Another perspectgive on LTRs

[ChristopherColumbus]

You often hear of men complaining that there are no rules and order to relationships these days, that there is no loyalty. Having been hurt, having been disillusioned, we have decided to adapt ourselves to the prevailing conditions, to become more realistic in our relations with the opposite sex. We realize the conditions are chaotic, and that we need to take the defensive and offensive at times. Relationships have devolved into power, where they are now comparable to a kind of war; one 'frame' or the other, the masculine or the feminine, will win out. Yet, the whole aim of warfare is to re-make a new order, which all can peaceably live under. It was only the barbarians who incessantly fought with only power in mind.

And the reality is we have reverted to barbarism. So what is a man to do, what is the manly thing to do, in such circumstances? He must once again become a warrior, and in particular a disciplined Roman one, where the ideals of rationality and order hold sway. The Roman declared war on barbarism, and overcame it due to discipline, reason and order. He was not interested in unceasing warfare but in establishing a Pax Romana by which people could live peacefully together under the rule of law. Yes, the sexes are at war, yes there is a power struggle, but you only engage in warfare in so far as you can envisage securing a peaceful order in the future. You do not war for war’s sake. There is a goal toward which you strive. There is the means, and there is the end. Given the ruins within which we live, all of this is to be achieved in the microcosm of our own lives. You go out, meet woman, fight some skirmishes, fight a few battles, retreat here, and advance here, then find a province submit, she brings a tribute, you sign a treaty, you make peace. Peace is secured, and with it the ideal of a loving long term relationship.

 

[Serenity]

My solution is to not engage in power struggles, to neither be defensive nor offensive. I have no interest in taking part in a "war", it serves me better to walk away.

I negotiate rules in a relationship, any rule that is agreed upon must apply to both. If she tries negotiating any rule that puts her at an advantage and me at a disadvantage it's unfair. I will never agree to such a rule so I will force two choices, drop it or be gone.

My idea of a good relationship is one where both have the same frame. Me and my girlfriend is an example of this, we see most things the same way. We've been together for over a year and have not had a single argument, we just come to the same conclusions and agree. If there ever was or is a fight I won't fight, if that leads to the end of the relationship I would prefer that. If the synchronization is lost there is no relationship.

A stupid amount of people try to override others frame with their own. If two people do this it's going to be a conflict. Some human behaviors are pretty idiotic when observed from the outside. From the inside they see their own narrow frame, from the outside I see people creating a conflict by doing the same. Trying to argue with someone who's as stubborn as themselves and not realizing someone has to give up for there to be any progress.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

I guess I am still all for the masculine role of 'dominating' the female, but it is not just a case of projecting your own frame onto them for wouldn't that just be egoism.

I am thinking more along the lines of some 'chain of Being', where as men we first submit our own ego - tied up as it is with self-preservation, power and protection - to some rational ideal. We become grounded, and then bring woman into this order in a relationship. Order has the prevalence over equality.

 

[Silko]

I thought the framing with my last ex was good ... unless she came suddenly with a whole other framing.

You can never predict I think. Yes, you can do stay away of a LTR with too much frame variables (= insecure) on her side as you discover the first months. I think we are often very (selectively) blind here.

 

[Poon King]

A man's only job is to get laid.

The relationship bullsh!t is the woman's problem. Men who make relationships "their" problem have been deeply manipulated.

You'll notice (if you have the balls to try it) that the less f*cks you give about relationships the more respect you get from both women AND men. You also tend to get both women AND men chasing you down for some kind of relationship (friendship or sexual). This is no coincidence.

 

[Silko]

The relationship bullsh!t is the woman's problem. Men who make relationships "their" problem have been deeply manipulated.

You nail exactly what I'm struggling with. Before that abusive relationship (2006-2010) I didnt give a sh1t about having or not having a relationship.
After it, till now, I still need to refind that attitude, or if I get there, it's still very fragile like I discovered with last LTR now.

Tips on keep heading the good way again?

 

[Poon King]

You nail exactly what I'm struggling with. Before that abusive relationship (2006-2010) I didnt give a sh1t about having or not having a relationship.
After it, till now, I still need to refind that attitude, or if I get there, it's still very fragile like I discovered with last LTR now.

Tips on keep heading the good way again?

Live on your own terms and learn to ENJOY freedom.

Women are very skilled at enslaving someone.. then getting them to love their chains. All that's really happening is you are getting "used to" her. Similar to how you get used to living in a certain location or eating at a certain restaurant. You don't NEED that location or restaurant to be happy.. you are just used to it so you miss it when its gone.

Men would benefit from learning not to cling to things. Change is constant. Learn to love freedom and new experiences. This is what gives you that masculine independence that makes a man so sexy to begin with.

 

[thatfeel]

Lol, humanity is so fvcked up.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

Another beta was cancelled on five times for a first date and he kept accepting her fake excuses. Finally she said she's busy and said she would call him, which of course never happened.

A Don Juan knows when to bow out with no ill feelings.

 

[guru1000]

OP, I read your post twice. And I'm still here scratching my head trying to figure out the main point you are driving at.

Next time:

1) Open with your main point;
2) Support your main point with facts;
3) Analyze;
4) Close.

 

[The Duke]

Alright boys answer me this...I got out of a 5yr long term relationship several months back with an HB8. She was super loyal, submissive, believed that men were superior to females, cared a ton about our relationship, good job, basically checked all the right boxes for the most part. I kept a very solid frame thru out the relationship. I was never afraid to end it and she knew that.

At one point I kicked her out for 3months due to behavior issues and she got her own place. She got the message that I meant business and it was a positive turning point in our relationship.

But eventually she wanted to "enslave me" with.....Marriage. I pretty much said no, (even though she was willing to sign a pre-nup). It is nothing but liability for a man that has something to offer. Did I want to end the deal I had.....no I didn't. Girls like her aren't on every corner and I really didn't want to lose her, but I respect myself and my assets and understand what 99.9% of females are all about at the end of the day.

She was fully aware that she was more into me, than I was her. But it kept things working good that way. Whenever we had a serious argument I would remind her that she could walk at any point she wasn't happy. For 5yrs she never once took me up on my offer.

In the end it is a struggle for power that I don't see any way to win. The problem lies with the female never being satisfied. Marriage would have kept her happy for a while, but then what? They always want the relationship to progress. I did everything almost perfect, and I still couldn't win.

These days, there is nothing keeping a woman tied to a man. Society has said its ok for a woman to make her own money, have multiple partners, do her own thing, own a house, be a single mommy, live by herself, etc. She doesn't have to be with a man if she doesn't get what she wants. Society told them "they could have it all"! So when Howie offers every thing but marriage, she says the END! And I have no doubt there will be some chump that puts a ring on it in the next 2yrs. My last 5 girls have all been married within 2yrs of our relationship ending.

If you guys have any ideas, I'm all ears.

Here's another thing I've thought about. What if I did have an air-tight prenup and did sign up for marriage? If she started acting bad then just divorce her. Its pretty easy to get divorced. Just fill out some papers and stand in front of a judge. Whats the big deal? After my first divorce, I'm pretty tough a 2nd one won't bother me. Marriage is meaningless anyways. I have no doubts, if women had nothing to gain from marriage, they wouldn't want them so bad.

 

[resilient]

Men would benefit from learning not to cling to things. Change is constant. Learn to love freedom and new experiences. This is what gives you that masculine independence that makes a man so sexy to begin with.

Awesome stuff, PK. This reminds me of one of my favorite In Flames songs - Transparent

Consume all the obscene
Persuade the most hideous and ugly
Under every pile and stone
A rebirth, for you to find

Freedom is to be able
To go in any direction
So take the uncertain path

One foot in the open
Ten feet ahead
Build your own ladder
And don't lie to yourself

Secrets left above the grave (It's not for one to keep)
You're all so self destructive
Spend more time with the broken (see what became of their mistake)
You know you're lost when you feel transparent

Be at one with the wind
Even if it's a struggle
Make this your priority

Open all your senses
To new impressions
Act like all that was has vanished

This reminds me of a beta and the woman he was hoping to date. He became her friend and starting doing favors for her. He asked her for some favors and she wouldn't do them. Yet he continued to be her friend. Then went on until one day he begged her for help with something and she shut the friendship down.

True. Supplication comes from a state of weakness. Low frame/self-worth....

 

[The Duke]

Ideas for what, mate? That particular relationship had just ran it's course.

Let another idiot do the grunt work.

Ideas to keep it going with out submitting to marriage is what I was asking about. Is there such a solution? I like to win at everthing and maybe thats my problem. I feel like there was no way for me to win this and there will never be a solution to this problem.

Perhaps I should change my mindset and realize I did win.....I didn't have to get married, I didn't set my self up for any risks, I got what I wanted. Time to wash, rinse, and repeat I suppose. Nothing lasts forever!

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

OP, I read your post twice. And I'm still here scratching my head trying to figure out the main point you are driving at.

Next time:

1) Open with your main point;
2) Support your main point with facts;
3) Analyze;
4) Close.

There is more to thought than the analytical argumentative frame of mind of a first year university student. This post is more like a story about how things might be as opposed to some syllogistic argument. You imaginatively engage with a story, with the quality of mind a philosopher by the name of Vico called fantasia. This is how we understand history, and other cultures. This frame of mind enables you, for a moment, to bracket your own preconceptions, and immerse yourself in another point of view, or paradigm, or whatever you want to call it. It liberates you from the cave-like confines of the Cogito. You need not suspend all critical faculties however, but ask whether the account is coherent and plausible. Why stay a prisoner in a cave, spellbound by some fake flickering ideological representation of the world, when you can escape to enjoy the world itself? Free your mind.

 

[guru1000]

There is more to thought than the analytical argumentative frame of mind of a first year university student. This post is more like a story about how things might be as opposed to some syllogistic argument. You imaginatively engage with a story, with the quality of mind a philosopher by the name of Vico called fantasia. This is how we understand history, and other cultures. This frame of mind enables you, for a moment, to bracket your own preconceptions, and immerse yourself in another point of view, or paradigm, or whatever you want to call it. It liberates you from the cave-like confines of the Cogito. You need not suspend all critical faculties however, but ask whether the account is coherent and plausible. Why stay a prisoner in a cave, spellbound by some fake representation of the world, when you can ascend and enjoy the world itself.

That's great verbiage and sounds interesting. What's the main point of the original post?

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

That's great verbiage and sounds interesting. What's the main point of the original post?

A mans' mission is to create order out of chaos.

 

[guru1000]

A mans' mission is to create order out of chaos.

I like that. I always had an affinity toward paradoxical truths. Masculine complements the feminine: Order vs. Chaos; Testosterone vs. Estrogen.

Hence why it's entirely "unnatural" for the feminine to control the relation as it's the man's duty. Also why you cannot fault a woman for creating chaos, as it's within her nature.

 

[Silko]

Ideas to keep it going with out submitting to marriage is what I was asking about. Is there such a solution?

Like how many years?

True, women can do more and are less in independent than before. Think it is a normal thing.
BUT. It is a new thing in history, and A LOT of women are freaking out on this and become abusive (without knowing maybe).

We can only face it. About 50y, quite sure this will became a less aggresive 'game'.
Also any education with the family picture as the only true one doesn't help a lot. Indirectly, even if we abandoned religion, it's still freaking everywhere after all those centuries.

Stay tuned

 

[mrgoodstuff]

Like how many years?

True, women can do more and are less in independent than before. Think it is a normal thing.
BUT. It is a new thing in history, and A LOT of women are freaking out on this and become abusive (without knowing maybe).

It just happens, and happens again. It's called "power". They are "power tripping", and the pendulum has swung their way if they are dealing with anyone who is not a more dominant alpha dj.

We can only face it. About 50y, quite sure this will became a less aggresive 'game'.
Also any education with the family picture as the only true one doesn't help a lot. Indirectly, even if we abandoned religion, it's still freaking everywhere after all those centuries.

Stay tuned

The "war" may settle out to where they desire to fill their roles and reward their families in that way. But this time appreciated and not taken for granted. It will take years, maybe decades and maybe centuries. Or maybe the true family structure is destroyed for ever. Gay marriage will be the normal relation format, and male-female will be a free for all, every "man" for himself.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

You write good stories. I mean this as a compliment. But, you lack real-world relevance.

There is no single game. A Don Juan will create, or choose, his own reality. He does not look to be 'relevant' to the 'real world', but lives a self-determined life. A guess this more about 'inner' game.

Perhaps that first begins with creating rational order in his own psyche. I'd say 99% of the women problems that have plagued men here on this site have come about from an out of control libido. But that's another topic for another day.