How to Hold Interest Between the First and Second Date

[Jeffst1980]

One common problem with cold approach pickup (and dating in general) is that you are automatically penalized for being a stranger. You can go out and have a great date with a girl, only to have all the attraction evaporate in a few days as you exchange text messages, trying to plan another date.

The fact that you aren't someone that she sees regularly in her daily life means that it will be VERY difficult for her to feel any type of connection to you until you sleep with her. However, if you attempt to "forge" a connection by texting her continually, you will likely be punished for showing too much eagerness. It's a catch 22; this is why most traditional "dating" models don't lead to relationships.

The best strategy is to mimic the communication strategies of high valued men and prey on her need for validation. This is what it means to be a "challenge." Since the chemistry from your first date will be forgotten in days, the only way to get her interest level up is going to be to plant the seed that you aren't sure about her yet and have other prospects.

This means to avoid giving her any closure following the first date. Don't make plans for a second date on the first one, don't text her to make sure she got in ok at the end of the night, and don't text her the next day to thank her for a nice time. Wait at least a couple of days, unless she contacts you first...and even then, show restraint. Her need for validation is going to be the key to getting her out with you again, so you need to make her feel that tension and uncertainty.

When you DO ask her out again, keep it short and sweet- don't try too hard to be witty and keep these dates SIMPLE. A man valued by many women will NOT bend over backwards trying to impress a girl he just met. Trying to impress her will send her running at this stage in the game.

In the event that she can not make the day you suggest and doesn't offer an alternate day, say nothing. Either wait for her to text you again, or wait a week and contact her.

If she cancels the second date abruptly, say nothing.

The common thread in these responses is to treat disinterest with amplified disinterest- meaning that you won't even offer her closure by saying, "sure, that ok." This is the only way you can demonstrate value in these situations.

I hate game playing, and it's a shame that two people that like each other can't just go out and be transparent with one another. Unfortunately, part of building a connection with a woman lies in having her feel insecure about your feelings towards her -- in the early stages, anyway. If you've had a string of (seemingly) great first dates, only to have the girl disappear afterwards, it is because you failed to leave room for doubt. You will have much better luck if you disappear for a bit immediately following the first date.

 

[PepperSpray]

Great advice OP. I used to believe that after a great first date, preserving the "emotional momentum" of the first date was key. Now I believe that girls will interpret that as neediness and it will send them running. A more aloof approach is key - get them chasing you and feeling like they've won you over.

This is a recent experience of mine.


Met her doing a day game approach on campus Friday two weeks ago. Tall blonde, 22, 7.5, bio major, slightly socially awkward but cute, somewhat of a loner, lives at home with her parents.
 
Met up for drinks the following Friday. Split two pitchers, brought her back to my place, make out, but she suddenly becomes non-responsive and starts to pass out on me (no clothes come off). Didn’t escalate hard physically and try to get the panties off as with most girls I bring back to the crib - saw some long term potential with this one. I walked her home (too tipsy to drive) – hold hands and walk arm in arm part of the way.
 
She texts me on Saturday.
 

Her: Hey how are u did u enjoy yourself last night
Me: I had a good time, in TO now. so how bad was your hangover this morning

No response.
 
No contact Sunday or Monday.
 
I text her on Tuesday 9:30PM:

Me: just drove by a girl in leather go go boots and thought of you. how was your long weekend?
Her: Haha it was alright a bit too much procrastination making up for it now you?
Me: lol awesome. worked on the magazine project I told you about. went to my Helen's friend's big fat Italian/Chinese wedding... Asian grandmas dancing to rap = win
Her: Ah right you were saying that sounds like a good time i did go kayaking down the grand yesterday...beautiful weather stunning fall colours
Me: awesome ya the fall foliage is amazing. gotta cook now I'll call you in a bit

 
Call, chat about my weekend, ask about hers. Some teasing and callback humour about our Friday night. Tell her my schedule’s busy but I might be free again this Friday. She says she may have the weekend free but may be going out with a friend on Friday. Tell her I’m out of town this weekend (legit). I end the phone call by telling her I’ll text later this week to confirm. Conversation is about 30 minutes.
 
No contact on Wednesday.
 
Text her on Thursday 8:30PM.

I just dominated two 60 yr old men at pool. self esteem = all time high. how did your midterm go?

No response.
 
Call her at 10:30. She doesn’t pick up. I don’t leave a voicemail but text her:

hey just called

 
She texts me back a few minutes later.

Oh sh*t sorry didnt realize cell was in the other room  and it appears i do have prior engagements bed now!

I don’t respond.
 
Am I losing her? Normally I wouldn’t care but this was a girl I felt a genuine connection with. How do I salvage this?
 
Here’s the girl:
http://tindeck.com/listen/jxek

 

[Jeffst1980]

Not much you can do at this point...your big mistake was rewarding her lack of response to a text by calling her a couple hours later. This gets interpreted as neediness. Add this to the fact that she's 22, and this one is probably not going to go anywhere.

However, since you have a history of calling and texting fairly regularly, going "no contact" suddenly might work for you. Don't send her any more messages; if she has even slight interest, she'll text you again in a week or so, fishing for validation. Ignore this text for AT LEAST a day or so--you want to make her think that you've been busy to care about whether or not she's interested (as opposed to posting about her on sosuave...heheh).

The main thing to remember with texting is that you get FAR BETTER results by being "rude" i.e. ignoring her questions, stopping midway through conversations, taking forever to respond, or sending vague non sequitur messages. Asking her how her midterm went, etc. before she's invested in you will not make you stand out. Having absolutely piss poor texting "manners" will, however. Incorporate a little of this girl's flakiness into your game and you'll see better results.

 

[maverick72]

2 mistakes

Your being too excited and needy.

 

[omkara]

I got lucky, I met a girl who I don't have to play games with. Sure she could be better looking, and she's my age, but she's a lot better than I've been doing. Basically a girl that I don't mind being seen with or taking to a respectable place. She happens to not know a lot of people in town, even though she's lived here half her life. She is just legitimately looking for a decent guy to hang out with.

For these reasons and because I had already developed rapport over email, I was able to break some of the "rules." I set up the second date on the first date. Bought us tickets to go to a show for our second date (mostly because I wanted to go and I'm a generous spirit.) I Gave her some compliments that actually showed I was qualifying her (made her feel special - ie not compliments about her looks). I also planted some seeds of doubt in her with little teasing jokes. Like before our second date I texted her 'please try not to embarrass me : P.' That's really as far as I can go without feeling like a jerk. For me it's a fine balance between maintaining my integrity and getting girls that I consider quality. And I think I'm getting to the point where I'm able to maintain that balance.

I just keep pushing until the girl gives signs of disinterest. If I'm not playing enough games for her, then oh well. So meeting this girl is the result of my months of initiating combined with my filter process, ie heavily selecting for realness and filtering out any signs of *****iness. Really in my experience the times I've screwed up it's been more from showing low self-esteem or DLV than letting her feel like we're building something. Over 30's women like to see little signs of commitment.

And, what I'm about to lay down here is gold, not coming from me intially but from an experienced player who I read on the internet: You want the woman to feel neither too validated nor too insecure. Keep it somewhere in that middle range where she's just a little bit unsure but maybe thinking it could lead somewhere, and you're in the zone. It's been working pretty well for me lately. In fact Roissy basically said the same thing in his post today:

"A wise man feeds the hamster just enough pellet to make it hungry for more. Too little, and it remains unperturbed from its hamster ennui. Too much, and it lumbers away to sleep off a sated stupor."

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2011/10/17/the-four-month-flake/

 

[PepperSpray]

I hate game playing, and it's a shame that two people that like each other can't just go out and be transparent with one another. Unfortunately, part of building a connection with a woman lies in having her feel insecure about your feelings towards her -- in the early stages, anyway. If you've had a string of (seemingly) great first dates, only to have the girl disappear afterwards, it is because you failed to leave room for doubt. You will have much better luck if you disappear for a bit immediately following the first date.

Solid advice.

However, playing devil's advocate here...

Guy likes girl. However, he doesn't want to come across as too needy. He doesn't intiate contact.
Girl likes guy. However, she doesn't want to come across as too available. She doesn't initiate contact.

End result - nothing comes of this interaction, nobody wins.

It's unfortunate that two people who truly like each other cannot be open and transparent about their intentions. All this game-playing leads to frustration and a dead end.

Is it not the man's perogative to LEAD the interaction forward (and accept the risk of rejection)? Women will seldom initiate.

 

[Jeffst1980]

Solid advice.

However, playing devil's advocate here...

Guy likes girl. However, he doesn't want to come across as too needy. He doesn't intiate contact.
Girl likes guy. However, she doesn't want to come across as too available. She doesn't initiate contact.

End result - nothing comes of this interaction, nobody wins.

It's unfortunate that two people who truly like each other cannot be open and transparent about their intentions. All this game-playing leads to frustration and a dead end.

Is it not the man's perogative to LEAD the interaction forward (and accept the risk of rejection)? Women will seldom initiate.

Certainly, your job as a man is to initiate- not just the first, but every date. However, once you've made your pitch, there is little reason to "follow up." If you've asked her out and she cancels, don't say anything--she KNOWS that it's up to her to counter with another date if she wants to see you again. Same thing with calls/text; if you text her and get no response, DO NOT text again. This forces her to pull her weight and invest in the interaction, lest she lose a source of validation at the very least. I'm a big fan of being persistent- the trick is to do so without coming across as needy. Persistent means giving her OPPORTUNITIES to invest in you- you aren't going to do ALL the work.

If you get no response, let it go for a couple of weeks, and THEN you may resume texting. A couple of weeks of no contact often acts as a reset switch- you never know what may be going on in a girl's life at a given time, and I find that girls don't forget that you're a cool dude, even if they flake initially.

re: your devil's advocate hypothetical situation- most of the time, that's how things go down- even when you REALLY have your s#it together! It's sad and frustrating, and proof that possessing high status among men in general will not give you an edge over guys in her social circle. You may be a high powered lawyer, but the DJ in her local dive bar will STILL trump you when it comes to status! This is why cold approach pickup is such a numbers game, and why the clear majority of relationships form from social circles.




To give another example: Guy goes on great date with girl. Guy initiates contact several days later, plans second date for following week. Girl cancels day before because of legitimate excuse, offers counter date. Guy is going out of town for a week and can not reschedule till following week. Guy returns and attempts to set another date, but all momentum is lost; girl blows him off due to his "neediness."

^^In this situation, there really was nothing "needy" about what the guy did; the problem is that the girl was put off by the fact that he still wanted to have a second date, even though 3-4 weeks had passed since the first one. For girls in their early to mid 20s with a lot of options, this is unacceptable.

If this was a guy in her social circle that she would see anyway, he could return and continue to game her without it being "weird." Such is the illogical world in which we live. But, the good news in all of this is that there is NO REASON to take a girl's flakiness personally. Keep getting numbers and something will stick!

 

[omkara]

^^In this situation, there really was nothing "needy" about what the guy did; the problem is that the girl was put off by the fact that he still wanted to have a second date, even though 3-4 weeks had passed since the first one. For girls in their early to mid 20s with a lot of options, this is unacceptable.

I consider someone who thinks like this to be a piece of s*** as a human being and not worth talking to even for one second. Who cares what they think is "acceptable" or "unacceptable"? By buying into their frame, you are giving away all your power.

The reason why women are so self-centered nowadays is because most guys will surrender to their frame unquestioningly, just so they can get laid.

 

[Jeffst1980]

I consider someone who thinks like this to be a piece of s*** as a human being and not worth talking to even for one second. Who cares what they think is "acceptable" or "unacceptable"? By buying into their frame, you are giving away all your power.

The reason why women are so self-centered nowadays is because most guys will surrender to their frame unquestioningly, just so they can get laid.

Well, keep in mind that you don't run into these types of problems with girls that are a bit older and really want to settle down. So, it's your decision whether or not you want to deal with the kind of girls I'm talking about- which are the most attractive younger ones with short attention spans. It's our curse as men that we desire them the most.

 

[Blusher]

The advice you give is valid but I can't agree with your initial assumption:

One common problem with cold approach pickup (and dating in general) is that you are automatically penalized for being a stranger. You can go out and have a great date with a girl, only to have all the attraction evaporate in a few days as you exchange text messages, trying to plan another date.

It surely doesn't have to be that way even if this is your personal experience.

If you hold this to be universally true then you just reinforce a limiting thought. My parents encounter was cold approach. Same with my LTR and so many before that.

It's important to stress this out as it could end up being a self-fullfilling prophecy.

Another crucial point is to understand that attraction and rapport are triggered DURING the initial encounter or date.

Text msg or phone calls only serve the purpose of setting up the next date (when and where). period.

If you consider texting a way to keep the flame burning then you may very well end up sounding needy or clingy.

So yes, in between dates: Less is more. One or two messages to set up a date. and leave it at that.

Give her a chance to miss you or at least look forward to the next event.

 

[PepperSpray]

So I text this girl tonight - first contact made in two weeks.

Me: I just met your twin
Her: Whaaat
Her: Send me a pic i wanna see haha
Me: shes gone now. youre def the bad twin tho. how've you been?
Her: What did i ever do to deserve that title im fine u?
Me: major writers block. got a sec?
Her: Okay

Called her up, chatted for about 20 minutes. Some teasing, a funny travel story, and catching up with what's going on with our lives. Didn't attempt to ask her out - this was strictly a "reconnect after the freezeout" call.

There might still be some potential here as she responded right away to my texts and invested time in the phone call. Like Jeff said, I've a feeling that girls don't forget that you're a cool dude even if they flake initially.

I'm thinking of going no contact again for the remainder of this week. I'll call her up again on Wed/Thurs next week and maybe try to schedule something for the following weekend. Is this a sound strategy?

 

[Trump]

I hate game playing, and it's a shame that two people that like each other can't just go out and be transparent with one another. Unfortunately, part of building a connection with a woman lies in having her feel insecure about your feelings towards her -- in the early stages, anyway. If you've had a string of (seemingly) great first dates, only to have the girl disappear afterwards, it is because you failed to leave room for doubt. You will have much better luck if you disappear for a bit immediately following the first date.

Seen alot advice you've given and most of it is solid.

Except the first line above. You shouldn't say you hate game playing, you'll get crushed. Life is all about game playing, in business, in sports, in love, in death, in dating, in sex, in money, in relationships. It's competition, human nature, the survival of the fittest.

Men should always should hold their cards close your chest, never reveal anything to the other side. Once the girl has fallen in love, then the man can decide whether to reciprocate or not. But if a man goes out with a girl and is transparent (I love you, I trust you, I can't live without you...etc) he's showing he's emotionally involved and the girl will eventually CRUSH him.

 

[PepperSpray]

Hey Jeffst1980,

Tried to PM your inbox but it's full!

You consistently offer some of the best advice on this forum, so I'm hoping for your feedback on my situation here.

I followed your advice and you were exactly right. Just wanted your advice on how to proceed from here...

Thanks man, really appreciate all the solid advice you contribute to this forum. It's vital that us rookies learn from experienced players like you.

 

[Pair A Dice]

Pepper,

What I see your problem being is that you are waiting entirely too long to initiate a second date with this woman. She was mildly interested after the first date, as your make-out showed, but then with no contact, she put you on the back burner. If not then, especially when you sent a text, THEN called her after.

At this moment, you should have waited, which you did, then called again to spark an interest, and get a date set up. You called to spark the interest, but failed to set up the date.

It's been a while since you first went out with this girl, so you're going to be back to square one before you know it.

 

[big weezy]

if she texts you after the 1st date to say 'thank you for a pleasant evening. good night' an hour after it has finished and it's late i.e. 1am

is delaying saying 'you're welcome' till the morning a better tactic as you've suggested about making them feel insecure?

 

[The_411]

It's a matter of you deciding to make a move and when. Certainly calling after the date ended will look like you have no life and calling 3 weeks later makes you look like an ass.

It almost doesn't matter when you call as long as your call doesn't come across as needy or pedestal the woman.

 

[Jeffst1980]

Pepper,

What I see your problem being is that you are waiting entirely too long to initiate a second date with this woman. She was mildly interested after the first date, as your make-out showed, but then with no contact, she put you on the back burner. If not then, especially when you sent a text, THEN called her after.

At this moment, you should have waited, which you did, then called again to spark an interest, and get a date set up. You called to spark the interest, but failed to set up the date.

It's been a while since you first went out with this girl, so you're going to be back to square one before you know it.

Wrong. Waiting to set up a date maintains intrigue; setting another date right away kills intrigue. A girl will NOT put you on the back burner for being mysterious; she WILL, however, if she knows you're already angling for a relationship with her after one date.

Think about it honestly: if you had a great date with a girl and she ignored your texts afterwards, would you forget about it after a week? Probably not- you'd be confused and wonder why she won't talk to you. THAT'S how you build "momentum" between dates. Sending daily reminders of how witty you are will make you look needy, guaranteed.

 

[Jeffst1980]

if she texts you after the 1st date to say 'thank you for a pleasant evening. good night' an hour after it has finished and it's late i.e. 1am

is delaying saying 'you're welcome' till the morning a better tactic as you've suggested about making them feel insecure?

I probably wouldn't respond at all. I feel like boring "courtship" exchanges like this one suck the intimacy out of any encounter and cement the "traditional dating" frame, which no longer works. Similarly, when a girl asks you to text her when you get home... don't do it.

 

[PepperSpray]

Update:

After no-contact for a week, I sent a "restart text" and called this girl on Friday and chatted for about 20 min. Got her laughing and while we're at a conversational high I cut the convo short by telling her I was gonna pre-party with friends. She asks what bar, I say I'm not sure yet. She says "I'd actually invite myself but I have work to do."

I take this as a huge IOI and ask how her calendar is this wknd. She says she'd be busy but counteroffered with later next wk after her midterm. I say "sure we'll work something out."

Looks like there's still potential with this one despite it being a month since I last saw her. Shows the importance of no contact while "pinging" with a random text once a week week so you're still on her mind; also I didn't ask her out on our first phone call since our date (to convey non-neediness), and this was only the second phone call.

I assume there is still some interest. Oddly, she never initiates texts but some girls are like that.

The advice here in this thread is gold. As counter-intuitive as it seems, no contact does work!

 

[Ilboy]

dude, stop the texting and then calling.
Just call her right away. You're a big boy, you don't need permission via text to call her. Keep your conversations short. I think 20 or 30 minute phone conversations with a girl you barely know is waaaaaay too long.
I have a friend who wanted to game a girl I am good friends with and when talking to her she was like "yeah first he send me messages and then he called and we talked for like 20 minutes about boring stuff", she then told me she was just hanging in there in order not to look unpolite.

Just call her, "Hey how was your day? Cool, mine was cool, too. What are you doing on Friday night? I am going to this-and-that, wanna come? Yes/No? Cool, bye"
This should be it. You make it look like you don't need her, you can have fun without her, and you are not going out of your way for her.

I know it's hard, but I think you are showing way more neediness than you want.

Hope this helps.