This has become painfully obvious lately. Men here have little to no experience with the types of issues relationships present in the 2+ month area (Hint - the interest level graph is not a straight diagonal line going up forever). I had people saying never to call my HB9+ again after she cancelled one date over 3 months. I insisted everything was fine. A week later she came back and told me she is in love with me and was willing to do anything to prove it. I had the best sex of my life, but certain members said I never should have allowed it to happen because she didn't automatically commit like a good burka-wearing woman would have! As they ask how to get a fat girl's phone number. Amazing.Some of you guys say that LTRs are the easy, and thus lazy, road. Quite the opposite holds true. For LTRs, you need stronger game than plate spinning.
When you spin plates/date, if a girl acts up, you NEXT. Done.
In an LTR, you have to keep IL high, keep her LT deferential, keep a stronger LT frame, direct her whimsicalities, keep desire high (inadvertently). I can see why some choose only to spin plates: it's easy!
Why "The Dating Market" Sucks
- Thread starter Poon King
- Start date
I totally agree. The sex gets way better after 2-3 months, especially when you have a spiritual connection with her and you both fall for each other. There is a difference between having sex and making love that one must experience to understand. Romance is Interest + Time. When women orgasm they produce oxytocin (cuddle/bonding chemical). That doesn't happen on a one night stand.
You say men only have experience with 2+ month relationships? That is patently false here.
Agreed
l_e_g_e_n_d
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1) LTR game > Plate game.We're all going to make mistakes. Many many mistakes.
You can't wrap yourself in cotton wool. That would be a grave mistake
Show me a woman that doesn't sh*t-test, and I'll show you a magical leprechaun with a pot of gold.
Women are a hassle in general. They are infinitely crafty. That's a fact.
You probably have no idea the amount of psychological warfare that can take place while plate-spinning
And if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.
2) Women are natural plate spinners. Men are the true romantics. Men have to be taught to spin plates, as they did through the advent of the Manosphere.
3) Since the indoctrination of "Sex in the City," women in their 20s, 30s, and 40s are socially rewarded to plate spin, and exclusivity is an antiquated construct.
Socially, plate spinning is a woman's frame. Sorry to crush your aspirations champ.
I have a confession: In the past I've gone on record contradicting @Poon King & @deesade re: LTR's. But the fact is, since I swallowed the Red Pill and starting learning game, all of the girls who've inspired the idea that a relationship would be OK or desireable were 1.) Hotter than what I thought I could easily replace (scarcity) 2.) A respite from the rejection my ego still got hit by (fear) and 3.) Proof that I wasn't some creeper for running game on girls in bars & prove to other people that I could get girls like her & have people approve of my life direction (validation). The fact was, my desire for comfort & security was so strong that I didn't really see these girls for who/what they are.
In the past couple months, I've had a breakthrough in game. Once you can make pulling the hottest girls on any given night a regular and repeatable occurrence; once you can understand exactly why pulls fail & identify the nuances of "rejection;" once you can create & recreate those "magical emotional connections" over the span of hours with multiple girls any given weekend; once you realize that girls not only don't really care that you're seeing other girls but will say things like, "I know you have to see other girls," etc. before you even bring it up since they aren't willing to risk totally losing you to the game.
The reason 'sex gets better' and an 'emotional connection develops' is really just you letting your guard down, investing your ego, but mostly just getting comfortable around a girl--and her reflecting that comfortableness back to you. But if you're comfortable with a girl from the jump, she'll be comfortable; if you're 100% sexually open, she'll be 100% sexually open. My first night sex would be mindblowing if it wasn't that way...every...single...time (except some girls who just aren't great lays--but not from a lack of effort or arousal).
Relationship 'magic' is only magical because it's rare & not repeatable because the factors at play aren't understood on a conscious level. Losing that 'magic' is a painful loss, especially when there's nothing to replace it with: but agency is the biggest turn on. Learn to fall in love with what you can do. When your actions and your feelings about yourself are your biggest turn on, a lot of girls will fit the bill, happily and willingly.
That said, there is one area I still disagree with @Poon King and @deesade. When you achieve abundance with girls, you can either be a wino or a connoisseur. For the purposes of my own enjoyment and the girls,' I find it better to focus on the nuances of each girl than the overwhelming similarity & predictability of girls in general. Replaceable but irreducible--never quite the same girl, the same chemistry, the same situation, the same moment in your life. Enjoy & appreciate it fully without attaching yourself to it.
In the past couple months, I've had a breakthrough in game. Once you can make pulling the hottest girls on any given night a regular and repeatable occurrence; once you can understand exactly why pulls fail & identify the nuances of "rejection;" once you can create & recreate those "magical emotional connections" over the span of hours with multiple girls any given weekend; once you realize that girls not only don't really care that you're seeing other girls but will say things like, "I know you have to see other girls," etc. before you even bring it up since they aren't willing to risk totally losing you to the game.
The reason 'sex gets better' and an 'emotional connection develops' is really just you letting your guard down, investing your ego, but mostly just getting comfortable around a girl--and her reflecting that comfortableness back to you. But if you're comfortable with a girl from the jump, she'll be comfortable; if you're 100% sexually open, she'll be 100% sexually open. My first night sex would be mindblowing if it wasn't that way...every...single...time (except some girls who just aren't great lays--but not from a lack of effort or arousal).
Relationship 'magic' is only magical because it's rare & not repeatable because the factors at play aren't understood on a conscious level. Losing that 'magic' is a painful loss, especially when there's nothing to replace it with: but agency is the biggest turn on. Learn to fall in love with what you can do. When your actions and your feelings about yourself are your biggest turn on, a lot of girls will fit the bill, happily and willingly.
That said, there is one area I still disagree with @Poon King and @deesade. When you achieve abundance with girls, you can either be a wino or a connoisseur. For the purposes of my own enjoyment and the girls,' I find it better to focus on the nuances of each girl than the overwhelming similarity & predictability of girls in general. Replaceable but irreducible--never quite the same girl, the same chemistry, the same situation, the same moment in your life. Enjoy & appreciate it fully without attaching yourself to it.
Tenacity
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You know what's so funny about the discussions we are having at the end of the day? AT the end of the day, the truth of the matter is that women add VALUE, but not as much value compared to at times the level of frustration, work, analysis, time, energy, and finances that are invested lol.
I compare this situation to a bachelor's degree. YES, a bachelor's degree is valuable and if you want to be competitive today in the job market, you had better grab you one. HOWEVER, I don't want to pay $150,000 for the bachelor's degree! I don't want to have to go into debt 6 figures for it and take 20 years to pay it off (with interest, which damn near doubles the cost)!
I want to acquire the bachelor's degree for the value it has but at a reasonable price, of let's say no more than $30,000 for the entire 4 year program.
AT the end of the day, I think women are "valuable", but we are spending way too much time, energy, analysis, work, frustration, headache, etc., on that "value". So much so that similar to the $150,000 bachelor's degree that we have to go into DEBT over, sometimes overpaying for the value sought could diminish the actual benefits of the value once acquired, so much so that even though it's now acquired, because you overpaid for it, you can't really fvcking enjoy it.
It's like yes, you got that bachelor's degree and you got that job for $60,000 a year with a growth track to make $85,000 a year within 5 years going forward. But you have a $150,000 DEBT bill over your head that balloons to well over $200,000 with interest in terms of total payback, once it's all said and done. You won't even be able to enjoy the damn benefits of the bachelor's degree (the job and pay) due to the constant stress from the DEBT bill.
I compare this situation to a bachelor's degree. YES, a bachelor's degree is valuable and if you want to be competitive today in the job market, you had better grab you one. HOWEVER, I don't want to pay $150,000 for the bachelor's degree! I don't want to have to go into debt 6 figures for it and take 20 years to pay it off (with interest, which damn near doubles the cost)!
I want to acquire the bachelor's degree for the value it has but at a reasonable price, of let's say no more than $30,000 for the entire 4 year program.
AT the end of the day, I think women are "valuable", but we are spending way too much time, energy, analysis, work, frustration, headache, etc., on that "value". So much so that similar to the $150,000 bachelor's degree that we have to go into DEBT over, sometimes overpaying for the value sought could diminish the actual benefits of the value once acquired, so much so that even though it's now acquired, because you overpaid for it, you can't really fvcking enjoy it.
It's like yes, you got that bachelor's degree and you got that job for $60,000 a year with a growth track to make $85,000 a year within 5 years going forward. But you have a $150,000 DEBT bill over your head that balloons to well over $200,000 with interest in terms of total payback, once it's all said and done. You won't even be able to enjoy the damn benefits of the bachelor's degree (the job and pay) due to the constant stress from the DEBT bill.
This is the key, and why it's not about whether the man spent money or not.
If a girl will do anything for you if you buy her dinner, buying her dinner provides a good value. Meanwhile if a 7 won't even give you a pity peck after you get her a 5 star hotel, that is not a good value.
If the man misses the woman, she was giving him a good value.
If the woman dumps the man, he was not giving her a good value.
A big part of it is simply the value other men bring her.
Wait.. WHAT?
Tenacity is actually waking up to the truth? I can't believe my eyes.
Most men go through a period of denial when they are first educated on the "Red Pill". Its not easy on the ego to learn you've been living your life the wrong way from birth to present.
This is why I'm such a Nazi about applying LOGICAL arguments to all facets of life over EMOTIONAL arguments. Logical arguments are fact based. Emotional arguments are ego based. I discovered a long time ago that when you use logic you always win. If you can make others emotional while staying logical yourself you win even bigger. Why? Because you live in the real world and see every situation for what it is. Everyone else lives in Disney world and sees what they want to see. This leads to you making smarter decisions than most and enjoying more SUCCESS.
Stop worrying about "feeling good" or "looking cool" or "fitting in" all the time. Worry about winning the game.
zekko
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There are plenty of benefits of LTRs listed in this thread. Maybe they don't work for you, but they do for others. That's as it should be. Your insistence that LTRs is "gay" is directly tying a guy's manhood to how many women he is banging. A man's masculinity should not be defined by women. Women are not the main mission, they are only along for the ride.
One reason they give for plate spinning is that it gives you an "abundance mentality". The thing is, once you have that abundance mentality as part of your personality, you don't need to keep spinning plates to get abundance mentality - you already have it. Some guys might lose it, but they are weak.
I agree with what you are saying in this respect: A woman does not have to think much of you to sleep with you. Chances are, the woman who wants to build her life around you thinks more highly of you (unless she is just a gold digger, but those are easy to spot). Also, to maintain a successful relationship, you should have a rock solid frame.
Nobody here is acknowledging that after dating a person for a few months, two fundamental things change: 1) You care about her and 2) She cares about you. Plates are women you don't care much about and who don't care much about you. Caring right away is bad. Not caring ever is worse. Caring makes a person vulnerable but it's also rewarding when you get what you want despite losing a lot of control.
Even if you have 5 women to choose from, you are going to like one the best. That might grow over time. At some point, you'd rather be with her than all the other girls combined. When that happens, you actually find you DO have all the other girls combined. Once women see you liking someone else more, you are preapproved! This is the promised land of true abundance - but when you have it, you won't want the other options. It's the same phenomenon that explains why women love a (happily) married man.
Even if you have 5 women to choose from, you are going to like one the best. That might grow over time. At some point, you'd rather be with her than all the other girls combined. When that happens, you actually find you DO have all the other girls combined. Once women see you liking someone else more, you are preapproved! This is the promised land of true abundance - but when you have it, you won't want the other options. It's the same phenomenon that explains why women love a (happily) married man.
Respectfully disagree its not all about being open and comfortable sexually.
When u truly love and care for a woman and it is reciprocated, that emotional spiritual and physical connection its levels and levels above a ONS with an open and comfortable *****.
Ive been there, plenty of those and they are fun but they are not fulfilling on that deep connection.
When u experience it u will know.
U find yourself fapping to ur woman not to porn or other girls. No lie.
A man's masculinity is not defined by women. Never said it was.
I define masculinity by a man's level of freedom and authenticity. The more he is "tied down" by social cues, women, expectations or conventions the less masculine he is.
Its not about being in a LTR. Its about being "exclusive". Being exclusive is limiting. A man that allows himself to be limited by the expectations of one other person is weak.
A man is unwilling to sleep with other women because he doesn't want to "mess up" a LTR? Idiotic. Would you accept the same conditions in any other area of life? Friends that don't allow you to have other friends? Kids that don't allow you to have other kids? Banks that don't allow you to save money at other banks? Restaurants that don't allow you to eat at other restaurants? Housing laws that don't allow you to own other houses?
Exclusive LTR's fail the logic test every time. As expected.. all the so called "benefits" are "emotional arguments" based on laziness and fear.
This goes both ways. We can't expect women to be committed to us just because we had sex with her a few times.
l_e_g_e_n_d
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I maintain the following. Dating and plate spinning are easy when you have you have top notch SMV, which every man should aspire to have. Most dates I go on, I sit back, let the girl do 80% of talking, tease her, go home (or bang her) while she is texting, "I had such a great tonight!" Meanwhile, I did nothing on the date but let her entertain me. L-i-t-e-r-a-l-l-y no work. I just need to show up, and the rest is up to her.
Now for LTRs, your internal issues will arise (@Tenacity) and must be tempered. You need to keep strong frame all-the-time to govern her capricious moods/moments. You need to keep her desire high. You need to navigate her shvt tests, power plays, and frame grabs (see @bradd80). You need to keep her deferential. You need to govern and lead.
Plate spinning is like taking candy from a baby, it's easy. But LTR game requires labyrinthine acumen, self-control, and foresight, especially among seasoned women who know how to spar.
Tenacity
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This is 1,000% true.
You see spinning plates is almost like renting a movie from Netflix. You get to enjoy all of the benefits of the movie (the film, the special features, etc.) for a short period of time and if at any time the movie gives you any problems in "playback", you can just quickly return it. No maintenance needed. No repair needed. No investment needed. No time analyzing what's wrong needed. Just ship it back.
When you get into a LTR/relationship, you can't just ship the chick back (well you can technically, but you get my point) the moment the "playback" starts to act crazy. You in a way have BOUGHT the DVD, so you have to deal with the maintenance on it, the repair, analyzing what's wrong, etc.
On one hand you can say those guys who want to just spin plates just can't HANDLE a woman, which is what a lot of black women routinely say (they say, "Hmph, you just can't handle a strong woman like me!")
And I conclude that with everything else I have to HANDLE in my life (career, fitness, finances, investments, etc, etc) I don't have the time, energy, nor investment to HANDLE no grown a.ss Adult.
So if the LTR/relationship requires too much damn investment........then hell yeah, I can see why a guy would say fvck that and just spin plates until the "playback" starts acting up in which you immediately SHIP her a.ss back to Netflix!
Because again like I said, at the end of the day women only provide SO MUCH value, and if you are investing way more resources of time, energy, finances, etc. compared to the relative VALUE they provide...........that's a losing investment. Women become a liability rather than an asset. A DRAIN on your life, rather than an improvement.
l_e_g_e_n_d
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Good pathos. But there are some flaws.
Are you employed, self-employed? You are limited by your boss/client.
Are your a perpetual criminal? No? You are limited by local, state, and federal laws.
Were you diagnosed with retardation? No? You are limited by social norms. You don't just run up to a HB10 and jerk off in front of her, do ya?
Being limited by others' expectations is not weak. It's smart. It's powerful. As you outwardly show that you are not a threat and thus gain their favor, but internally, well, they have no idea what your intention is.
Going deeper, there are banking institutions for the affluent, where minimum account balances must be greater than 10MM, and you are paid a higher rate of interest. Do you know what the terms of the banking relationship are besides the minimum balance? Non-compete. You are required to give them 100% of your liquidity (this means real estate and other illiquid investments can be excluded) else they are not required to perform on their promised 7% rate! Now, if were to accede to such an agreement, whereas other banks only pay you a nominal 1-3%, does this make you weak? Does committing to business with this bank make you stupid? No! It makes you smart (if you are receiving a lesser rate of return in your liquid investments).
You're are limited by the expectation of other person(s) everyday pal.
Are you employed, self-employed? You are limited by your boss/client.
Are your a perpetual criminal? No? You are limited by local, state, and federal laws.
Were you diagnosed with retardation? No? You are limited by social norms. You don't just run up to a HB10 and jerk off in front of her, do ya?
Being limited by others' expectations is not weak. It's smart. It's powerful. As you outwardly show that you are not a threat and thus gain their favor, but internally, well, they have no idea what your intention is.
These are the social norms that you have been indoctrinated to believe are proper. Yet, if you walked into a bank, and said, "Hey, I'm not going to bank with you because you believe in open relationships," they would laugh at you, and you have no banks to do business with. Unfortunately, you, I everybody here, are slaves to social norms.
Going deeper, there are banking institutions for the affluent, where minimum account balances must be greater than 10MM, and you are paid a higher rate of interest. Do you know what the terms of the banking relationship are besides the minimum balance? Non-compete. You are required to give them 100% of your liquidity (this means real estate and other illiquid investments can be excluded) else they are not required to perform on their promised 7% rate! Now, if were to accede to such an agreement, whereas other banks only pay you a nominal 1-3%, does this make you weak? Does committing to business with this bank make you stupid? No! It makes you smart (if you are receiving a lesser rate of return in your liquid investments).
Its not black and white.
Nothing in life is black and white. Its on "all vs. nothing" or "100% vs. zero".
My argument isn't that men can exist in a world with NO limits and NO obligations. That's idiotic and you should know better. My argument is WHY limit yourself when you don't have to? Why give yourself LESS options? Why follow rules that don't benefit you?
Do you have good answers to those questions? NO.
This discussion is about what VALUE does a man gain by being exclusive with ONE woman and forgoing all other sexual alternatives. So far.. everything people have come up with is based on laziness or fear. All the arguments are "emotional" or co-dependent. There are no rational arguments.
Why are there no rational arguments? Because women really don't bring much value. Men are brainwashed to over-value women and give them more importance than they really deserve.
You can get ALL the benefits of a LTR with plates. Plus you have sexual variety and leverage to boot. Working to meet new plates is no work at all. Having plates attracts more. Women are competitive. They will come to YOU sometimes. Plates can last for months and even years under the right conditions.
Being exclusive with a woman in 2017 is the mark of laziness, co-dependence and fear. Men who lack those three qualities will agree with me.
Doesn't that just make men who seek LTR's morons?
You get more sex, leverage and variety with plates. You get more drama, work and obligations with LTR's.
Why again is the LTR the smart choice?
l_e_g_e_n_d
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I'm glad that you make this concession; specifically, that LTRs are hard work, and are thus not easy.Poon King said:
To the untrained eye, it could appear that those who entertain the harder roads are "morons," and the easy road of plate-spinning is ripe for the picking. Looking deeper, though, there is a trade-off. Why would some men purposefully choose an LTR, when with LTRs (as you said), "you get more drama, work, and obligations"?
Answer: There is a greater return (for me) in LTRs.
Example:
I delineated an example earlier in this thread demonstrating how my date weekend of 5 girls will take/has taken 10 hours of my time. During plate spinning, while a harem is in play, you still need to approach. In addition, to the approach. if you are keeping a harem of three women, you need to communicate and spend time with three women as opposed to one.
In LTRs, I spend little time dating. Generally, I will take the LTR along with whatever I'm doing, as I lead an exciting life, and just her spending time with me in what I would normally do, suffices her and my frame.
Fact: I lose 5-10 hours a week spinning plates.
Let's go further:
I'm self-employed. My business generates 150 per hour. Great, right?! Wrong. My first 50 hours a week (200 hours monthly or 30k/monthly) is to service my monthly business and personal expenses. Every hour above 200 hours monthly is net savings. For me to save 120k a year, 150 pre-tax (with much R/E depreciation write-offs), I need to work 66 hours a week.
5-10 (average 7.5 hrs) hours a week in plate spinning costs me $1,125 weekly or $58,500 gross or $46,800 net per year in net savings. Going further I leverage commercial financing with 25% deposits, in areas in New York, where my due diligence shows that rents will increase over 300% in the next 20-25 years. Commercial real-estate (5 units+) are valued based on net operating income (rents-expenses), and thus all my R/E holdings in the next 20-25 years will appreciate a minimum of 300%. With 25% deposits on these assets, my rate of return (deposit/appreciation) is 1200% over 20-25 yrs (If anyone needs guidance in these type of plays, PM me).
Bottomline: Perpetual plate spinning costs me $46,800 per year, or $561,600 NPV per year. Plate spinning (for me) is stupid game.
Agree with Poon. None of these are benefits of a LTR. Built in support system? More time for hobbies? More frequent sex? One does not equate to the other in any situation.
Even If things get a little difficult for her, she will disappear and will tell everyone you are to blame you for the relationship.
The only benefit I think of is image. You may get invited to more places and parties with a girlfriend than as a single guy.