start a family. All other relationships should go to legal marriage, although they certainly can go to a long term relationship.

 

[RedPill]

Perhaps it belongs in a new thread, but at least for me this is the next logical extension of this discussion:

Prenuptial Agreements.

If and when, many moons from now, a woman is so lucky as to be given the ultimate gift - marriage to me - no fewer than a dozen attorneys and the summoned spirits of Johnnie Cochran, Jackie Gleason, and the guy who wrote the Code of Hammurabi will be assembled as a legal dream team to crank out one of these puppies for me before our sacred day. I'll send you guys a copy in pdf. It's the least I can do for all the shared wisdom.

Do any of you currently, soon-to-be, or previously married guys (or Juris Doctors) here have any experience with prenups?

 

[azanon]

Ok, "always a mistake if you do it really early" and "NO benefits for a man" are generalizations.

Generalizations.

I would estimate that 90% of this entire site is comprised of GENERALIZATIONS: General theories, general tactics, general behaviors, etc. The other 10% consists of :cuss: and :moon: and :rockon:

I deleted a bunch of the rest because, I just don't care to argue for or against marriage.

BTW, I've boned chicks without rubbers and must agree, it's far better than with them.

Generalizations are fine. Presenting generalizations as facts that apply in all cases is not fine. The latter is what was done in this thread, IMO (prior to those latest 4-5 posts), so that's all I wanted to point out. (ie: RT saying one should NEVER marry before 28, ... at least 20 other examples) If you ask me, the average person here IS the exception to the rule so dont be so quick to limit your possiblities guys. You might just meat Angelina Jolie's equilivant at 21, so are you going to let some other guy take her permanently?

Re; the rubbers, yeah dont get me wrong, i'd use a condom over not doing it at all, i'm just saying that for me it REALLY takes away from it for me; both visually, as well as feel.

(edit) thanks for some of those follow-up posts guys (who posted recently). I feel like there's a bit more balance now. Being single is great, and presents lots of fun. But being married when the time is right is great too.

 

[Sir Drinksalot]

Again, to third parties, remember many of these guys here advising against marriage are in their 20s or younger, have never been married, or got burned by a previous bad marriage (the reality of which was probably their fault).

I don't think that's true. Modern western women are just as good, if not better than men, at trashing a marriage. At least 45 - 50% of the broken marriages in which I've been a close spectator, mine included, have been 100% the woman's fault.

Many of them dont know what its like to have a second paycheck, your laundry done, your food cooked, your groceries and house s*** bought for you, a f*** on demand within 1 minute of deciding you want one, someone to raise your children, all of the legal marriage financial benefits afforded by the state you live in, to be able to f*** without a condom and be 100% for sure you wont catch anything, a family health care plan that covers your woman and child because you're married, .... i could quite literally list 100 other things but I think the point may be sinking in.

Dude, if marriage went like this even 10% of the time, I'd be all for it, and searching high and low for another wife. The fact is, most women are incapable of doing that, married or not. Some put on this as a temporary camoflage to get their wedding, their house, or whatever. But in most cases, this uncomfortable exoskeleton is quickly shed regardless of what the man does.

It sounds like you have a very rare, high quality wife. You are lucky. Count your blessings. Few men get what they bargained for a few years into the marriage. There is no way to predict whether they are sold a bad bill of goods until it's too late. You should see my neighbors - The women they married are nowhere near the women they became later. There are a lot of selfish, immature women who either make their men miserable or decide that they really didn't want to get married after the fact. I've seen a ton of marriages turn out like this - when any thinking person would've thought his wife was great marriage material.

Remember, "women get married expecting that their husband will change and he doesn't. Men get married thinking their wife WON'T change, and she does."

People like Francisco would have you believe you could get a woman to do most all of this without a ring on her finger, but that's only going to happen when you dream at night.

I don't think you could get most MARRIED women with a ring on their finger, a house in their name and a $50,000 a month trust fund to do most of this. Again, I think it has much more to do with the character and quality of the woman in question than it does of social/legal constructs like marriage.

 

[azanon]

I don't think that's true. Modern western women are just as good, if not better than men, at trashing a marriage. At least 45 - 50% of the broken marriages in which I've been a close spectator, mine included, have been 100% the woman's fault.

I agree with that. That had nothing to do with my recognition that of the specific people posting against marriage here mostly fall in those categories I listed though.

Dude, if marriage went like this even 10% of the time, I'd be all for it, and searching high and low for another wife. The fact is, most women are incapable of doing that, married or not. Some put on this as a temporary camoflage to get their wedding, their house, or whatever. But in most cases, this uncomfortable exoskeleton is quickly shed regardless of what the man does.

It sounds like you have a very rare, high quality wife. You are lucky. Count your blessings. Few men get what they bargained for a few years into the marriage. There is no way to predict whether they are sold a bad bill of goods until it's too late. You should see my neighbors - The women they married are nowhere near the women they became later. There are a lot of selfish, immature women who either make their men miserable or decide that they really didn't want to get married after the fact. I've seen a ton of marriages turn out like this - when any thinking person would've thought his wife was great marriage material.

I'll agree that 90% of the women out there probably aren't worth marrying. Thus, that would be consistent with what you're saying. But, I'm operating under the assumption that the mature men participating in this forum are not your average guys. Many of you seem on top of your game, so maybe many of you are or can be the exception too.

Yeah, my wife is a great person. I'm not half the person she is (morally speaking), and yeah i dont deserve her. So, yeah i agree i am blessed in that regard.

Remember, "women get married expecting that their husband will change and he doesn't. Men get married thinking their wife WON'T change, and she does."

Of course i've heard this catchy phrase before, and it has a nice ring to it. What was strange though was that it turned out being exactly the opposite in our case. She "improved" yeah, but the core is the same. I improved too (I hope), but i made some pretty major changes. At times, its been hard for her to adjust because all of my changes weren't to her liking, but love is keeping the bond there.

I don't think you could get most MARRIED women with a ring on their finger, a house in their name and a $50,000 a month trust fund to do most of this. Again, I think it has much more to do with the character and quality of the woman in question than it does of social/legal constructs like marriage.

Again, i'll agree with that. Restated, at least 90% of the women out there I wouldnt even consider marrying. I'll admit too i didnt necessary know she'd do my laundry before i married her (for example). But you're right, if you examine their character really closely, you can have a pretty good idea of what you're getting into before you marry them.

Bottom line, just keep the options open. Who knows; you might find a keeper when you hit 21. I think it would be sad to turn her down simply because one made an arbitrary rule that marrying, say before 28, is a mistake. The sex can be great with the same woman too. Sure, it wont always be "infatuation stage" sex, but it can be great though.