Good day all,
I found the thread started by RoadWarrior on "puzzling women" very interesting. It has gotten a lot of response and become very long. It also had tangents (which is what vigorous discourse is supposed to produce) into what "I love you" really means and talk-vs-actions. While everyone had a quick observation, no one really went into what kind of women he was dealing with.
There seems to be 3 kinds of women here.
1) The mature. (I.e. One's you want to date.)
2) The "white knight" princess.
3) The Head Game Pro.
Here is my take, and a theory at the end that may finally rid us all of the game playing that goes on between the sexes.
To quote RoadWarrior:
>>"Guys.....have you ever had a girl tell you she loves you and yet refuses to go out with you? It appears to make no sense. A woman with high interest dates you...right...no question. I've always believed this to be the case. I'm not so sure anymore..."<<
Don’t second-guess yourself. A woman with high ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP interest dates you, and continues to want to see you, period.
Interest can only crawl out of the realm of fantasy, and assert itself fully in reality (truth), if action is taken. Otherwise it does not exist except in the HEAD of the individual that conceived it.
If she has high interest and still does not date you, for whatever reason, her interest will NEVER BE REALIZED. How many times is a guy supposed to ask? I mean come on.
If she wants you, she will date you.
To continue…
>>"Over the past three months, six different women have told me they love me...five said, "I love you" directly to my face, the other said it twice to me, both times while my back was to her but directed at me, nonetheless".<<
Looking good buddy! I would be wary of any woman who is free and easy with that "four letter word" though. We all know a woman’s feelings can change in a heartbeat. (Which is why we never say it first.) But that is better than the "pity hug" at the end of the night.
To continue…
>>"Two of these women, I have no interest in whatsoever and I politely told them so when they expressed their feelings to me. Both seem to have accepted I will not be with them, although each continues to hit on me from time to time."<<
*Type #1: The mature women.
What a true gentlemen. Up front and honest, the way it should be. Of course they are still gonna hit on you! You would not give up after the first NO would you? Anything good is worth fighting for! As long as you don’t lead them on by staying CONSISTENT with NON-ROMANTIC actions when you are around them. This is probably just fun for the ladies as you said they flirt "from time to time"(ala 3PO accent in Hoth Base heh heh). They are still trolling for a bite AND because you have wrote them off, you’re DJ skills are probably 110% effective because you are not even trying. No desire right? They are human like anyone else. When you know you have no shot, you totally relax and don’t care. You act more like your true self. That is probably what is happening with these two ladies and your self.
Continuing...
>>"Two of these women I have dated...one I was with for about a month before I broke it off. The other I still continue to see on occasion and although she has told me that she considers me to be her soul mate, I think, deep down she realizes we aren't meant for each other."<<
*Type #2: The "white knight" princess.
Leeeettt me get this straight. You see this woman "occasionally", she has told you she loves you AND considers you her soul mate? Sounds like one of those soap opera fans. They can never come down from that romantic "buzz" once the TV is turned off. She sees something in you and is completely blind to who you truly are. She only sees what she wants to see. (Guys are not immune from this. We place a woman on the "white pedestal".) This kind of woman will have to adjust to reality soon or she will miss the boat entirely, end up divorced from a jerk, or pine over her many suitors who: "did not know how much I loved him. If only I could have helped him see the love we - (I.e. delusional) - shared for each other." Your gut is even telling you that she may feel deep down that you are not meant for each other. You know you aren’t meant for her because you would not have said seeing her only on "occasion". Telling you that you are her soul mate is a very subtle mind game to feed her white knight fantasy. If you have ever talked about being "meant for each other" (with doe in headlight eyes from her), this women is a fairytale drama addict. She will never be able to look at you and see you for who you really are until…. after the wedding. Then the blinders come off and she realizes she has you. She has you. The fantasy is over. No need to go into the messiness that is sure to follow. I try to avoid anyone who even mentions the idea of a soul mate in less than 6 months of dating. I am open to the possibility of finding my soul mate, but one will only truly know for sure in the twilight of your years together. Soul mate implies destiny or heavenly ordained to me. How can you know that after a couple of dates, or a couple months, when it takes spending the next fifty years together. A soul mate is someone who will want to be with you day after day after day, through all the crap. A soul mate is someone you turn too after getting off the phone with your 10th grandchild, looking over at your wife and saying, "I knew we were soul mate’s from the beginning."
Continuing…
>>"The problem is....the other two women....I will call them X and Y...the two that I am the most attracted to....neither will go out with me, although both have told me they love me. X knows I like her but that I am more attracted to Y. Maybe she feels I will dump her to go out with Y and is refusing to date me in order to protect her heart...I don't know."<<
Again. Trust yourself and don’t worry about what the other person is feeling or thinking. If you think X knows you like Y more, especially if you talked about it, that was a BIG no no. No woman wants to be made to feel like choice #2 as Wyldfire alluded to. Always make them feel like #1. She is right thinking you might dump her if you even mentioned Y. You don’t want to hear she is dating other guys do you? You simply accept it with out asking.
Wyldfire actually supplied a lot of insight into this specific head game that some women will play. To quote Wyldfire:
//"The two who refuse to go out with you might be doing that because they think they aren't your "first choice".//
Don’t get me wrong Wyldfire, I agree in theory with your statement. But this is how THEY THINK. It is THEIR PROBLEM, not RoadWarrior’s. Who doesn’t want to feel like they are the number one choice by a potential mate? I know I do. But let’s be realistic. Technically, unless you are 14 to 18 years old, the chances of a woman being "first choice by a man who asks you out is impossible. Even if a guy has dated only one woman in his entire life, the next woman he asks out is his "second choice", regardless if you are aware of her or not. It’s a simple concept. If you are single, there is a good chance of other men/women in your new hottie’s life. To me, if a woman persistently demonstrates this kind of attitude, I head the other way. If a woman feels she is being treated like "#2" by a man’s actions (and no DJ does that because we make all women feel like #1 right?) then she has a right to think he is a player and dump the chump. Just don’t think a man, once he asks you out a couple of times, is going to sit on his a$$ and wait for you to figure out if you are interested in him or not. That would be "nice", but no one wants that, woman or man.
Continuing…
>>"Y, on the other hand knows I'm very attracted to her. She has told me she loves me. I have asked her out twice....both times she bolted on me....no 'yes'....no 'no'....she just smiled at me, said my name and walked away without any explanation. I have been told she is jealous of X and the other woman I date casually (the one who considers me her soul mate).... I don't know.... It makes no sense."<<
*Type #3: The Head Game Pro
And we come full circle.
The one we want is the one we can’t have. She is leading you around like a dog on a leash. She is not even answering your invites with a Yes or No. Does she go "Tee Hee! Oh you!" as well? She may be jealous of X but who cares. If she wanted to date you, she would. Simple as that.
To sniff out a Head Game Pro, I have a "3 strikes" litmus test. The first time, she may not have expected it or always says NO on first attempt by reflex. But… you are now ON her radar. Ask a second time. If she does not take a clue here, she didn’t think you were for real the first time, ("I am always hit on." or "Why would he want to go out with me?") She may have forgoten all about you too. Therefore, take a mulligan and treat it like strike 1 and… ask a third time. Be blunt, but be charming. If you do not get a yes or no: (They will never say NO directly. To honest and ballsy, without the balls.)
- You are her favorite ego booster ("Ask me again sometime, please! I love the attention.").
- She is adversely shy, too much for her own good. She will need to learn to overcome this if she wants to go on dates ever.
- She is completely clueless. Translation: a few eye liner’s short of a full make-up kit.
Write her off. Sometimes the third strike is not necessary, body language says a lot when you ask the second time. If you’re not sure though, the third strike will make things crystal. If you are the Don Juan we all know you are and her situation (shyness/boyfriend/little miss princess/whatever) changes, and you continue to be friendly to her in a nonchalant way since strike 3... she will come after you my friend. They always do. Keep the old "spidey sense" acute for interest level. Sometimes, if you still bump into each other now and again (get out of the gutter ladies and germs… ba dum bing!), you will have gotten to know her a little better. Since you are more relaxed from not pursuing, you soon discover she really is not your type and write her off for good. Now she really wants you because you have totally relaxed and become your true self around her. She sees what she is missing out on and will try her best to get you to "pick her up" again. Even if it is only for the challenge of "changing your mind" again about her. Tee hee! But that is for you to decide.
Aren’t circles fun?
Continuing…
>>"Guys....Wyldfire....Penkitten....anyone with similar stories that might help shed some light here. Sometimes I can't help but wonder if X or Y or both X and Y are just screwing with my head. I know women sometimes play games to keep guys dangling, but would a woman stoop so low as to deliberately lie about loving you in order to try to keep you on a string?"<<
Damn straight they would lie. At least the Type #3, controlling, manipulative, gold digging, "wait for the one with enough cash to treat me the way I want to be treated" harpies you want to avoid that is. Or maybe the Type #2 emotional vampires who simply don’t love themselves enough to go through a dry spell until the right guy comes along. That may be a little harsh, but there are TOO FEW women out there who are mature (Type #1) enough to realize that being a single woman is OK. Mature enough to know if she flirts smartly and respectfully, she will attract the man right for her. A dry spell can be a GOOD thing. Some women out right lie and say they do not WANT a man to COMPLETE their lives. But they all NEED a man to be a PART of their lives (and vice versa). I was watching a talk show where this woman author researched single women in the late 90’s of all ages. The book was titled "Solitaire" I think. In it she said despite all the success these women had in their lives. Professionally, personally, financially, family wise, child wise (for single moms). Despite having had a few LTR relationships or even a marriage that failed, they still wanted to find "the one". There is even a huge stigma on women, by women, who have never married. "She is so (insert compliment here), but never married. Tsssk. That’s so sad." They even agreed that a bad marriage was BETTER than having the stigma of never having been married at all. My head nearly spun off my neck after hearing that.
If I had to pick, from the 4 RoadWarrior is currently dating, I would pick X. She is in his "TOP 2" interest level. You did not mention if she thinks of you as a soul mate. She probably can't figure out why you would continue to throw yourself at Y who won't even give you a bone to feed on. "Men! Thier all idiots." Yes, Madam X sounds like the one who deserves a shot if you ask me.
In conclusion, I will dispense this little nugget of wisdom I have come to realize when it comes to finding who you want to be with. This goes for the ladies too. It is only a theory mind you. And theories need to be tested vigorously. I feel mine can stand up to any test and can be used for any relationship circumstance. It can be summed up in 2 words.
LET GO.
LET GO of how you feel. LET GO of what you think she feels. LET GO of what you think you feel. LET GO of everything but the desire to be…
WITH SOMEONE WHO WANTS TO BE WITH YOU.
Simple huh. I am not saying that kino, eye contact, etc does not need to be figured out in order to attract your perfect mate. (Or someone for a little monkey love. Whatever your needs are at the time.) I AM saying that you cannot control the actions of another person unless they are of a weak mind; or do not love themselves enough to know who is good for them. How do you find someone who wants to be with you? Ask her out? Ask her out again. Listen and observe. She says yes. Great. She says no. That’s ok too. She continues to flirt, ask again. She said YES! Go out and have fun. Ask for seconds. She says no again, don’t sweat it. Just LET GO. If she wants to be with you, she will MAKE time in her life for it too happen on both yours AND hers schedules. This is a partnership right? It takes two to play. True love knows no bounds right?
That is too "simplistic" you say? "It sounds like you are both trying and not trying to meet someone. That’s impossible."
Which comes to my other maxim in life when it comes to finding the woman you want, the life you want.
DIG IN.
Lenny Kravits knows what he sings about. Listen to those lyrics. They ring true for love and life. DIG IN and never give up. DIG IN and soon you’ll have a good time.
Letting go completely is probably the most difficult thing any one MIGHT be able to accomplish in life. I struggle with it everyday. I am no more immune from "falling off the path" than the rest of you here. Emotions, our hearts and our minds are the reasons we trip up. But my goal is to get back up so fast, that if anyone saw, I could say to them I never fell and they would believe me.
That is true enlightenment, zen, or whatever you want to call it.
Think I’m full of sh*t.
Let me have it.
Maximus
------------------
The Way of The
Simpleton - A
simpleton: lays down
no first law, takes
everything that
happens as it comes.
The simplicity of the
truly sophisticated.
---- Bruce Lee
I found the thread started by RoadWarrior on "puzzling women" very interesting. It has gotten a lot of response and become very long. It also had tangents (which is what vigorous discourse is supposed to produce) into what "I love you" really means and talk-vs-actions. While everyone had a quick observation, no one really went into what kind of women he was dealing with.
There seems to be 3 kinds of women here.
1) The mature. (I.e. One's you want to date.)
2) The "white knight" princess.
3) The Head Game Pro.
Here is my take, and a theory at the end that may finally rid us all of the game playing that goes on between the sexes.
To quote RoadWarrior:
>>"Guys.....have you ever had a girl tell you she loves you and yet refuses to go out with you? It appears to make no sense. A woman with high interest dates you...right...no question. I've always believed this to be the case. I'm not so sure anymore..."<<
Don’t second-guess yourself. A woman with high ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP interest dates you, and continues to want to see you, period.
Interest can only crawl out of the realm of fantasy, and assert itself fully in reality (truth), if action is taken. Otherwise it does not exist except in the HEAD of the individual that conceived it.
If she has high interest and still does not date you, for whatever reason, her interest will NEVER BE REALIZED. How many times is a guy supposed to ask? I mean come on.
If she wants you, she will date you.
To continue…
>>"Over the past three months, six different women have told me they love me...five said, "I love you" directly to my face, the other said it twice to me, both times while my back was to her but directed at me, nonetheless".<<
Looking good buddy! I would be wary of any woman who is free and easy with that "four letter word" though. We all know a woman’s feelings can change in a heartbeat. (Which is why we never say it first.) But that is better than the "pity hug" at the end of the night.
To continue…
>>"Two of these women, I have no interest in whatsoever and I politely told them so when they expressed their feelings to me. Both seem to have accepted I will not be with them, although each continues to hit on me from time to time."<<
*Type #1: The mature women.
What a true gentlemen. Up front and honest, the way it should be. Of course they are still gonna hit on you! You would not give up after the first NO would you? Anything good is worth fighting for! As long as you don’t lead them on by staying CONSISTENT with NON-ROMANTIC actions when you are around them. This is probably just fun for the ladies as you said they flirt "from time to time"(ala 3PO accent in Hoth Base heh heh). They are still trolling for a bite AND because you have wrote them off, you’re DJ skills are probably 110% effective because you are not even trying. No desire right? They are human like anyone else. When you know you have no shot, you totally relax and don’t care. You act more like your true self. That is probably what is happening with these two ladies and your self.
Continuing...
>>"Two of these women I have dated...one I was with for about a month before I broke it off. The other I still continue to see on occasion and although she has told me that she considers me to be her soul mate, I think, deep down she realizes we aren't meant for each other."<<
*Type #2: The "white knight" princess.
Leeeettt me get this straight. You see this woman "occasionally", she has told you she loves you AND considers you her soul mate? Sounds like one of those soap opera fans. They can never come down from that romantic "buzz" once the TV is turned off. She sees something in you and is completely blind to who you truly are. She only sees what she wants to see. (Guys are not immune from this. We place a woman on the "white pedestal".) This kind of woman will have to adjust to reality soon or she will miss the boat entirely, end up divorced from a jerk, or pine over her many suitors who: "did not know how much I loved him. If only I could have helped him see the love we - (I.e. delusional) - shared for each other." Your gut is even telling you that she may feel deep down that you are not meant for each other. You know you aren’t meant for her because you would not have said seeing her only on "occasion". Telling you that you are her soul mate is a very subtle mind game to feed her white knight fantasy. If you have ever talked about being "meant for each other" (with doe in headlight eyes from her), this women is a fairytale drama addict. She will never be able to look at you and see you for who you really are until…. after the wedding. Then the blinders come off and she realizes she has you. She has you. The fantasy is over. No need to go into the messiness that is sure to follow. I try to avoid anyone who even mentions the idea of a soul mate in less than 6 months of dating. I am open to the possibility of finding my soul mate, but one will only truly know for sure in the twilight of your years together. Soul mate implies destiny or heavenly ordained to me. How can you know that after a couple of dates, or a couple months, when it takes spending the next fifty years together. A soul mate is someone who will want to be with you day after day after day, through all the crap. A soul mate is someone you turn too after getting off the phone with your 10th grandchild, looking over at your wife and saying, "I knew we were soul mate’s from the beginning."
Continuing…
>>"The problem is....the other two women....I will call them X and Y...the two that I am the most attracted to....neither will go out with me, although both have told me they love me. X knows I like her but that I am more attracted to Y. Maybe she feels I will dump her to go out with Y and is refusing to date me in order to protect her heart...I don't know."<<
Again. Trust yourself and don’t worry about what the other person is feeling or thinking. If you think X knows you like Y more, especially if you talked about it, that was a BIG no no. No woman wants to be made to feel like choice #2 as Wyldfire alluded to. Always make them feel like #1. She is right thinking you might dump her if you even mentioned Y. You don’t want to hear she is dating other guys do you? You simply accept it with out asking.
Wyldfire actually supplied a lot of insight into this specific head game that some women will play. To quote Wyldfire:
//"The two who refuse to go out with you might be doing that because they think they aren't your "first choice".//
Don’t get me wrong Wyldfire, I agree in theory with your statement. But this is how THEY THINK. It is THEIR PROBLEM, not RoadWarrior’s. Who doesn’t want to feel like they are the number one choice by a potential mate? I know I do. But let’s be realistic. Technically, unless you are 14 to 18 years old, the chances of a woman being "first choice by a man who asks you out is impossible. Even if a guy has dated only one woman in his entire life, the next woman he asks out is his "second choice", regardless if you are aware of her or not. It’s a simple concept. If you are single, there is a good chance of other men/women in your new hottie’s life. To me, if a woman persistently demonstrates this kind of attitude, I head the other way. If a woman feels she is being treated like "#2" by a man’s actions (and no DJ does that because we make all women feel like #1 right?) then she has a right to think he is a player and dump the chump. Just don’t think a man, once he asks you out a couple of times, is going to sit on his a$$ and wait for you to figure out if you are interested in him or not. That would be "nice", but no one wants that, woman or man.
Continuing…
>>"Y, on the other hand knows I'm very attracted to her. She has told me she loves me. I have asked her out twice....both times she bolted on me....no 'yes'....no 'no'....she just smiled at me, said my name and walked away without any explanation. I have been told she is jealous of X and the other woman I date casually (the one who considers me her soul mate).... I don't know.... It makes no sense."<<
*Type #3: The Head Game Pro
And we come full circle.
The one we want is the one we can’t have. She is leading you around like a dog on a leash. She is not even answering your invites with a Yes or No. Does she go "Tee Hee! Oh you!" as well? She may be jealous of X but who cares. If she wanted to date you, she would. Simple as that.
To sniff out a Head Game Pro, I have a "3 strikes" litmus test. The first time, she may not have expected it or always says NO on first attempt by reflex. But… you are now ON her radar. Ask a second time. If she does not take a clue here, she didn’t think you were for real the first time, ("I am always hit on." or "Why would he want to go out with me?") She may have forgoten all about you too. Therefore, take a mulligan and treat it like strike 1 and… ask a third time. Be blunt, but be charming. If you do not get a yes or no: (They will never say NO directly. To honest and ballsy, without the balls.)
- You are her favorite ego booster ("Ask me again sometime, please! I love the attention.").
- She is adversely shy, too much for her own good. She will need to learn to overcome this if she wants to go on dates ever.
- She is completely clueless. Translation: a few eye liner’s short of a full make-up kit.
Write her off. Sometimes the third strike is not necessary, body language says a lot when you ask the second time. If you’re not sure though, the third strike will make things crystal. If you are the Don Juan we all know you are and her situation (shyness/boyfriend/little miss princess/whatever) changes, and you continue to be friendly to her in a nonchalant way since strike 3... she will come after you my friend. They always do. Keep the old "spidey sense" acute for interest level. Sometimes, if you still bump into each other now and again (get out of the gutter ladies and germs… ba dum bing!), you will have gotten to know her a little better. Since you are more relaxed from not pursuing, you soon discover she really is not your type and write her off for good. Now she really wants you because you have totally relaxed and become your true self around her. She sees what she is missing out on and will try her best to get you to "pick her up" again. Even if it is only for the challenge of "changing your mind" again about her. Tee hee! But that is for you to decide.
Aren’t circles fun?
Continuing…
>>"Guys....Wyldfire....Penkitten....anyone with similar stories that might help shed some light here. Sometimes I can't help but wonder if X or Y or both X and Y are just screwing with my head. I know women sometimes play games to keep guys dangling, but would a woman stoop so low as to deliberately lie about loving you in order to try to keep you on a string?"<<
Damn straight they would lie. At least the Type #3, controlling, manipulative, gold digging, "wait for the one with enough cash to treat me the way I want to be treated" harpies you want to avoid that is. Or maybe the Type #2 emotional vampires who simply don’t love themselves enough to go through a dry spell until the right guy comes along. That may be a little harsh, but there are TOO FEW women out there who are mature (Type #1) enough to realize that being a single woman is OK. Mature enough to know if she flirts smartly and respectfully, she will attract the man right for her. A dry spell can be a GOOD thing. Some women out right lie and say they do not WANT a man to COMPLETE their lives. But they all NEED a man to be a PART of their lives (and vice versa). I was watching a talk show where this woman author researched single women in the late 90’s of all ages. The book was titled "Solitaire" I think. In it she said despite all the success these women had in their lives. Professionally, personally, financially, family wise, child wise (for single moms). Despite having had a few LTR relationships or even a marriage that failed, they still wanted to find "the one". There is even a huge stigma on women, by women, who have never married. "She is so (insert compliment here), but never married. Tsssk. That’s so sad." They even agreed that a bad marriage was BETTER than having the stigma of never having been married at all. My head nearly spun off my neck after hearing that.
If I had to pick, from the 4 RoadWarrior is currently dating, I would pick X. She is in his "TOP 2" interest level. You did not mention if she thinks of you as a soul mate. She probably can't figure out why you would continue to throw yourself at Y who won't even give you a bone to feed on. "Men! Thier all idiots." Yes, Madam X sounds like the one who deserves a shot if you ask me.
In conclusion, I will dispense this little nugget of wisdom I have come to realize when it comes to finding who you want to be with. This goes for the ladies too. It is only a theory mind you. And theories need to be tested vigorously. I feel mine can stand up to any test and can be used for any relationship circumstance. It can be summed up in 2 words.
LET GO.
LET GO of how you feel. LET GO of what you think she feels. LET GO of what you think you feel. LET GO of everything but the desire to be…
WITH SOMEONE WHO WANTS TO BE WITH YOU.
Simple huh. I am not saying that kino, eye contact, etc does not need to be figured out in order to attract your perfect mate. (Or someone for a little monkey love. Whatever your needs are at the time.) I AM saying that you cannot control the actions of another person unless they are of a weak mind; or do not love themselves enough to know who is good for them. How do you find someone who wants to be with you? Ask her out? Ask her out again. Listen and observe. She says yes. Great. She says no. That’s ok too. She continues to flirt, ask again. She said YES! Go out and have fun. Ask for seconds. She says no again, don’t sweat it. Just LET GO. If she wants to be with you, she will MAKE time in her life for it too happen on both yours AND hers schedules. This is a partnership right? It takes two to play. True love knows no bounds right?
That is too "simplistic" you say? "It sounds like you are both trying and not trying to meet someone. That’s impossible."
Which comes to my other maxim in life when it comes to finding the woman you want, the life you want.
DIG IN.
Lenny Kravits knows what he sings about. Listen to those lyrics. They ring true for love and life. DIG IN and never give up. DIG IN and soon you’ll have a good time.
Letting go completely is probably the most difficult thing any one MIGHT be able to accomplish in life. I struggle with it everyday. I am no more immune from "falling off the path" than the rest of you here. Emotions, our hearts and our minds are the reasons we trip up. But my goal is to get back up so fast, that if anyone saw, I could say to them I never fell and they would believe me.
That is true enlightenment, zen, or whatever you want to call it.
Think I’m full of sh*t.
Let me have it.
Maximus
------------------
The Way of The
Simpleton - A
simpleton: lays down
no first law, takes
everything that
happens as it comes.
The simplicity of the
truly sophisticated.
---- Bruce Lee
