5x5 Strength Training

[SinJester]

Hey I'm wondering what people think of this program: http://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5x5-beginner-strength-training-program/

Workout A Workout B
Squat 5x5 Squat 5x5
Bench Press 5x5 Overhead Press 5x5
Inverted Rows 3xF Deadlift 1x5
Push-ups 3xF Pull-ups/Chin-ups 3xF
Reverse Crunch 3x12 Prone Bridges 3x30sec

Just from everything I've read (which is probably too much) doing squats in both works outs (doing the 3 times a week) seems like way too much. One of the threads in the Vault points to this workout that also has squats in both sessions. Opinions?

Also doing pushups to failiure and prone bridges doesn't seem like it would gain much weight. Although it may be because the workout is just for gaining muscle (the perspective I'm coming from)

Another reason I'm asking is because I just read Scrawny To Brawny which seems like it has a lot of great information in it. The authors reccomend doing 5x5 for most exercises as well.

Basically as soon as I can I'm cutting all the half assed attempts and wishes I've made before and joining the gym. I know any workout is better than none but I'm looking for the best place to start. There's tons of great information out there, the problem is just that most of it contradicts the rest. I know the basics (heavy lifts, low reps, compund lifts, east big). Just looking for a solid program to startw with (considering I'm a total beginner).

 

[yungahdubz]

Squatting 3x a week won't be too much if you start out with just the bar mate. You have to focus on form though.

And the Push ups, once you can do a set of 15 you add weight, so it would be 3x15 weighted push ups.

Stronglifts is good for gaining weight if you eat like a beast.

I'm no expert, but the new 5x5 version isn't that great imo, no barbell rows , just my noobie thoughts though.

Maybe Ripptoe would be better.

 

[Quagmire911]

Give it a shot and see how it works for you. Personally I would do Rippetoe's as you are less likely to burn out and should gain for longer. With the squatting 3x a week, calories need to be high.

As you progress from a rank beginner the heavy squats 3x a week will become too much. In this case you can either regulate the intensity, or switch to a three day split (there is one in the vault, and there are several on Ironaddicts.com).

Make a log if you wish, good luck.

 

[SinJester]

Cheers. I've got the diet pretty much worked out it's just the routine that confusing me because like I said everyone disagrees with each other. I know that the important part is starting and consistency, but I have a tendency to research things too much!

Ripptoe's looks fine its only the squats that had me scratching my head. I don't see the point on squatting just the bar for very long if someone plans to gain weight. It's just that I think 3 times a week would burn me out too much, regardless of how much I eat. Then again I am a complete newb and don't know how much weight I'll be (should be?) lifting.

Warboss Alex posted this 3 day split in the vault (might have been what you were referring to Quagmire:

Sample 3day Split

Back, Biceps (I prefer back/biceps on Monday because I get two full days of rest after squats on Friday)
Standing Barbell Curl
Hammer Curl
Lat Pulldown
Deadlift

Chest, Triceps
Flat Db Press
Incline Barbell Press
Close Grip Bench or Skullcrushers (I prefer CG bench)
You can do some abs here too if you like.

Legs, Shoulders
Military Press or DB press
Sumo Leg Press or Hamstring Curl
Calf Raise
Barbell Squats

Sets/reps: 3 sets of 8-12 reps on each exercise (15-20 for calf raise), make it 3x8 for floor deadlifts depending on the weight you push (if it's heavy you can do 3x6 or 3x5), squats 3x6-8.

I'm wondering if that would be better to start on. Also the other routine I referred to as the starting program in Scrawny To Brawny is:

Workout A
Barbell Front Squat 5.5
Incline bench press 5.5
Bulgarian split squat 2x6-8
One arm row 2x6-8

Workout B
Chinup 5x5
Hang Clean & Press 5x5
Cable Pull Throughs 2x6-8
Weighted situps 2x6-8

Workput C
Elevated Trap Bar Deadlift 5x5
Dips 5x5
Cable rows 6-8
Reverse Hypers 2x6-8

I think at this stage the question isn't about which routine (as they are all fairly similar), as it seems I'm just confused about how many reps and sets I should be doing.

I'll make a journal when I start but that will be a little while as I'm still doing physio to get back to my base level of strength.

 

[Quagmire911]

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=125444

You don't have to start off squatting 3x a week, many don't. Myself and Stallion started out on something similar to "Option B" above and it served us very well, others included.

DAY 1(eg. Monday)
Squats 2 x 5
Squats or Leg Press 1 x 15 (lighter weight)
Good Mornings or Stiff Leg Deadlifts or Sumo Leg Press 2 x 10-15
Glute Ham Raise or Pullthroughs or Hyperextension 2 x 8
Calf Raises 2 x 10

DAY 2(eg. Wednesday)
Incline Press 2 x 5
Dumbbell Press (Flat/Decline) or Dips 2 x 8-10
Shoulder Press 2 x 8-12
Tricep Exercise 2 x 10-15

DAY 3(eg. Friday)
Deadlifts 2 x 5
Row or Chinup/Pulldown 2 x 8
Bicep Curl 2 x 8-10
Forearm Exercise 2 x 10-15

 

[wolf116]

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=125444

You don't have to start off squatting 3x a week, many don't. Myself and Stallion started out on something similar to "Option B" above and it served us very well, others included.

DAY 1(eg. Monday)
Squats 2 x 5
Squats or Leg Press 1 x 15 (lighter weight)
Good Mornings or Stiff Leg Deadlifts or Sumo Leg Press 2 x 10-15
Glute Ham Raise or Pullthroughs or Hyperextension 2 x 8
Calf Raises 2 x 10

DAY 2(eg. Wednesday)
Incline Press 2 x 5
Dumbbell Press (Flat/Decline) or Dips 2 x 8-10
Shoulder Press 2 x 8-12
Tricep Exercise 2 x 10-15

DAY 3(eg. Friday)
Deadlifts 2 x 5
Row or Chinup/Pulldown 2 x 8
Bicep Curl 2 x 8-10
Forearm Exercise 2 x 10-15

I did variations of this for a year with good results.
I really enjoyed this program.

 

[noodle]

I'm doing rippetoe right now, trust me you can do 3x squats a week.
At first it might be hard, but as long as you get the form/diet down your body will recover in time. Your body will adapt.

 

[future_strongguy]

Stronglifts 5x5 is solid. Do yourself and start as light as possible for all exercises to avoid injury. It'll be worth it.

 

[SinJester]

Cheers guys. I did a lot of looking around the place. Rippetoe seems that way to go to start with. I didn't realize it's designed for beginners. I got myself a copy of Starting Strength too. Interestingly enough Rippetoe also recommends a 5x5 program.

I don't think I need to worry about bicep, tricep or forearm exercises for awhile. Dips and pull ups aren't even really necessary for the first couple weeks. Keep in mind nothing I'm talking about comes from experience, just research. I'll probably move into a 3 day split when I've built up a base of strength. Although before I thought anything more than that would burn me out, apparently newbies can get away with a lot.

 

[wolf116]

If you follow the the "where to start" sticky (Rippetoe is option A) and log your workouts. After the 12 weeks is up, some of the experienced guys can assess what program/modifications are right for you based on your strengths and weaknesses.

 

[SinJester]

Yeah Wolf I read that and most of the threads in the sticky. The thing was I also read a few books, asked different people for advice and read articles on different forums. It made me more confused about what to do but in the end I think I'm better off from it because I understand a lot more. Of course that would all be wasted if I didn't actually put the effort in the gym. I'm just not the type to follow something blindly unless I know a lot about it, which has actually caused me a few problems.

Kerpal what's in Practical Programming?

Also seeing as you guys know your stuff I might as well get as much knowledge as I can. Before I start lifting should I do a pre-program with bodyweight and flexibility exercises considering I've been sedetary for so long? And since I have broken my leg will I be safe doing the exercises one it fully heals? Any suggestion on what I should do to strengthen it before I start heavy lifting if anyone has experience with that kind of thing? Don't worry I'll seek medical advice on that too, it's just that my doctor doesn't lift weights.

 

[Quiksilver]

I'd spend 6-8 weeks trying to do as much as possible. Get in the gym day in/day out, do plenty of freeweight and bodyweight movements, as many sets and reps as you want. Get in the gym and just have fun lifting as many weights as possible. I'd do this 4 days a week, do cardio sessions as well. Kill yourself 4 days a week with freeweights, then hit up different kinds of cardio after each weight session. Try out sprints, jogging, walking, elliptical, high intensity, low intensity, do some resistance cardio too: stuff like sled pulling, tire flipping, farmers' walks, DB walking lunges. Just kill yourself in the gym 4 times every 7 days. If you need an extra day off, take it, then start back with more intensity. Good exercises that you should do plenty of: Dips, Pullups/chinups, barbell squats, deadlifts, flat/incline bench press, military press, overhead press, shoulder press, bent-over rows, upright rows, BB/DB lunges, floor presses, hyperextensions, weighted situps, bicep curls, close grip bench press. After each session, spend 5-10 minutes really stretching out the body parts you worked that day. Then go on to cardio, then go home.

See what I'm sayin?

Go in to the gym 4 days a week and do whatever you have energy for.

The logic behind this is spending up to two months building cardiovascular and muscular endurance/stamina. Essentially you want to raise your work capacity and recovery ability. Doing this sort of "insane" type of workout where you just go in and do whatever you have energy for will help prevent injury when you start to do some more intelligent strength training/muscle building.

I experienced the most success strength training after spending 4 months in the highschool gym just lifting weights. I was also doing heaps and heaps of cardio. Sprinting, 30 minute intervals, 1 hour walks, 10 minute jogs, etc. By the time I got around to doing some real strength training my conditioning was already great.

I'm almost at the point where I can say doing any sort of true strength training where you're PRing every week is stupid unless you're in great shape and have good muscular and cardio conditioning.

You said you're rather out of shape and coming off a sedentary lifestyle? From pretty much September 2007 through July 2008 I was fairly sedentary, and getting into strength training isn't much fun when you're not in shape, so I'd put that as your first priority.

 

[Quiksilver]

Getting in shape is easy, the hard part is simply doing it.

1. Hit the gym 4-5x a week, as I said above just do whatever you want in terms of weights. Any number of sets, and number of reps, etc. Obviously make the most of your time in there and use freeweights instead of machines.
Each workout can be 40 - 90 minutes, I wouldn't go beyond. Really you don't want to go above 60 minutes, but for the purpose of getting in shape... longer is better.

2. Do various types of cardio 4-5x a week. Vary your intensity. One day do 1 hour on the elliptical at a steady pace, the next day do 30 minutes of intervals on the treadmill, the next day do 10 minutes of moderate-high intensity on the rowing machine, the next day go outside and do sprints on a piece of pavement. Sprint back and forth for 1 minute, take a 2 minute break, sprint 1 minute, 2 min break, 1 min, etc. Work your way up to 5-8 minutes of sprinting.

3. Eat when you're hungry. Don't worry about bodyfat or muscle for these 6-8 weeks. Just focus on eating enough to fuel yourself. Chances are since you're coming off a sedentary period, you're going to gain a couple pounds of muscle and lose a few lbs of fat. Probably even more than a few lbs, depending on how fat you are. Again follow the principles of high protein/high fat/low carb approach. Eat carbs when you feel you need them though, don't deprive yourself just yet.

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After the 6-8 weeks, take a week off. The week after your break, do some max testing a la Where To Start thread, then jump in to strength training.

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If you're looking for more guidelines or programs for the 6-8 weeks, check out some sort of Crossfit type routine. Personally though, I'd just listen to my body and try to push myself every day, with weights, cardio, and eating.

Rosstraining.com would also be a help.

I'm probably going to get flamed for this post, but I firmly believe that spending some time getting into shape is a good first step for everyone, especially before diving into strength training

 

[future_strongguy]

Getting in shape is easy, the hard part is simply doing it.

1. Hit the gym 4-5x a week, as I said above just do whatever you want in terms of weights. Any number of sets, and number of reps, etc. Obviously make the most of your time in there and use freeweights instead of machines.
Each workout can be 40 - 90 minutes, I wouldn't go beyond. Really you don't want to go above 60 minutes, but for the purpose of getting in shape... longer is better.

2. Do various types of cardio 4-5x a week. Vary your intensity. One day do 1 hour on the elliptical at a steady pace, the next day do 30 minutes of intervals on the treadmill, the next day do 10 minutes of moderate-high intensity on the rowing machine, the next day go outside and do sprints on a piece of pavement. Sprint back and forth for 1 minute, take a 2 minute break, sprint 1 minute, 2 min break, 1 min, etc. Work your way up to 5-8 minutes of sprinting.

3. Eat when you're hungry. Don't worry about bodyfat or muscle for these 6-8 weeks. Just focus on eating enough to fuel yourself. Chances are since you're coming off a sedentary period, you're going to gain a couple pounds of muscle and lose a few lbs of fat. Probably even more than a few lbs, depending on how fat you are. Again follow the principles of high protein/high fat/low carb approach. Eat carbs when you feel you need them though, don't deprive yourself just yet.

---
---

After the 6-8 weeks, take a week off. The week after your break, do some max testing a la Where To Start thread, then jump in to strength training.

--

If you're looking for more guidelines or programs for the 6-8 weeks, check out some sort of Crossfit type routine. Personally though, I'd just listen to my body and try to push myself every day, with weights, cardio, and eating.

Rosstraining.com would also be a help.

I'm probably going to get flamed for this post, but I firmly believe that spending some time getting into shape is a good first step for everyone, especially before diving into strength training

That's a good idea. Beginners need to start off light, not with a Max testing week... Voluminous work at a moderate intensity needs to be done before strenuous loading, because joints and ligaments don't strengthen as fast as muscles (this is taken directly from one of Ross's books). This, I feel, is why so many people get injured on MR's 3x5 or SL 5x5, because they start at weights that are too heavy, or they are so weak that the barbell itself is too heavy.

I also like the idea of starting easy with cardio. Many people start off with intense sprints, and are too tired to wake up the next morning! The journey of a thousand miles starts with one step Also I feel you're spot on about eating. A lot of people worry too much about how many calories or what kind of calories they are getting each day. This obsession is as bad as the fat people who eat all day! Your body knows when to eat, and knows when to stop.

You shouldn't get flamed. Ross wrote almost exactly what you said in Never Gymeless.

 

[JohnnyIrish]

A tip from my personal experience is every time I lifted after not lifting for awhile I get REAL bad doms (last for a week +) if I'm not careful so when you first start lifting make sure your going real light.. ease your way into heavier weights slowly. Don't go gang busters your first day or first week.. because if your like me.. you'll be outa commission for the following week sore as **** and whining. lol

Just my 2 cents. Good luck dude!

 

[SinJester]

Hey guys thanks I just realized how stupid it would be to jump into anything without some basic conditioning taking it slow. Considering how I've had a broken leg, infection, a sh!tload of antibiotics and I've been so sedentary for so long. Even what you describe Quicksilver will take me awhile to work up to if I don't want to end up killing myself (literally).

 

[LoneSilver]

Mark Rippetoe answered this exact question on squatting 3 x per week heres the link

http://strengthmill.net/forum/showthread.php?t=301

LoneSilver

 

[mrRuckus]

Let me just say that you don't need to understand it. You don't NEED to understand squatting three times a week for it to be very effective. I don't get what the hell a doctor or dentist does but they make my booboo stop hurting.

Rippetoe has been teaching rank beginners (like 12 year olds on up) for years with great success and as he defines "beginner" his method gets results the quickest for the vast majority. i.e. workout to workout increases of the same lifts throughout the week as compared to weekly increases. He considers weekly increases to be an intermediate trainer rate of progression. If you can increase multiple times a week why would you WANT to wait a week to go up again? As soon as you recover from a workout it's time to workout again otherwise you are just wasting time.

I have seen logs of guys literally going from squatting in the 100s to squatting 300 something for reps in a year before needing to switch to weekly progressions. I wish I had done Rippetoe's to start rather than doing weekly progressions like "option B" or whatever is posted here. My gains have exploded doing a texas method which is pretty much an intermediate evolution of rippetoe's beginner programs.

Someone mentioned power cleans being in instead of rows. Rippetoe also considers rows an intermediate accessory lift. Your back is not going to lack between doing deadlifts, chins, pullups and power cleans. Power cleans will increase both the power of your deadlift, your back, and your ability to call power on demand. He reluctantly accepts rows for those who refuse to learn to power clean. To me they don't really seem one of the core strength or power exercises and until recently i've barely done them or even chins/pullups much and i assure you my back is not lacking compared to the rest of me. Actually I hate doing rows. I remember actually seeing somewhere or other by like Glenn Pendlay or something of that ilk that most guys waste a ton of time doing things like shrugs when a power movement with less weight like a power shrug would get you 10x the strength/hypertrophy than a shrug would. I think the same principle is in play between rows and power cleans.


Seriously do get Practical Programming. It's like $20, maybe $30 and you'll learn a ton and i don't mean to imply it's some godly book or even the only way to do things or the best for everyone, but i really don't see the point in moving to advanced discussions, plans, or movements until you've exhausted the basics. You should always be gunning for the quickest gains possible and then when those stop, try newer or advanced techniques but still getting the fastest increases that YOU personally are capable of, which as a beginner is very very likely several times a week.


I'm actually still getting beginner progressions on several lifts. For example, I have been adding 1.5-2 lbs to my overhead press twice a week for weeks now. So i have a beginner progression on one lift while using an intermediate progression on my squats and deadlifts.

Also I wouldn't progress to any 5x5 stuff until 3x5 is exhausted. No point in doing more work if 3x5 is enough stimulus.

 

[mrRuckus]

I'm probably going to get flamed for this post, but I firmly believe that spending some time getting into shape is a good first step for everyone, especially before diving into strength training

You don't get flamed. You just get questioned because you give no justification. You just say "it's better" and imply that strength training in itself doesn't condition you, which is ludicrous if that's your real implication.

You are saying that you need to be conditioned to do something before you do it. But that would also mean that you need to be conditioned to run the treadmill before you run the treadmill. What the heck? You can't condition yourself for more without trying to do more.

I might even better accept this premise if you were to say something like to do higher reps for several weeks to prepare the joints and such, but you don't.

 

[EFFORT]

help prevent injury when you start to do some more intelligent strength training/muscle building.

Doing that seems to be a lot more risky for injury and over complicates something that doesn't need to be complicated imo