"Why "Nice Guys" are often such LOSERS"

[horaholic]

"http://www.heartless-bitc**hes.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml (remove the stars. the link is censored, and wont work.)

Found this link on the 'guys who cares bout girls' facebook thing. Its interesting, and opened my eyes to a lot of things i've been guilty of.

You hear it all the time: "He was such a NICE Guy, and she's such a Heartless ***** for dumping him."

I get letters from self-professed Nice Guys, complaining that women must WANT to be treated like ****, because THEY, the "Nice Guy" have failed repeatedly in relationships. This is akin to the false logic that "Whales are mammals. Whales live in the sea. Therefore, all mammals live in the sea."

If you have one bad relationship after another, the only common denominator is YOU. Think about it.

What's wrong with Nice Guys? The biggest problem is that most Nice Guys (tm) are hideously insecure. They are so anxious to be liked and loved that they do things for other people to gain acceptance and attention, rather than for the simply pleasure of giving. You never know if a Nice Guy really likes you for who you are, or if he has glommed onto you out of desperation because you actually paid some kind of attention to him.

Nice Guys exude insecurity -- a big red target for the predators of the world. There are women out there who are "users" -- just looking for a sucker to take advantage of. Users home-in on "Nice Guys", stroke their egos, take them for a ride, add a notch to their belts, and move on. It's no wonder so many Nice Guys complain about women being horrible, when the so often the kind of woman that gets attracted to them is the lowest form of life...

Self-confident, caring, decent-hearted women find "Nice Guys" to be too clingy, self-abasing, and insecure.

Nice Guys go overboard. They bring roses to a "lets get together for coffee" date. They try to buy her affections with presents and fancy things. They think they know about romance, but their timing is all wrong, and they either come-on too strong, too hard and too fast, OR, they are so shy and unassertive, that they hang around pretending to be "friends", in the hope that somehow, someway, they will get the courage up to ask her out for a "date".

They are so desperate to please that they put aside their own needs, and place the object of their desire on a pedestal. Instead of appreciating her, they worship her. We are only human, and pedestals are narrow, confining places to be -- not to mention the fact that we tend to fall off of them.

They cling to her, and want to be "one" with her for fear that if she is out of sight, she may disappear or become attracted to someone else. A Nice Guy often has trouble with emotional intimacy, because he believes that if she learns about the REAL person inside, she will no longer love him.

Nice Guys are always asking HER to make the decisions. They think it's being equitable, but it puts an unfair burden of responsibility on her, and gives him the opportunity to blame her if the decision was an unwise one.

Nice Guys rarely speak up when something bothers them, and rarely state clearly what it is they want, need and expect. They fear that any kind of conflict might spell the end of the relationship. Instead of comprimising and negotiating, they repeatedly "give in". When she doesn't appreciate their sacrifice, they will complain that, "Everything I did, I did for her.", as if this somehow elevates them to the status of martyrs. A woman doesn't want a martyr. She wants an equal, caring, adult partner.

Nice Guys think that they will never meet anyone as special as she is. They use their adoration as a foundation for claiming that "no one will ever love her as much as I do." Instead of being a profound statement of their devotion, this is a subtle, but nasty insult. It is akin to saying to her: "You are a difficult person, and only *I* can ever truly love you, so be thankful I'm here."

The nice guy -needs- to believe that he is the best person for the object of his desires, because otherwise his insecurities will overrun him with jealousies and fear. The truth of the matter is that there are many people out there who can be a good match for her. We rarely stop loving people we truly care about. Even if we no longer continue the relationship, the feelings will continue... But love isn't mutually exclusive. We can (and do) love many people in our lives, and romantic love is really no different. Though he may love her immensely, there will likely be other people who have loved her just as much in her past, and will love her just as much in the future. The irony of it all is: "Who would want to go out with someone who was inherintly unlovable anyways?"

More than loving the woman in his life, a Nice Guy NEEDS her. "She is my Life, my only source of happiness..." YECH! What kind of a burden is that to place on her? That SHE has to be responsible for YOUR happiness? Get a grip!

Another mistake Nice Guys make is to go after "hard luck" cases. They deliberately pick women with neuroses, problems, and personality disorders, because Nice Guys are "helpers". A Nice Guy thinks that by "helping" this woman, it will make him a better, more lovable person. He thinks it will give him a sense of accomplishment, and that she will appreciate and love him more, for all his efforts and sacrifice. He is usually disappointed by the results.

This ultimately boils down to the fact that Nice Guys don't like themselves. Is it any wonder women don't like them? In order to truly love someone else, you must first love yourself. Too often Nice Guys mistake obsession for "love".

Get this Guys: INSECURITY ISN'T SEXY. IT'S A TURNOFF.

You don't have to be an ego-inflated, arrogant jerk. You just have to LIKE yourself. You have to know what you want out of life, and go after it. Only then will you be attractive to the kind of woman with whom a long-term relationship is possible.

 

[survivorman]

hor,

Hi - I'm survivorman, long time lurker, first time poster.

The Heartless B!tches site is where my journey away from AFC began about ~4yrs ago..
I had just been dumped and dissed by a -well.. heartless b!tch.
In my frustration, I typed "heartless b!tch" into Google, and found their "nice guy" dissertation. Yup, they described ME and my past behavior(s) to a "T".

It was a bitter pill to swallow.

But it set me on the course I'm now on, and through sites such as SS, MGTOW, and NMMNG, my eyes have been opened.

And my journey continues..

 

[J. Darko]

And yet these nice guys get laid more often than a lot of internet heroes do. Now that's some stuff to think about.

 

[synergy1]

And yet these nice guys get laid more often than a lot of internet heroes do. Now that's some stuff to think about.

not the ones I know, and certainly not myself when I was more of a 'nice' guy many many years ago.

There is a difference between a good person, and someone who uses their niceness to leverage something from someone else. This refers to the later.

 

[f283000]

ok let's analyze this

What's wrong with Nice Guys? The biggest problem is that most Nice Guys (tm) are hideously insecure. They are so anxious to be liked and loved that they do things for other people to gain acceptance and attention, rather than for the simply pleasure of giving. You never know if a Nice Guy really likes you for who you are, or if he has glommed onto you out of desperation because you actually paid some kind of attention to him.

Why do we always have to equate doing something nice for someone as trying to get something in return? Do nice guys really do nice things for people so they can get something in return? of course not! they do it because they are just nice and that's the way they are. I really hate having doing something nice being equated to manipulation and wanting something in return. Sure this is the case in soap operas and movies but do most people do nice things just to get something back? I don't think so.

We can blame the media for this they have turned relationships into a game of mind chess. They have made every guy out there into a predator of sorts and every woman into a paranoid witch. You can't even say hi to a woman out of niceness here without them thinking "oh no this guy wants to f____ me" and feeling disgusted for you being nice to them.

Self-confident, caring, decent-hearted women find "Nice Guys" to be too clingy, self-abasing, and insecure.

caring? decent hearted? most women are not that

They are so desperate to please that they put aside their own needs, and place the object of their desire on a pedestal. Instead of appreciating her, they worship her.

Another error we are equating trying to please people and put aside our own needs as somehow a bad thing. Mother Theresa did this all her life and everyone loves her, but if a guy does this he is a "nice guy" and the media and girls don't like him!

Let's cut to the chase here. The real problem is not men going out of their way to please people being considered nice guys and nobody liking them. The problem is that the media and our culture has made the ideal woman a princess/self centered/i just wanna have fun B|OTCH and the ideal man a self centered jerk.

So the guys that don't fit that criteria are left chasing women that are B|OTCHES that look to their ideal men as the guys they see on mtv and movies (jerks who will treat them like crap). Next thing you know it is our fault for being "nice guys" but in reality our fault is not following the trend of the ideal men being put out by the media.

I would like to thank Dr Makow for his articles exposing feminism for un-brainwashing me and letting me see the truth. If you are a veteran of sosuave you have probably read the following, here's for the newbies.

Why men are losing interest in women
How I became a Mensch: After Feminism Stole my Identity
Time to Be Men Again
The conspiracy against heterosexuals

 

[Erik V]

Why do we always have to equate doing something nice for someone as trying to get something in return? Do nice guys really do nice things for people so they can get something in return? of course not! they do it because they are just nice and that's the way they are. I really hate having doing something nice being equated to manipulation and wanting something in return. Sure this is the case in soap operas and movies but do most people do nice things just to get something back? I don't think so.

We can blame the media for this they have turned relationships into a game of mind chess. They have made every guy out there into a predator of sorts and every woman into a paranoid witch. You can't even say hi to a woman out of niceness here without them thinking "oh no this guy wants to f____ me" and feeling disgusted for you being nice to them.

That is true; I really do like to do nice things for people, that's the way I am. I like to help them, and think that this is how I would want to be helped when I need it. I like to send people interesting links in email. I spent six hours helping a friend with his paper in college - a friend I hadn't seen for a long time, just ran into him in the hallway, and wasn't likely to see much of again. Things like that. Help a guy carry a heavy bag up some stairs, or give some money to the girl standing in line before me in the store when she didn't bring enough to pay for her groceries.

Sadly, I know that if I would be this nice to girls, they would think my value is low and drop me. So I don't try to do a girl any favors until we have been seeing each other for a long time. The world is a strange place, isn't it?

 

[J. Darko]

not the ones I know, and certainly not myself when I was more of a 'nice' guy many many years ago.

There is a difference between a good person, and someone who uses their niceness to leverage something from someone else. This refers to the later.

But that's just a Sosuave myth. They are not nice to get something from a girl. It's the way they are and a lot of girls still appreciate it enough to **** their brains out. In the end, Pook was right. There are no rules. I'm afraid that a Don Juan just falls into another category of men that girls like. It doesn't matter if you're shy, confident, desperate or hard to get. It's just about approaching.

 

[Erik V]

But that's just a Sosuave myth. They are not nice to get something from a girl. It's the way they are and a lot of girls still appreciate it enough to **** their brains out. In the end, Pook was right. There are no rules. I'm afraid that a Don Juan just falls into another category of men that girls like. It doesn't matter if you're shy, confident, desperate or hard to get. It's just about approaching.

If that were true, then no matter what you would do or say you would have the same success, as long as you talk to girls, right? That is not my experience at all. It is not just a "myth," the fact that neediness and other things ruin your chances is true.

 

[Darko J.]

You're partially right. Sure, certain behaviour will lower your chances. But! Your behaviour will fluctuate. The ''loser'' might think he doesn't stand a chance with a girl, so he doesn't pay attention to her to protect his feelings. She, however, feels ignored this way and is turned on, causing to chase him and give him the night of his life. Also some girls are not bothered by neediness. For example, when a girl falls in love with you and sets her sights on you, you can't do anything wrong.

Also, regular people do a lot of things right naturally. They don't know any PUA stuff, but they have some friends and they have some fun and one day they just get lucky.

Only special people, like social outcasts or mentally retarded people dneed to work there game, simply because they don't fnction as a normal human being. But any normal human being gets laid naturally.

And even this theory doesn't stand a chance in comparison to real life. Because we've all seen all kinds of men with all kinds of women. It just seems like one big lottery, a game of calculated chance, but especially a game of luck and destiny.

 

[horaholic]

Only special people, like social outcasts or mentally retarded people dneed to work there game, simply because they don't fnction as a normal human being. But any normal human being gets laid naturally.

thats not true. Sure, even hardcore AFC's get laid here and there, but they pretty much take what they can get. You need to game to have multiple options, or get the girls you want, instead of the ones who you can get. Game is the difference between banging new chicks on a regular basis, and banging one every couple-few months.

 

[backbreaker]

alot of people have this perception of a nice guy that isn't true.

when I was a "nice guy" i got laid. quite alot actually. getting laid was not my probelm. Getting laid by the same woman for more than a month without her leaving was.

I was good looking enough and had a swag to myself that would attract women but I could not keep them attracted. the more of ME they saw the more they ran the other way. Too clingy, to needy.

Nice ness doesn't mean youc an't spit a little game. I had a little game to me. I knew how to talk to women to a certain extent. I had no problem going to a woman and saying hey It hink you are cute, let's go out.


but once we were on a date and I saw they were into me, I'd get these dreams of grander in my head and thinking she was the ONE. I'd plan out the next 10 years of our long relationship that we were ovbiously going to have.. asically give them too much credit too soon. We'd do everything together, and my life became that person.
'

I hate the term Nice guy, I like to use the term FAKE guy because the one common theme in all my old relationships is that I was not real with myself and real with the person I was dating. I was nice, I still am nice. I still hold the door open for older person. I'm still yes sir no sir and i'm 26 years old. I have manners, more than once I've stopped what I was doing to take a homeless person something to eat (never give a homeless person money, they go to the liquor store).

there is nothing wrong with being NICE. What's wrong when you are being nice to hide your real feelings. So in jist, being FAKE.

I had a GF in HS named jennifer. truth be told.. I just wanted to fvck the **** out of her. all day and all night. And to be quite honest, she was perfectly fine with this as well. but here I go, becuase we are fvcking now I want to talk about moving in together and I want to spend all my time with you and let's talk about what you want to do when you get older.. damnit I just want to get laid.


but yes, nice guys can get laid. all nice guys aren't internet nerds who dress in emo and bring flowers to a girl in class and write cheesy love letters.

 

[Erik V]

thats not true. Sure, even hardcore AFC's get laid here and there, but they pretty much take what they can get. You need to game to have multiple options, or get the girls you want, instead of the ones who you can get. Game is the difference between banging new chicks on a regular basis, and banging one every couple-few months.

Yes, I agree with this. Most guys will take what they can get, and sure, you can live like that no problem, you will go out with several women that way. But that is not what we are looking for.

I also see a lot of guys who get into a relationship with the first girl who gives them the chance. And they convince themselves that they are happy. They are afraid of going out into the Big Unknown again and so they stay where they are safe. And for decades from then on, they will be looking at women around them and wonder what life could have been like. I don't want to be one of the guys who watch TV and think damn, I wish my girlfriend was as pretty and nice as Rachel Green, but I guess watching Friends will have to do....


And yes. Of COURSE there will be lots of guys who are able to write honestly in this thread that "hey, when I didn't know the first thing about DJing I was still getting lots of hot babes." Good for you, but you are not the norm.

 

[synergy1]

But that's just a Sosuave myth. They are not nice to get something from a girl. It's the way they are and a lot of girls still appreciate it enough to **** their brains out. In the end, Pook was right. There are no rules. I'm afraid that a Don Juan just falls into another category of men that girls like. It doesn't matter if you're shy, confident, desperate or hard to get. It's just about approaching.

If you read any of my other posts, I usually advocate for the same idea that 'rules' are generally not well understood and that there is no gold standard for this kind of thing. This was not what my post was addressing. I was referring to the guys who are only nice to girls ( or anyone for that matter) for something in return. There can be cases made against true alturism, but lets just assume that some dudes get bent out of shape more than others when their good deeds go unnoticed. My post was in reference to the guys who pretend to care about womens problems and bend over backwards at their own expense just to get laid.

There is nothing wrong with a nice person. The people who exude confidence and good nature are the ones who people flock too and even qualify themselves too. The people who bleed insecurity under the guise of being nice are the ones who won't get laid. The guys who consistently complain about women as if they are owed something in return- these people aren't nice, they are greedy.

Said another way,

there is nothing wrong with being NICE. What's wrong when you are being nice to hide your real feelings. So in jist, being FAKE.

 

[f283000]

But that's just a Sosuave myth. They are not nice to get something from a girl. It's the way they are and a lot of girls still appreciate it enough to **** their brains out.

Sure enough do BUT NOT THE MAJORITY!

Let's cut to the chase here. Most members of this forum are either in their 20's to early 30's and are from western countries. In western countries THE MAJORITY of desirable, attractive women are not f**** nice guys, period.

Unfortunately if we want to score with the most attractive women we have to change the way we are to increase our odds.

 

[MindOverMatter]

Seeing some old faces here, I haven't posted in a long time, but this thread caught my eye.

I don't believe in generalizing things, or in extremes for that matter. It's not a matter of being a nice guy or a complete ass.

There's more dimensions to everyone's personality. Forget about thinking there are nice guys and *******s and that it's all black and white.

Are a good guy? Are you a fun guy? Are you a calm guy? Are you an assertive guy? Are you the best person you can be to yourself, and others? Are you creative? Memorable?

I think a lot of people break everything down into rules. Perfect example, someone mentioned flowers on a first date. It's a rule that's almost followed religiously, to the point where guys out there never bother getting flowers even on a 5th date.

One time, years back I was picking up this girl for dinner, and while driving over to her place I saw a house with a really nice garden, so I pulled over and helped myself to a couple of flowers. When I got to her house, and she saw the flowers (and the fact they were not storebought, heh) and asked me where I got them, I told them I saw a nice garden a couple of blocks back and that we need to get going cause I think they saw me. She was laughing and thought I was a complete nutcase, but it ended up being an awesome evening. Believe me, I got more from this girl that night then I would have if I simply showed up to her door empty handed.

Perfect example that there are no set rules, there is no perfect behaviour, because perfect is predictable, boring and eventually a turn-off. You have to be creative and improvise. So rather then asking yourself, "If I do this, will she label me a nice guy and ditch me", ask yourself "What would a fun guy do?".

Later DJs.

-Mind

 

[horaholic]

A nice guy would never steal from someones garden. You're BAD!

Seriously, though you're right. Its all about context. Even bad boys can be thoughtful.

Might be a good lesson, if you give a gift to a woman, tell her you stole it from an old lady or something. Even though she knows you're joking, you still give a bad boy vibe about it. That chick liked the fact that you robbed a garden more than the fact that she got flowers.

 

[WaterTiger]

That chick liked the fact that you robbed a garden more than the fact that she got flowers.

TRUE!

 

[SexxiKing777]

TRUE!

Not true!

 

[horaholic]

Not true!

How do you figure?

 

[2-D]

if you give a gift to a woman, tell her you stole it from an old lady or something. Even though she knows you're joking, you still give a bad boy vibe about it. That chick liked the fact that you robbed a garden more than the fact that she got flowers.

Perfect, I'll definitely do that next time!

"Hey babe, hope you like the flowers, I had to kick the **** out of an old lady to get them, haha yer that's right babe, she was visiting her dead husbands grave. Well, enjoy."