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"How to Win Friends and Influence People" and the Alpha male?

diplomatic_lies

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After reading How To Win Friends and Influence People, I got a constant message: always listen to peoples' opinion, respect their opinion, and never overtly disagree, but to change their minds you need to agree with them first.

Yet I've also picked up that to be an alpha male, you musn't give a sh!t about other people.


How should the two be meshed? I don't want to "not give a sh!t", but at the same time don't want to end up like a wuss. Yet I'm not sure how to achieve this.

Should I express my own opinions openly, even if it offends people? Or should I covertly suggest my opinion while respecting everyone's opinion? How are the two ideals (Dale Carnegie's views and the Alpha male) mixed together?
 

Aurelio Tiziano

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Very interesting post.

I thought about it myself, and it occured to me that Carnegie's book is a book tobe used in business situations.
This is in fact how you make business acquaintances and how you sell to people,
how to "Influence" them, but I don't think it helps to acquire friendships


Cheers
 

XYZ

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who said that you must not give a sh!t about other people to become an alpha male???
 

Dark Nimbus

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The Alpha Male does not disrespect other peoples opinions, he caters to the needs of everyone while still speaking his mind in an intelligent manner on topics he cares about. He's charming, funny, assertive, and often times a good rhetoric.

If you put people down, you'll look like a bully or thug, and you won't get any attention by gaining respect, instead you'll get it by intimidation and fear.

If all else fails, carry a football around with you at all times and when you feel there isn't enough attention coming your way, just stand up and say "me good, throw ball hard, ball is pretty, me run fast" and storm out of the room like a man possessed.
 

Drex

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I've read that book 2 times and I am currently 3/4 through reading it for the 3rd time...It's titled "How to win friends.." not girlfriends. I believe different rules apply to picking up a woman. If you do what is in that book you are going to land in the LJBF zone.
 

John Powers

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Originally posted by Aurelio Tiziano:
Very interesting post.

I thought about it myself, and it occured to me that Carnegie's book is a book tobe used in business situations.
This is in fact how you make business acquaintances and how you sell to people,
how to "Influence" them, but I don't think it helps to acquire friendships


Cheers
I'd disagree with this, I don't think that the book is confined only to business. It certainly has a business element, but it is about human nature. Business people do not have different underlying needs than anyone else. It is true that many of the examples used in the book are business oriented, but the principles should apply to everybody. I'm not ragging on you, but I wanted other people who haven't read the book to get a better idea of what it is about. I've read it multiple times, and just finshed listening to it on audiobook again. If the business aspects are all you have got out of it, you should read it again.

As to the larger point of the topic, interesting question. I don't think that the alpha male has to not give a sh1t about anybody. But the alpha male should primarily be concerned with himself, his own happiness and success. In my method of thinking, if Dale Carnagie's tools for dealing with people can provide you with increased success and happiness in life, then it is not incongruent with the alpha male. Also keep in mind that many of the great men who he talks about who used his principles, were leaders and alpha males.
But I do also see where some of his advice does not directly translate into the dating game. But I think a lot of it can be directly plugged into the dating game. Other advice is obviously contextual. Just as in the same way as you wouldn't do the same things for a girl as you would for your friend. Certainly you would never see Dale advising neg-hits etc. and obviously the book was written in a far different time from the dating world we know today. But I think that his principles can help you become the "great guy" we talk about.


------------------
We cannot reason ourselves out of our basic irrationality.
All we can do is learn the art of being irrational in
a reasonable way. -- Island -- Aldous Huxley

John Powers -out!
 

Lionheart

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I think that being the alpha male comes from a serene happiness myself, when you are truly happy within yourself you just radiated this confidence and happiness.

A TRUE man listens to his friends' opinions whether he agrees or not, puts forward his opinions in a logical way and is not afraid to agree to disagree.

I have nothing but contempt for sad, unhappy people who use intimidation and physical threats to attempt to make up for their unhappiness, I used to hate people like this, now I just feel sorry for them.

On a side note to John Powers, good choice of quotes, Island is probably my favorite book of all time.
One of my fave quotes is that "In the Same Way Webs are in the Nature of Spiders, Religions are in the nature of Human Beings."

Don't wanna start a war / debate, it's just a fave quote of mine
 

diplomatic_lies

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Which areas do you believe in Dale Carnegie's book would be relevant to the dating scene? I've tried out his ideas on men and non-romantic targets, and it seems to work wonderfully, yet I've never tried it on potential dates.

Certainly I see the stuff on getting people to listen/agree with your arguments would work wonderfully in a relationship, but I'm a bit undecided on whether the other stuff might work.

But I can definitely see that by following Carnegie's principles, you could present yourself as a very friendly and charismatic individual, whom people would be glad to assist.
 

Blue Phoenix

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Re: "How to Win Friends and Influence People" and the Alpha male?

Originally posted by diplomatic_lies
After reading How To Win Friends and Influence People, I got a constant message: always listen to peoples' opinion, respect their opinion, and never overtly disagree, but to change their minds you need to agree with them first.

Yet I've also picked up that to be an alpha male, you musn't give a sh!t about other people. How should the two be meshed? I don't want to "not give a sh!t", but at the same time don't want to end up like a wuss. Yet I'm not sure how to achieve this.

Should I express my own opinions openly, even if it offends people? Or should I covertly suggest my opinion while respecting everyone's opinion? How are the two ideals (Dale Carnegie's views and the Alpha male) mixed together?
That's a good question!!!
 
Last edited:

englishman

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Originally posted by Dark Nimbus
The Alpha Male does not disrespect other peoples opinions, he caters to the needs of everyone while still speaking his mind in an intelligent manner on topics he cares about. He's charming, funny, assertive, and often times a good rhetoric.

If you put people down, you'll look like a bully or thug, and you won't get any attention by gaining respect, instead you'll get it by intimidation and fear.
____________________________________________________



Cant agree with this, this sounds like a good guy but not an alpha male..nothing wrong with that..but an alpha male isnt neccesarily a good guy..hes often scary, ruthless and doesnt give a flying fvck about your opinion..
 

MoveYourAss...

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I don't see your problem.

There is no contradiction in respecting the others opinion and not giving a **** about it. Much is won by not "needing" to prove you're right. I think that's the main point of it, and many people are so insecure they need to do this, proving their assumed intellectual superiority. This is near maximum of boring. I know what I'm talking about, I was like that myself a few years ago, and it didn't help to win friends except some other AFC-chumps.

If you want to play the dom game on a girl (or a guy who has just no idea and you want to teach him (question your motivation on this!!)). You can say something like: So that's what you REALLY think? or just look at the person with wake and open eyes. They will break eye contact and realize they just told ****.

This is for (brief) "serious" talk situations, however. At a playing/flirtatios situation obviously other rules apply, and the girl will get it if she has any brains (alternatively a minimum sense of humor). Forget the others.

In the business situation I think it's just the point to respect their point of view/interest and take it from there, offer a solution to THEIR problem, not to yours. Of course you do the latter as well, just don't make it the point of it all.

MoveYourA$$... and your brain will follow
 

Jariel

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Re: "How to Win Friends and Influence People" and the Alpha male?

Originally posted by diplomatic_lies
After reading How To Win Friends and Influence People, I got a constant message: always listen to peoples' opinion, respect their opinion, and never overtly disagree, but to change their minds you need to agree with them first.

Yet I've also picked up that to be an alpha male, you musn't give a sh!t about other people.

How should the two be meshed? I don't want to "not give a sh!t", but at the same time don't want to end up like a wuss. Yet I'm not sure how to achieve this.
Firstly, you are dead on the mark with the first paragraph. To earn people's respect, you must first show them respect. Charisma is all about making other people feel good while in your presence, and this is the key to being popular.

As for being an alpha male, I'd consider it more a case of not giving a sh1t about people's criticism rather than the people themselves. An alpha male needs the respect of other people in order to be an alpha male.

Most of the time being the alpha male comes from an "aura" or a "presence" you carry around with you, which usually reflects your inner confidence.
 

MoveYourAss...

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nice reply Jraiel, just came back to state a similar point:

You should not give a **** if they say:

you can't do that
you shouldn't do that
you're too stupid

Actually it means you should BE AWARE that most people are afraid of any shattering of their believe system, some don't want to change their neatly furnitured social homes they built (circle of friends, that is You, my dear TV-set ;)), others just want to manipulare you. It is simply the most effective mental self-defense system not to be effected at all (actually infected), since it does not really present a danger to you (and your confidence) if YOU just don't allow it to become one.

Your best friends are happy with you evolving. Some others may learn and accept, even join you on the trip. There's not much use in pushing, at least in my experience.

But I think it's advisable to understand what they say, since there might be some valuable information hidden in there.

MoveYourA$$... and your brain will follow
 

Ricky

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I think the alpha male concept isn't always so good for the workplace and thats where Carnegie shines. The alpha male concept may be more useful for strategies with women than anything else.

Yeah being an alpha male will possibly get you promoted, but all the people hating your guts makes work not the best situation.
 

A-Unit

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Ego versus Spirit

The Alpha male portion is a result of the Ego. The need, given our competition and desire in society to be accepted, but to go beyond that, to be supreme. It's the "Everybody wants to be somebody portion."

However, what ills me about those who believe they must be supreme, or take from others to get, is that we're all part of 1 life force. If someone were to believe that bilking me out of my money would somehow make them richer, they're wrong. By taking money from me, or wronging me, I wouldn't do business with you. In turn, I'd go tell 10 other people of the bad experience I had. Furthermore, you fail to realize life is not finite, nor is it confined. Each one of us has an infinite energy within, and we're all growing. The boy of today with hopes and dreams could be the next Bill Gates. Your only saving grace is that he's a bigger man than you and would forgive your transgressions.

I remember in high school a particularly tall, and lanky fellow who was ridiculed just for being different. Yes, he was the prototypical "dork," but he was educated. And so what if he didn't have girls? He had the smarts to know and comprehend anything, tutor you in any subject taught in my school, and he would be your best friend to your last breath, so what is so wrong if he follows his own path?

He's gone onto bigger and better things and left that behind, but odds are he won't forget the people that wronged him, and even if he did, they had a negative impact on his life, not a positive one, so it's not like he'd credit them for anything or experience any of the joy he would for his successes.

The (2) mentors I work with COULD be considered Alpha, as they're Type A, business leaders in the community, and are very solid in their beliefs. HOWEVER, they're not so solid as to accept when they're wrong. They realize growth is a process, not a destination. They HAVE to accept other people's opinions and learn to understand them in order to get what they want and transact mutually beneficial arrangements.

The Alpha Male concept is one born of the Ego out of Fear as a role that one could wear when they couldn't life amongst others. It's a facade, like anything else people dub themselves as. Like Beta male, Or Bytch, Or King.

You learn that we all live on the same rock, go through the same things in different ways, and that getting anywhere never happens without the aid of others'.

The problems occur when your Ego gives into "being right", "expressing your opinion," or even "correcting others." MoveYourAss... was right as he stated its a dom game that's never won. And if it is, it's mere perception, because underneath it, the person is secretly building resentment over your imposition.

Besides Alpha and Male apply to animals, where laws of Cause and Effect apply, where they have little use for consciousness and seek only to survive.

Learning to go after what you want, but not needing it to survive is a far better mentality than attempting to consume everything to the detriment of others.

If you impoverish others, attach emotional baggage, or inflict negative emotions, the whirlwind cycles back around to you and does not result in any sort of enlightenment or wisdom. This is what separates the wise versus the unwise.




A-Unit
 

Nocturnal

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Carnegie's book is about putting an image on and using the appeal from it to convince people to do what you want.

He says things like, "be genuinely interested," but in all reality he barely goes into how to be genuinely interested so it's almost a cop out. Faking smiles and interest in other people might make you money, but it won't do anything for your social skills.
 

Ice Cold

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Stop considering "alpha" as the loud obnoxious guy in the bar.

That is an uncivilized alpha. Only works in the environment where you can maim anyone in your way... but when you do, you usually end up in jail. So that's not an option.

BUT: What carnegie says, goes hand in hand with 48 laws of power. Also goes hand in hand with the alpha male theory.

Being alpha = being the "best" or "best adapted" to particular environment.

When you disagree with somebody on an issue, you force them to take a stand on it. Later they will argure just for the sake of not changing their opinion.

However, when you agree with them, they won't remember it:

Example: You hate chick flicks. Your date says she loves them.
You can either start arguing or avoid the whole topic by agreeing that chick flicks are ok.

Then, when you go to the movies, you just buy the tickets for a movie that YOU want to see.

You didn't disagree, you didn't argue, you got what you wanted. :)

Alpha enough?
 
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