A Better Understanding of Women - The Saga Continues

[BlackJackal]

Not sure which ones are true. She's 24 - a few months older than me. You may be right though, as a lot of stuff comes out when you're drunk. For instance, for her birthday we went out to a bar where a band was playing that night. It got pretty packed, I go to the bathroom, come back and apparently she was up on stage dancing with the band. Later that night a bunch of people (girls) got up there, and she did too. Then she puts up pictures of that on the net. Then she went to talk to a group of dudes and her best friend came up to me like "are you gonna let your gf talk to all those guys like that?" Sound AW to you?

I'm really trying to approach this objectively.

Also, we just had a quick phone convo, including plans to go out this Friday, and a couple interesting things were said.

Such as: she's moving some furniture Saturday morning and since she assumed I would stay the night (I usually do), she assumed I would help her move it. I made a joke of it like "oh really what makes you think I'm gonna stay the night", to which she kinda laughs and replies "well I just thought you would, you usually do, but I know plenty of guys who could help me". Umm ...

I also think the point of that entire phone call (a lot of which revolved around her buying this new furniture) was basically seeing if I would help her move her sh!t.

I'd like some outside opinions on this. Already got a few other prospects ready to go if I decide to back off a bit.

Lol....I love how women think they're slick. Hell yeah she was tryin to get you to move her stuff. She tried to lure you there with sex first and when that didn't work, she tried to get to you by saying she can get plenty of men she's interested in to do it. I say let her get all the help she wants, and you help yourself with some female company of your own.

I'm serious, you need to withdraw from this girl before you get in too deep with her. From the story you're tellin, somethin aint right.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

...
I guess what I'm getting at is that even in relationships the game doesn't change.

This is true if you choose to engage women who are game players (either they aren't serious or they are genuinely confused). In your case this woman gave you potential red flags early on and her subsequent actions substantiated it.

Examine what she has done:

• She asked if the two of you were exclusive because she was still being asked out on dates.
• She's becoming complacent.
• Subsequently she's becoming angry seemingly for no reason.
• She feels vulnerable.
• She feels that she has no power.

The flags were:

• If she was truly interested in you she would have made more of an effort to pursue you instead of asking the status of your relationship. Guess what she would had done if you said that you weren't interested and how quickly she would have done it.
• One you committed she acted as she was in a "safe zone." She had you so why fain excitement when she sees you? Typically this is where men fall short but women can do it too.
• Complacency breeds contempt. People will get angry "just because" when they feel that their expectations aren't being met. Not saying her expectations are reasonable, just that they weren't being met to her liking.
• Her vulnerability and lack of control is intrinsic, it is with everyone. However, so many people believe that external influences (and possibly controlling them) may help alleviate the feeling (refer to the first bullet point in this section).
• She needs proof to feel powerful and she's not feeling it from the relationship (external influence). So what does she do? She flirts with other guys to get that influence. She even knows what she's doing (and why she is doing it) isn't fair to you so she reaffirms that she's going home with you in spite of her (meaningless) indiscretions.

So here's my take on it; this woman has some things to deal with internally in order to be genuine and authentic in a relationship. Is this true with all women? No, but perhaps most (along with men). The difference is how they decide to work on those things. The key is whether or not they recognize that they have things to work on.

 

[muscleman]

Thanks for the feedback guys, I really appreciate it - some great stuff here. Fran - so what do you recommend? I already made plans with her for tomorrow and I'm not gonna back off; I want to see how it goes. I do however have a few semi-scheduled plans with some other girls I'm strongly considering following up on after this, just to clear my head and regain some power (in my own mind).

After a year of this DJ stuff, I find myself still lost and confused with seemingly simple things like this ...

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Thanks for the feedback guys, I really appreciate it - some great stuff here. Fran - so what do you recommend? I already made plans with her for tomorrow and I'm not gonna back off; I want to see how it goes.

Good for you, no reason to back off; just take off the filters in order to truly see the person you're "dating." Keep in mind what she has said along with what she does, we all know that actions speaking louder than words. Something tells me that you are going to notice more of the subtleties of women (at least this one for now).

I do however have a few semi-scheduled plans with some other girls I'm strongly considering following up on after this, just to clear my head and regain some power (in my own mind).

This is one of the best things you can do. It'll allow you to compare apples to apples (or grapefruits if she's well endowed). But remember, you're supposed to be spoken for. Keep in mind the "concept" of still coming home to your girl. One other thing, consider changing your frame from one of it being a power struggle. It's only that way if you believe that men and women are equal in a relationship; they aren't, they're different. [/quote]

After a year of this DJ stuff, I find myself still lost and confused with seemingly simple things like this ...

What may work for you is regaining the feeling of control over yourself and your actions, it seems that you are second guessing your choice to follow her lead in committing. Don't feel that you have to date every woman who would like to put you on her mantle, don't forget guys can reject women too.

Another thing you can do is get a good definition of what a quality woman is to you. Well beyond looks there are underlying, under the surface types of things that can make your relationship easy or a pain. But once you have control of your actions and a definite idea of quality, it'll be much easier to foresee whether a woman is trouble, short term amusement or relationship potential.

 

[muscleman]

Well fellas, I'm leaving for my date. Should be good. Then again it's just us two and those always work out well. I'll keep you all updated. Thanks again for the feedback.

 

[muscleman]

Ahhh so the truth comes out. Interesting night/morning. So we got to drinking and talking, and oh my my what do we have here: she had a fvcked up childhood. Now the puzzle is complete. It makes sense why she can't seem to have a normal relationship. And despite all her "I'm sorries and I need to work on stuff" tales she continues to show next to no appreciation for what I do for her. I'm going to cool off for a few days.

I'll continue seeing her because she is fun to be around, but it's definitely goiing into casual mode now and I'm off to do some comparison shopping.

I don't get it though: am I just a magnet for fvcked up chicks or are the majority of them just like that?!? Kinda sad really ...

 

[Last Man Standing]

Never become exclusive with a hor!!!! Exclusivity only belongs to virgins!!!

 

[wayword]

Ahhh so the truth comes out. Interesting night/morning. So we got to drinking and talking, and oh my my what do we have here: she had a fvcked up childhood. Now the puzzle is complete. It makes sense why she can't seem to have a normal relationship. And despite all her "I'm sorries and I need to work on stuff" tales she continues to show next to no appreciation for what I do for her. I'm going to cool off for a few days.

He he, welcome to the wonderful world of AWs! So, did there just happen to be any daddy issues fvcking up her childhood, here?

 

[BlackJackal]

Ahhh so the truth comes out. Interesting night/morning. So we got to drinking and talking, and oh my my what do we have here: she had a fvcked up childhood. Now the puzzle is complete. It makes sense why she can't seem to have a normal relationship. And despite all her "I'm sorries and I need to work on stuff" tales she continues to show next to no appreciation for what I do for her. I'm going to cool off for a few days.

I'll continue seeing her because she is fun to be around, but it's definitely goiing into casual mode now and I'm off to do some comparison shopping.

I don't get it though: am I just a magnet for fvcked up chicks or are the majority of them just like that?!? Kinda sad really ...

I could've told you that. The whole fvcked up childhood story is pretty common. So common it holds know merit at all, and becomes an excuse to do stupid ****. If she shows know appreciation to your efforts, then find one who does.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

...I don't get it though: am I just a magnet for fvcked up chicks or are the majority of them just like that?!? Kinda sad really ...

I think that you may still have an air of "nice guy" about you. Slow down while you do your comparative shopping and ease back doing so much for these women. It's clouding your ability to see what these women are really about.

 

[ricorico]

I could've told you that. The whole fvcked up childhood story is pretty common. So common it holds know merit at all, and becomes an excuse to do stupid ****. If she shows know appreciation to your efforts, then find one who does.

Yep,

There are a lot of beautiful messed up chicks out there. This chick and others like her will usually end up settling for a guy way below her league in people's eyes. The truth is she is such a mental mess he will be dealing with issues forever just to be with her,so he pays.

 

[muscleman]

A bit of an update. I really thought about what you guys were saying, and I held off on jumping the gun. Several of my female friends called me up saturday night to hang out, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it. We decided we were gonna be exclusive, and I can't find it in me (at least not at this point in my life) to go behind someone's back. I also have a reputation to protect.

We talked things over, among other things, that night. I brought up my concerns about things I won't put up with and some specific examples that pissed me off. However, she made a good point too: I've never really expressed those things - I would just get mad because I assumed they were a given and then not talk about them. Right now I'm a little confused if this whole thing was just a way to "even the score" or if I really could have communicated better that I was upset and why.

Anyway, she's out of town for a few days and I have some time to think. I do want to give things a try, and I haven't really been open. But then again, how open are you supposed to be? I mean that's the kind of sh!t that gets you burned. I also thought about the positives:

-she does treat me well (cooks breakfast if I stay over without me asking, easily pays for half our stuff, is overall pretty submissive and if I want to do something specific she almost always agrees, we go see my movies, etc)
-she's fun to be around (we joke all the time and I feel comfortable around her)
-the sex is bomb

It's just a wee bit hard for me to settle into a relationship after a year of being single & dating. Another thing - I'm 23 and she's only a few months older. I know I'll probably get the "well what do you want" line, well the thing is I'm not sure at this point. It's been a while since I've had a gf. But the single life is tempting. It's a classic case of the grass is always greener ...

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

...We talked things over, among other things, that night. I brought up my concerns about things I won't put up with and some specific examples that pissed me off. However, she made a good point too: I've never really expressed those things - I would just get mad because I assumed they were a given and then not talk about them. Right now I'm a little confused if this whole thing was just a way to "even the score" or if I really could have communicated better that I was upset and why....

Good job in keeping yourself honest. Should something be said that she was able to turn the tables in that your issues with her are actually your problems? Ummm... Nahhh, that'll be one that comes back to the top a couple of times after trying to flush it.

So let's take it from the angle that you should have told her earlier and that's why she kept doing those things; makes sense, right? But how about this, she does those things because it is of her nature, her personal character. They weren't mistakes, they weren't a one time oversight; they were things she does/says naturally. Is it fair to believe that because you had a talk (where it was agreed that you were at fault) she will be able to change her nature with things having nothing to do with you (her lack of power, anger et al.)?

Giving her the benefit of the doubt, in the future let her know when she steps out of line (as long as it's nothing trivial). In the meantime continue to observe her actions and don't get clouded by all of the "nice" things that she does. They're all good at the surface (more women should do those things) but the issues that she has lie below the surface. Keep a watchful eye.

 

[Last Man Standing]

Surely, your title is meant to say, "A better understanding of hors!!!" She is a hor - thus treat her as such!!! Never let a woman or a hor disrespect you - especially in public!!!!!!

She disrespected you! Be a pimp and set the public parameters of engagement!!

 

[Destiny17]

Don't feel obligated to tie yourself down, you might regret it. Look at Tucker Max, he's not single anymore, but the world is a much happier place that he stayed single for so long.

 

[BlackJackal]

A bit of an update. I really thought about what you guys were saying, and I held off on jumping the gun. Several of my female friends called me up saturday night to hang out, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it. We decided we were gonna be exclusive, and I can't find it in me (at least not at this point in my life) to go behind someone's back. I also have a reputation to protect.

We talked things over, among other things, that night. I brought up my concerns about things I won't put up with and some specific examples that pissed me off. However, she made a good point too: I've never really expressed those things - I would just get mad because I assumed they were a given and then not talk about them. Right now I'm a little confused if this whole thing was just a way to "even the score" or if I really could have communicated better that I was upset and why.

Anyway, she's out of town for a few days and I have some time to think. I do want to give things a try, and I haven't really been open. But then again, how open are you supposed to be? I mean that's the kind of sh!t that gets you burned. I also thought about the positives:

-she does treat me well (cooks breakfast if I stay over without me asking, easily pays for half our stuff, is overall pretty submissive and if I want to do something specific she almost always agrees, we go see my movies, etc)
-she's fun to be around (we joke all the time and I feel comfortable around her)
-the sex is bomb

It's just a wee bit hard for me to settle into a relationship after a year of being single & dating. Another thing - I'm 23 and she's only a few months older. I know I'll probably get the "well what do you want" line, well the thing is I'm not sure at this point. It's been a while since I've had a gf. But the single life is tempting. It's a classic case of the grass is always greener ...

I'm amazed in how she managed to turn the whole thing on you. As if you should have to tell her to not do that piss you off. You dont just do stuff like that to a person. And if you're not sure you want to be exclusive, then you shouldn't be exclusive. Half hearted moves bring disaster. All those nice things maybe cool, but they tend to cover up the truth.

Whatever your decision, just be on your ****.

 

[muscleman]

Thanks for the feedback guys, I'm sure this will go on for a little bit. I guess I'm in one of those confused stages. And I really am trying to see this from a more objective side. So here's the deal:

Me and a couple of her friends are going up to see her this weekend. We're all gonna chill for a couple nights and hit up some bars/maybe parties? This will basically make it or break it. Francisco I do agree with what you have to say. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, even if it is at some expense to myself. We had the conversation, I brought up the fact that I won't tolerate it, and now it's just a matter of observing. If there's so much as a hint of this behaviour this weekend, I'm calling it off. Hell, I'm not even sure I need to be in a relationship right now.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

... This will basically make it or break it. Francisco I do agree with what you have to say. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, even if it is at some expense to myself. We had the conversation, I brought up the fact that I won't tolerate it, and now it's just a matter of observing. If there's so much as a hint of this behaviour this weekend, I'm calling it off. Hell, I'm not even sure I need to be in a relationship right now.

No matter what you choose to do this will be a good learning experience about qualifying women, identifying and addressing potential problems and taking action on the results. The goal isn't to pick the perfect woman the first time around (easier said than done), it's to identify the obvious wrong ones if they slip in.

 

[muscleman]

The goal isn't to pick the perfect woman the first time around (easier said than done), it's to identify the obvious wrong ones if they slip in.

How about the 8th time around?

 

[muscleman]

BlackJackal I kinda know what you're saying. I just keep feeling something isn't right. You know that sick feeling you get in your stomach? Well I have that.

I have a problem though. I have an addictive personality which has been a blessing and a curse. A blessing when put to something good (like weightlifting, learning new things, etc) and a curse otherwise (video game addiction, getting way too involved with girls). It's something I'm working on, but if I hang around a girl for a while, even if it's just 2-3 months 1-2x/week, I get attached. It seems like it doesn't even matter if things are great or they suck .. I get attached anyway given enough time.

And with this girl I'm not 100% like you said. I can't even think logically. One second I'm fully content thinking she really does miss me like she says and she really is doing all those things for me to please me and show me that she wants to be with me rather than covering up deeper issues. The other second I'm thinking about all the red flags and all the less-than-ideal parts that make her up. I seriously think about staying with her long term one moment and dumping her on the spot the next. Does anyone else ever go through this?




On a side note, here are a few things I thought I should mention. Maybe they'll help the more experienced members here give me some better insight:

-why did she tell me about her messed up childhood? she was sexually abused at a young age. she also said after the whole emotional conversation that "I don't want pity from anyone" as if I'd pity her for it (given the details, you might actually)

-when I was telling her about the whole flirting with other guys thing being belittleling, she was acting all understanding like "yea you're right, you have every reason to be mad, it's something I need to work on and I was drunk and didn't even know I was doing it" umm...

-that whole conversation felt like a disarmament now that I think about it: basically her telling me that when something bothers me I should be more tactful about bringing it up and I should bring it up in the first place. part of me thinks she's right - I probably shouldn't just stay silent and flip out (when we came back that night she was so drunk we passed out, so no sex for me, and I pretty much got up to leave without a word the next morning but she woke up all startled and we talked/I ended up staying)

-also during the conversation some things she said just made me feel like she wasn't very serious about us to begin with even though she said "I feel like I'm more serious about this than you". comments such as "I understand what you mean about giving up the single life and being exclusive being hard. but (and in a nonchalant tone) it's a choice you made. but if you don't want to be exclusive you need to let me know". <-- is that something a girl who was serious would even say? I mean damn, if I said that to one of my previous gf's she would straight up flip out if she knew I was even thinking about going back to being casual. During that entire conversation I felt like she really didn't even care that much. As if losing me was "ok" by her. Hell, maybe it is. But is that how an interested girl would really act?

And here's the KICKER. When we first started dating, she (as I now know) thought I was an "as5hole" who only wanted to get some. Yet she went along with it and gave it up the first night we hung out. It was apparently my "meathead *******ness"/alphaness? that got into her pants and started this whole thing. And if she gave it up to me despite thinking I just wanted a lay (which at the time I did), what would keep her from doing the same with someone else? She even told me later she didn't think I was going to call her back and that I didn't turn out to be the person she thought at all. Maybe she's right. Maybe I am still too nice on the inside. Still a big chunk of AFC left once I get serious.

EDIT: also I just realized something that may have been an oversight. When we first decided exclusivity (on the pretense that a guy she's known for a while really wanted to have sex with her that night but she turned him down .. at least that's what she told me) it was pretty much her saying this: "are we dating other people? cause I don't want to feel like a retard and turn people down if you're seeing other girls". but then she did say "cause honestly I don't want to see anyone else" hmm

And here's another thing that bothers me. Initially I left it out, but I guess it needs to be said. This past weekend I helped her move a couple pieces of furniture. They had to go to her parents' house for logistical reasons. On the way there, she tells me and her best friend/future roommate that they will introduce me as simply "X", not her boyfriend or anything. The explanation was that since her parents are Jahova's witnesses and her mom "has a dream of her marrying another witness" it would "break their heart" and could possibly prevent them from talking to her again. Now ... part of me sympathizes, if it was really that bad. But on the other had, what the FVCK?!?! If you were really serious about someone, or even half way serious, why on earth wouldn't you show them off to your parents/be PROUD of them?!? Even her friend got kinda silent on the phone when she heard this, and kinda looked at me with "wtf eyes" when we were there. Yea I know we've only been dating a while and this is "serious", but she's the one who told me "I feel like I'm taking this relatioship more seriously than you". Yea ok.

Fortunately/unfortunately the sex is pretty much the best I've had, which also complicates things. But even that has some interesting nuances. When we were discussing fantasies one day, she mentioned wanting to have a threesome with me and her best friend. Except, her best friend is engaged. Of course the other dude wants to have a threesome too, with his fiancee and my gf. And the thing is, my gf agreed to having a threesome with them if she/I could have a threesome with his girl. First time I heard that detail I was like hmmmm. So she gets two threesomes eh? None of this is actually happening because he doesn't want to share his fiancee with me and keep it fair and I understand, but the part that bugs me is that she was down for doing it with me AND him. What have I gotten myself into...

Have I really lost the DJ edge with this girl? Is she even serious? How do you test this? I mean, after everything I've learned sometimes I feel I've become completely lost. Hell, sometimes I don't even feel alpha. I think of alpha role models, like leaders/kings/contemporary figures like James Bond and I can't ever imagine any of them only settling with 1 girl. As for my plan, it remains the same. I'll work on my own stuff the next few days and when we go up this weekend I'll see how things go and make a decision.

Here's the part that sounds kinda fvcked up and I realize it: I want to date her, but casually. I want to see other girls. She's fun, but there seem to be a lot of red flags as far as monogomous long term relationship goes. This may be a possibility. If I brought it up, I wouldn't be surprised if she'd be down for it. But here's the messed up part. I don't want her having sex with other guys, even though I'm ok having sex with other girls. Wicked huh?

Someone help me out with some wise words, for the love of God. I'm going lightweight crazy. I also wrote this as it came to mind, so if it doesn't make much [sequential] sense, my bad.