Should i be envious of those who served in the military?

[Bokanovsky]

Everything you said before "having said that" is the opposite of reality. And that has been the case for at least the past 100 years or so. In fact, "individualistic and independently-minded" is the trait you can describe most servicemen.

Are you saying that the concept of following orders does not exist anymore?

 

[RangerMIke]

Actually, they are in the business of building machines who will obey without questioning orders. That is the number one purpose of military training. Take a person who thinks for himself, break him down, and turn him into someone who does what he’s told. That’s the one aspect of military service that has always seemed like a major turn-off. The military does not seem to be a good fit for someone who is individualistic and independently-minded. Having said that, I have great respect for people who volunteer to serve.

A common misperception. At least the US military doesn't create automatons. Military training teaches people to function in the face of fear. You are not obligated to follow unlawful orders. It also teaches respect for authority.... anyone that has a problem with authority should no join the military. Now if this was a DRAFT Army... yes... training and development is VERY different and when we had a draft Army it was very different, there was an element of coercion that doesn't exist today.

It is true that it isn't for everyone, and hyper-individuals will have a hard time adjusting, and they typically get chaptered out before it becomes a problem.

 

[eli77]

A common misperception. At least the US military doesn't create automatons. Military training teaches people to function in the face of fear. You are not obligated to follow unlawful orders. It also teaches respect for authority.... anyone that has a problem with authority should no join the military. Now if this was a DRAFT Army... yes... training and development is VERY different and when we had a draft Army it was very different, there was an element of coercion that doesn't exist today.

It is true that it isn't for everyone, and hyper-individuals will have a hard time adjusting, and they typically get chaptered out before it becomes a problem.

ranger been wanting to contatc you but know you have been busy dm me when you can.

 

[eli77]

I don't know if I agree with this. This was the reason I didn't join the marines. Biggest regret/mistake of my life. I should have just buckled up, and learned to accept the authority.

elaborate i tried to get in in 2009 they expedited the process.Bad eyesight kept me out.

 

[T_Rex]

Are you saying that the concept of following orders does not exist anymore?

Every time you start a phrase with "so are you saying..."

1 - that's not what the other people is saying
2 - you're being intellectually dishonest.

 

[T_Rex]

A common misperception. At least the US military doesn't create automatons. Military training teaches people to function in the face of fear. You are not obligated to follow unlawful orders. It also teaches respect for authority.... anyone that has a problem with authority should no join the military. Now if this was a DRAFT Army... yes... training and development is VERY different and when we had a draft Army it was very different, there was an element of coercion that doesn't exist today.

It is true that it isn't for everyone, and hyper-individuals will have a hard time adjusting, and they typically get chaptered out before it becomes a problem.

Even in a draft army, it never works out when you try and force people to do what they don't want to. And people mess up big time when doing something if they don't understand why.

 

[Bokanovsky]

Every time you start a phrase with "so are you saying..."

1 - that's not what the other people is saying
2 - you're being intellectually dishonest.

Every time you accuse someone of being intellectually dishonest, you are being intellectually dishonest yourself.

 

[MatureDJ]

I have a number of friends that have joined the military, and the reasons are basically:

- Patriotism, and being able to hold oneself high because of it.

- No father figure (father just ran away) and seeing how the military will be a life-anchor they had always wanted.

- A job with a great deal of agency, even with the social hierarchy, the opposite of being a weenie in a boring office.

- A job where there is no set skill that is needed, where just being tough and being a leader is enough to succeed.

 

[MatureDJ]

I'm a U.S. Vet from the Corps. Much respect to anyone who wore the uniform and served.

Was your drill instructor really like Gunnery Seargent Hartman? Did you do the exercise of "this is for fighting, this is for fun"? Was the wakeup call done by a DI banging a garbage can with a bat?

 

[Zimbabwe]

I don't join because Australia sjw and feminist, I am not fighting to defend this garbage.

 

[RangerMIke]

I don't know if I agree with this. This was the reason I didn't join the marines. Biggest regret/mistake of my life. I should have just buckled up, and learned to accept the authority.

Don't second guess yourself. Sure it could have worked out for you; you also could have gotten into serious trouble with a Dishonorable Discharge and that sh1t follows you your whole life.

When I was in command I only gave one soldier a DD, and the stupid M-F just begged for it by taking a bat to his squad leader and platoon sergeant's cars.. There are other commanders that handed DDs out like candy. For me, I avoided that as much as possible since I didn't want to ruin a person's life. Without too much detail, I had one soldier that pushed for a Courts Marshal, rather than take an Article 15 (which is his right). I had him dead to right, and he would have been convicted if I pushed for this... Rather than being a d1ck and going along with the CM, I dropped the whole thing. Yeah he strutted around like a peacock having gotten away with something... and I'm sure he to this day tells the story about how he stood down his commander... but really I didn't need to ruin some 19 year old stupid kid life to keep my ego from being bruised.

Most commanders would have roasted him over a fire. When I was a commander I did whatever I needed to do to get soldiers that were not adjusting OUT of the Army as fast as possible with as little lasting damage to them as possible. I knew commanders that would slap a 'bar to re-enlistment' on any soldier that did not want to re-up. One of the things you are graded on is your re-enlistment rate. Any soldier that has a bar to re-enlistment doesn't count against your numbers. So I knew a lot of commanders that would slap these bars on people who didn't want to re-up. This hurts them long term because if later they change their minds and want to come back in... they can't. I got into a lot of trouble with my Brigade commander because I wouldn't do this... which ultimately did hurt my career progression.

The point is, you don't know what kind of NCOs and Officers you will have... You could get a compete d1ck with a Napoleon complex and if you already have authority issues could cause something stupid to happen.

 

[T_Rex]

Every time you accuse someone of being intellectually dishonest, you are being intellectually dishonest yourself.

I'm not accusing you of being intellectually dishonest. You are being intellectually dishonest.
You are purposefully using a well known fallacy, the "Straw man fallacy". This one gets characterized when somebody deliberately distorts the other person's point of view and attacks this distortion instead of the point of view itself. This one got recently famous in a interview Jordan Peterson gave and the journalist used this ad nauseam. You may not know you are using a fallacy but the intention of doing what you did is intellectual dishonesty. And there are a lot more fallacies, I hope you don't reply this with another one.

I'm not sure you know where you are. This is not a social networking site, this is not Twitter. I'm not here arguing against you. This is a forum of self-improvement. I'm talking to you like I would to my little brother. I'm teaching you. showing you your beliefs are wrong and how you can right them. I have no intention whatsoever in winning a debate against you because this is not a debate. You don't have a point about the military, you believe(d) in something that's not factual. And I've shown you why and how. You had a misconception about something and it is expected of you in this context to put your ego in check and accept what is being taught to you. Just like I and pretty much everyone here have being taught over the decades by people who knew what they didn't.

And if you don't like what I just said, again, I'm not sure you know where you are. Here's not the place people will pamper you and give you sugarcoated lies. Nobody is here to please you and give you what you want to read. Here's the place where your view of the world is challenged over and over again.

 

[Bokanovsky]

I'm not accusing you of being intellectually dishonest. You are being intellectually dishonest.
You are purposefully using a well known fallacy, the "Straw man fallacy". This one gets characterized when somebody deliberately distorts the other person's point of view and attacks this distortion instead of the point of view itself. This one got recently famous in a interview Jordan Peterson gave and the journalist used this ad nauseam. You may not know you are using a fallacy but the intention of doing what you did is intellectual dishonesty.

Accusing someone of being “intellectually dishonest” is a lame bully tactic used by people who have no substantive point to make. It is a common refrain for the woke types, who also like to call everyone they don’t agree with racists and misogynists. It’s the kind of accusation you would expect from an undergraduate gender studies major. Grown men don’t use that kind of lingo. So I have to chuckle at your “little brother” comment because, frankly, you sound like a little sister. The fact that you quote a guy who recently had a mental breakdown is also interesting.

 

[AureliusMaximus]

Have some friends who went in no officers but have mixed emotions about their time in.Anyone want to chime in?

No?
Is there anything to be envious about a bullet to your head and being dead or potentially being disabled for the rest of your life?

Also remember that just because you came back in one piece from deployment doesn't mean that you are a whole person. Loads of soldiers come back with severe psychological issues that will haunt them for the rest of their life too.

On top of that many also have a really hard time to change back and adapt the life as a civilian after have lived the military life.
Most civilians will never understand you and what you have done in service. So not much help there.

(Edit: I admit I guess the only real big benefit is If you where lucky and escaped from the military without being deployed is because you will have a professional training and very specific skill set that you can use and might benefit you for the rest of your life. That is the positive side of it. But one thing outweighs the other. It of course up to you to decide what that one is).

 

[T_Rex]

Accusing someone of being “intellectually dishonest” is a lame bully tactic used by people who have no substantive point to make. It is a common refrain for the woke types, who also like to call everyone they don’t agree with racists and misogynists. It’s the kind of accusation you would expect from an undergraduate gender studies major. Grown men don’t use that kind of lingo. So I have to chuckle at your “little brother” comment because, frankly, you sound like a little sister. The fact that you quote a guy who recently had a mental breakdown is also interesting.

just to make it more than obvious, you did exactly what I said: used fallacies again. Thanks for proving me right.

And not a single thing of what you said has nothing to do with leadership in the military; this is what the post is about. Maybe you're right and it's me who doesn't have a point to make. rofl

 

[T_Rex]

On top of that many also have a really hard time to change back and adapt the life as a civilian after have lived the military life.
Most civilians will never understand you and what you have done in service. So not much help there.

(Edit: I admit I guess the only real big benefit is If you where lucky and escaped from the military without being deployed is because you will have a professional training and very specific skill set that you can use and might benefit you for the rest of your life. That is the positive side of it. But one thing outweighs the other. It of course up to you to decide what that one is).

I think it's also worth mentioning that a lot of deployed personnel doesn't have any mental problems or permanent injuries and find deployment a very important experience in their lives.

 

[MatureDJ]

View attachment 7994
No?
Is there anything to be envious about a bullet to your head and being dead or potentially being disabled for the rest of your life?
View attachment 7995
Also remember that just because you came back in one piece from deployment doesn't mean that you are a whole person. Loads of soldiers come back with severe psychological issues that will haunt them for the rest of their life too.
View attachment 7997
On top of that many also have a really hard time to change back and adapt the life as a civilian after have lived the military life.
Most civilians will never understand you and what you have done in service. So not much help there.

(Edit: I admit I guess the only real big benefit is If you where lucky and escaped from the military without being deployed is because you will have a professional training and very specific skill set that you can use and might benefit you for the rest of your life. That is the positive side of it. But one thing outweighs the other. It of course up to you to decide what that one is).

I can only imagine the nightmares that (combat-tested) veterans have while sleeping.

 

[AureliusMaximus]

I can only imagine the nightmares that (combat-tested) veterans have while sleeping.

Indeed.
And living with the memories of all the people you have killed. Just because you are a certified legal mass murderer by the government doesn't mean that your own conscious is fine with it. You still have to live with it for the rest of your life

Seeing Hollywood's glorified version of war on TV/cinema have nothing to do with the real realities of war.
Like when you suddenly see your squad mate's brain splattered all over cross the wall flowing down towards the floor/tons of blood etc. after his head was popped by a sniper bullet..
Then suddenly it isn't fun and glory. Nothing can prepare you for that.

 

[MatureDJ]

Indeed.
And living with the memories of all the people you have killed. Just because you are a certified legal mass murderer by the government doesn't mean that your own conscious is fine with it. You still have to live with it for the rest of your life

Seeing Hollywood's glorified version of war on TV/cinema have nothing to do with the real realities of war.
Like when you suddenly see your squad mate's brain splattered all over cross the wall flowing down towards the floor/tons of blood etc. after his head was popped by a sniper bullet..
Then suddenly it isn't fun and glory. Nothing can prepare you for that.

The TV show "Seinfeld" was the ultimate in being shallow & unserious, but this scene was one interjection of serious: