Letting your girlfriend hang out with other men (orbiters) is a stupid thing to do

[Turuwal]

Any man who fails to set boundaries has a scarcity mindset and is too afraid he will lose his sole source of intimacy.

Danger, with all due respect, you are also missing the point. But I believe that I understand your thinking. You are mixing up the ability to set boundaries with the need to set boundaries.

Beta: So afraid to lose his woman that he won't set boundaries.
Monogamist "alpha": Is so afraid that his only woman will cheat that he sets too many boundaries. Thinks that the words he uses actually mean something to a woman.
Polyamorist "alpha": Is so sure of his own power that he only needs to use boundaries sparingly. Knows that words are meaningless and actions are all that counts.

Here are some points from my post on polyamory at http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=215016. I note that the sole commenter on this thread has agreed with me and that there are no dissenters. Therefore I consider my arguments to be solid.


On this alleged scarcity mindset:

You need to have the right mentality ... Imagine two men, each with a woman by his side. One is willing to share his woman with you and one is not. What does that mean? Does willingness to share make the first man beta? ABSOLUTELY NOT! The sort of man who would share his woman is someone who must have so many women in his life that he can take the chance that he might lose this particular one. The man who jealously guards his woman does so because he is afraid that she might fall for another man and leave him. The first man has an abundance mentality. The second man has a scarcity mentality.

On setting boundaries:

Your actions must match your words ... If she is doing something that you don't like, you don't hang around and take it like a little b!tch. Instead, you give her a pleasant smile and move away slightly. If you are uncertain whether she is giving you everything, you walk away with a smile on your face. She will feel the potential of loss more than you could possibly imagine. One time when I thought one of my plates was playing games, I just got up and left her house while she was having a shower. I was inundated with a barrage of calls, texts and emails. Once I was sure that the games had stopped, I went back as though nothing had happened.

See also my posts in your thread at http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=215273 on the power relationship behind boundaries and how to reset boundaries in an already existing relationship. See this post by an awesome PUA at http://www.pua-zone.com/showthread....tions-and-answers-to-questions&highlight=soft for a more detailed explanation of the method I use.


Conclusion

So as you can see, there are two powerful forces at play here. On one hand, you are telling a girl, and the world, that you are so certain that you can find a replacement that you are not going to waste your time worrying about other guys. On the other hand, you are showing her through your actions that you will not accept any crap.

I have seen this work. I have made it work. And the only guy who ever beat me in the field was playing by this exact playbook. This guy was so "beta" that he used to bring crowds of people back to his place from clubs for orgies. His girlfriend used to help him do it. That's the kind of "beta" I want to be.


P.S. Where on earth are you guys digging up these girls who keep going on about wanting to hang out one on one with other guys? I have never heard anything like this in my life. It must be the kind of women you are finding. Good luck trying to set any boundaries with this type of woman and having her actually follow them!

 

[Turuwal]

Turowal, polyamory is actually totally irrelevant to this thread, which is addressing mongamous girlfriends. You should go bump some PlayHerMan threads if you want to talk about why monogamous relationships are archaic and fruitless.

OOPS! My mistake and my apologies. Ignore the bit about abundance/scarcity mindset, or modify it to mean "additional plates" rather than "additional girlfriends". I think the bit on setting boundaries still stands.

Since it is impossible to remember which posters favour which type of relationship, I'd like to propose that posters tell us explicitly what kind of relationship they are in (or talking about) when starting the post. This might make it easier to work out the best strategies for a given relationship type.

Again, my apologies for derailing the thread with irrelevant information.

 

[narcissist]

Any man who fails to set boundaries has a scarcity mindset and is too afraid he will lose his sole source of intimacy.

In my humble opinion, I believe that you are only half right.

There are two types of men that don't set boundaries.

1] Beta (scarcity)

This man (or should i say woman with a d1ck) is in perpetual scarcity. He doesnt set boundaries because he fears losing his only source of good female attention and sex. His fear comes from scarcity. We could say that he occupies the SCARCITY mindset. He is not spinning plates. He does NOT have an arsenal of sexy girls that he could meet up with at his whim. He believes in disney ideologies. He is essentially the epitome of AFC.

So this man has FAR more problems then setting a couple boundaries. First being he needs to take the red pill and go through that journey before he can even come close to getting out of scarcity mindset.

You guys are referring to guys that DONT set boundaries as this (beta scarcity) but you miss the second type of guy who doesnt set boundaries which is:


2] Alpha (Abundance)

This man (or should I say god) has a massive resource of women. He has multiple current plates being spun and currently fvcks 3 women at any given time. This man we would say, is in ABUNDANCE mindstate. He has plenty of options.

This man does not care if one of his plates goes off and chills with another guy/guys because that is A CLEAR SIGN that she is LOW INTEREST. This man actually EMBRACES and ENCOURAGES it. WHY? because he can weed out the low interest b**ches and keep his arsenal of women filled with SUPER high interest women that will satisfy HIS needs.

He chooses not to set boundaries because he can erase and replace with ease. He knows that some women will cheat and that will give him the opportunity to drop them. He doesnt care if one of his plates cheats because he has so many other options. He has no time to set boundaries. He just weeds out the low interest b**ches that require said boundaries.

This is the type of guy I was talking about in my previous posts my good sirs.



Setting boundaries - Alpha is in Scarcity.

Now. A man, in my opinion, who is dating a woman in a monogamous relationship Alpha or beta is in SCARCITY. He may be alpha but he is still putting ALL his eggs in one basket. And an Alpha can STILL enter scarcity mindset, monogamy is a sure fire way to do that. Why because he places his emotional trust in ONE girl. Fvcks only ONE girl. dates only ONE girl. Gets feminine attention from ONE girl. Even an alpha can fall privy to scarcity.

In scarcity, an APLHA thinks that setting boundaries is being a DJ. Being a boss. But really it is an attempt at forcing women to comply with his own scarcity mindset.

That is why an alpha sets boundaries. He is scared that his only source of pvssy will go off and cheat. Well I say, GOOD, if a girls cheats on me, I know to drop her. She's low interest. Not worth my time. Setting a boundaries isnt stopping a girl from cheating if she wants. They are just words going in one ear and out the other.

If a man had 200 women he could call at any time to fvck and they were all hot he wouldnt give a sh1t if one of those women was out chilling with other guys.

Some of you may be able to set boundaries without looking like insecure dudes, dont get me wrong. But those boundaries are POINTLESS if the girl wants to cheat and has already made up her mind to do it. Simple as that.




So yea. If I was a dude in a monogamous relationship and i wasnt setting boundaries then i would be beta. But if i am setting boundaries in a relationship, i may be alpha, but the girl will cheat regardless if she wants to.

At the end of the day the problem lies in putting your self in SCARCITY. Which more often then not derives from MONOGAMOUS relationships.

So get out of scarcity by spinning a sh1t load of plates and you wont give a fvck about boundaries cus your have an abundance of options.

Cool? cool.

 

[adam225]

^^^ Agreed. Well said.

 

[Trump]

This is a value statement at it's core.

Basically you are saying you care more about how society perceives you than you care about being disrespected.

Pretty much. Can't wear a sign saying "I'm single, but you will be happy to know I'm alpha because I refuse to take any crap from women" out to:

- Company dinners
- Christmas parties
- Grocery stores
- Married couples
- etc, etc, etc

It is much more important for me that people know I have a girl on my arm and can attract women and get sex than being alpha and single. If you are single man at a certain age, 10000 things run through people's mind about why you are single. Whether right or wrong, it's the way there are, human nature. They don't care you alpha, they don't care about disrespect, they care about a girl on your arm.

My brand is way more important than what happens behind closed doors.

Think about that for a moment and two questions emerge.

• Do you really think she isn't sharing how she treats you with others?
• Do you really think tolerating disrespect for sex will continue to reward with constant sex?

1 - Good point and I've thought about it, but the counter is women are so enlightened and liberated and scarce these days that I would think others would understand the situation. Relationships are valued so much more than respect now. Look at Obama, you don't think he's scared of that woman? Heck, even Clooney and Pitt must be afraid of their wives. Any masculinity now is frowned upon and police will throw any guy in jail for any unwanted behaviour towards a female. I know girls who have their boyfriends thrown in jail every week for small arguments. I know other girls who have had 1 baby, and they don't lift a finger after. They phone the grandparents and say "Come change your grandson's diaper, I'm going to get my hair done. Grandparents rush over because they are so grateful that she gave birth. But I digress...bottom line is, complete respect and she refuses to take off her clothes, or some disrespect and she is naked?

2 - Whether it does or it doesn't, put down for sex gives more confidence than no put down and no sex. If you are getting it constantly, it starts (sex) to lose its luster and you'll think its no big deal, move on to the next one. But to tell a girl "I haven't had much sex, but I'm alpha," that wouldn't fly because you are dealing with logic here. Girls don't care about what you say or who you feel, they want results.

- "What's your number?" "5, but I've taken some hits."
- "What's your number?" "0, but I don't take no disrespect."

Who would she sleep with?

 

[TheException]

Most of the comments I see here and otherwise on the subject of disrespect and boundaries has it's root in men not having the confidence to know that the woman will come back or that another one is just around the corner.

If men do not have the confidence in their ability to replace the girl, the root source is either in not knowing the value of what they provide, or they simply are not doing something right with women.

I see you have stopped talking to yourself in my last thread....and found some time to embarrass yourself elsewhere.

Danger.....you are INCAPABLE of understanding the mindset that Turuwal, Narcissist, and myself among others have. Even though some of us prefer polygamy or monogamy.....it matters not. There are good boundaries to have and then their are bad ones to have. Placing restrictions on other men because you fear scenarios where "cheating MAY occur" is insecure and pathetic....theres just no other way to say it. If my girlfriend wants to go hang out with other men all the time and suck their c0cks....then fvck her, she gets dumped. Its really that simple. I am neither afraid of her hanging out with other men nor blind to it. But like one of the posters above said......women with HIGH INTEREST wont do it all on their own, no insecurity placed boundaries necessary.

Where as you compare women to "insurance and investment accounts".....I see them as humans and sources of pleasure. Comprende?

 

[narcissist]

Narcissist,

Similar to Turuwal, you are referring to a non-committed relationship. If you go back to my thread on setting boundaries effectively, you will find that these boundaries are for committed relationships. You are speaking of plates which is pre-commitment.

Hmm. I am and I am not. I will explain both sides.


non/pre-committal (non-exclusivity)

This is pretty straight forward. I think we would all agree that setting boundaries in such a relation is absolutely fruitless because there is no relationship. The girl is non exclusive with you and you ARE NOT her boyfriend. I hope no one in this forum is setting boundaries with non-committals.

But yeah that is pretty straight forward. I wasnt talking about this one, because it is too easy to understand and most people here would agree that setting boundaries in non-committal or non-exclusive is stupid.

I was actually arguing for monogamous relationships and why i believe THEY should also not serve to stimulate boundary setting. Furthermore, I was simply stating that being in a monogamous relationship acts as a catalyst for scarcity, therefore in my opinion it would be in anyones best interest to spin plates rather, thus eradicating scarcity and empolying abundance.


Monogamous relationships and setting boundaries:

I believe that it is STILL a fruitless endeavour that reeks of insecurity and can ACTUALLY be risky by affecting a girls interest level and affecting the health of the relationship

1] fruitless endeavour (monogamous relationship)

Because a woman will cheat if she has already made up her mind to cheat in a relationship. Authoritative words WILL NOT stop a woman when her pvssy is tingling as another man mounts her NOR will boundaries stop a woman from cheating on her monogamous man if her INTEREST is slipping away at a rapid pace.

ON the other hand. If the women's interest level is SKY HIGH then she doesn't even need to hear your boundaries. She is so interested she will do whatever it takes to keep the man in her life. Including the conscious effort to stay away from infidelity and other men.

If a man has to guide his women away from situations where she will cheat on him by setting boundaries then she obviously isn't that into him. And if that is the case then you have other problems to worry about other then setting fruitless boundaries, such as dropping this low level bish.


2] Reeks of insecurity (monogamous relationship)

When a man sets boundaries he is letting the woman know that he is unsure of her interest level. This subconsciously lets his partner know that he wants to verbally make sure that she will stay faithful and stick around. This shows neediness. He needs self assurance that he is confident enough to keep his chick around. It shows that he is scared she WILL CHEAT when given the opportunity. When you have to literally talk about it, it shows you are unsure of your own self. A HUGE mistake in keeping a chick around.

This is the wrong approach. A DJ should encourage those scenarios - monogamy or not - to test the waters of interest. She cheats? low interest. She doesnt? high interest.

Beyond that "SETTING THE FRAME" is best with unwritten communication. How the DJ moves about and handle situations, how confident he is, how his past relationships went, subconsciously letting the woman know he can get chicks left, right and centre. This will teach the chick not to cheat. Also it keeps the man in a confident position which will keep the chicks interest HIGH.


3] Risky business (monogamous relationship)

Setting boundaries in a monogamous relationship can actually be very risky. You may confidently tell a woman that she is to not hang out with other men, and she may be receptive. But then she will talk to her other chickidees about it and they may bash those very boundaries putting your frame at an injured level.

Beyond that, what if given the scenario where the chick you've been dating wants to go out but her forbidden guys friends are present. She either does two things:

1) She goes against your word. Has a sh1t load of fun. And now you are the fascist dictator that forbids the fun that she could be having. Beyond that, she has gone against your word and feels liberated. She will now slowly but surely break more rules. This is the first path showing how boundaries can turn your chick low interest.

2) She doesn't go, but rather comes and chills with you taking away from her enjoyment of life. The dictator of anti-fun. You have now become a source of fun-sucking forever picking away at her life enjoyment. Never a good frame to have. When she does break away from that she will realize how much enjoyment she has been missing out on. She'll be gone before you can even say the word "boundary". lol

By setting boundaries you are putting yourself in the position to be looked at in a negative way. The Dictator of anti-fun. You are taking a high interest chick and putting her through the cogs of boundary setting and she comes out eventually as a low interest chick who wants to cheat or dump you.

High interest + boundaries .... over time = low interest






I know I'm ranting. But at the end of the day it all comes down to interest.


High interest

Doesn't need boundaries. She is high enough interest that she will try to keep you around with whatever means necessary. Setting boundaries will lower her interest with showing her that your frame is "im unsure of myself" and putting her in situations where she can view you negatively, as stated above.


Low interest

This girls will cheat no matter what. Boundaries, or not. It doesn't matter. You don't want these girls in your arsenal anyways. If you are in a monogamous relationship with one, drop her. It's an uphill batter and you are going to make mistakes trying to increase her interest.

 

[narcissist]

Naive, blue pill pedeistalization. Interest is always in flux, it is not constant throughout the life course of a relationship. Interest is NOT static, it fluctuates. This is why Game never sleeps, nor does Screening. Men and women WILL be attracted to others and WILL push boundaries to the extent they think they can get away with it, even in the context of a healthy relationship. Maybe this doesn't happen to you because you have oneitis. I have high interest in my girlfriend, but if I was drunk in a club with a HB10 riding me and my cell phone off, would I cheat? This is why boundaries are important. Plus, most women do not know that hanging out with and extracting narcissistic supply from guy friends is disrespectful because beta's like you wouldn't dare tell them. Not only are you clueless about relationships but you are clueless about screening: the BEST screening method for AWs is setting a guy-friends boundary.

So your saying, it is clear that one must set boundaries because the girl one is with may or may not cheat because interest is always in flux. Well to me that sounds like a sh1tty deal. This is why monogamy isn't a very good system seeing as setting fascist authoritative boundaries are a pre-cursor to a "healthy" relationship.

Better, in my opinion, to be in a constant flux of spinning plates, erasing and replacing hoes that will or will not "cheat". Sticking with one women whom may or may not cheat and placing all of your emotional investment in her does not seem very economical to me personally. But to each his own i guess.

ps. not trying to bash you pairplusroyalflush, so don't take it personally boss.

 

[zekko]

I wasn't going to get in on this thread because this topic has been done to death, but let me address this:

A man, in my opinion, who is dating a woman in a monogamous relationship Alpha or beta is in SCARCITY. He may be alpha but he is still putting ALL his eggs in one basket

Narcissist, you have the right attitude for your age, because at 21, you probably shouldn't be in a monogamous relationship, and should be out there experiencing women. But there may come a time, when you get into your 30s or so, when you might meet someone you would like to settle down with who meets your needs, and when you might tire of being out chasing tail all the time.

Anyway, while I don't label myself an alpha or a beta, I am in a monogamous relationship, and I definitely do not feel like I am in scarcity. And the reason I say this is because I know I can replace my girlfriend if I should lose her. I know this because I have been in several monogamous relationships over the years, and I have always, always been able to replace the chick. And let's face it, the process of going out and finding a new, exciting girl can be kind of fun.

You make your error when you say that an alpha will place ALL his emotional investment in one girl. I say this is something you should never do. While I trust my girlfriend, she is still a human being, and thus there is always the possibility that things will change. Therefore, I will never fully place ALL my emotional investment in her, I always keep a part of my mind open to the possibility that things can and will change, and at some point I may have to replace her. I know I can do it because I've done it before.

You are not controlling women in your life so much as you are controlling FOR the wrong women in your life.

Danger and I pretty much agree in lock step on this subject, so whatever he says goes double for me.

Bottom line, I have no interest in having a grilfriend (or wife) who spends her time going out to drinks or dinners with some other dude. A girl who insists on this sort of behavior is not fit to call herself my girlfriend. If her male friends are that important to her, I'm not interested in her. I would no more choose a woman who insists on going out with other men than I would choose a woman who insisted on raiding my bank account, or insisted on driving my car recklessly.

Now if some of you all want your girls to go out with other guys, have at it. It doesn't matter to me. But that's not the kind of relationship I am willing to have. To each his own.

For me it goes like this: If a girl is going to be hanging out with other guys, I am going to hang out with other women. Now, I don't really have any use for a bunch of platonic female friends, so if I hang out with other women, I am going to be fvcking them. But that defeats the purpose of a monogamous relationship, doesn't it?

 

[TheException]

However since you have this mindset I have quoted in red below, it is clear that you do not have the backbone to implement such filtering techniques.

If it bothers you....go ahead and set that as a "boundary". But you may end up close to 40......and still looking for a wife.

Thats not my mindset actually nor was that the point of that comment pal.

Its a "jab" thrown at a certain sosuave member who is approaching 40 years old if not already there......has over 5.5k posts......thinks hes "intellectual" because of his age......and IS STILL looking for a high quality wife.

You have absolutely zero legs to stand on when it comes to monogamous relationships. You deserve to tell us why anyone should listen to you on this subject......I dont think anyone here thinks being in your position is ideal.

 

[Turuwal]

This is turning ridiculous. There is only one reliable predictor of interest whether in a mono, poly, boundaries, no boundaries, long term, short term, long distance, short distance or whatever relationship.

What she will do in bed.

That's it. If she has sex whenever you want, wherever you want, however you want, and indulges whatever fantasy that you happen to have no matter what, then who cares what else she is doing.

There are a few more reasons that I don't care what a girl is doing (the last two could even apply to a monogamous relationship):

• I don't plan to be a father of any kids that I know about
• If I do end up as a father I want someone else to raise the kid
• If I do end up raising the kid I can be absolutely assured of paternity through cheap DNA testing
• If I end up paying child support for my own kid(s) there is a hard limit to how much I can be forced to pay in my country regardless of the number of kids, and this amount will not have a major impact on my lifestyle

Of course my goals are probably completely at odds with the majority view here on this forum. People like me and narcissist and TheException are probably genetically wired to be different to most people. Each person must play the hand of cards they are dealt. This is why, even though I can't ever imagine settling for just one woman, I also don't want to force my views on polyamory down people's throats either.

 

[dasein]

I'm on the rascal side of this one, used to be on the narcissist side, both sides have merit. IMO, the rascal side more accurately understands the female mind and the narcissist side tries to view the female mind through male mind-colored glasses.

What do I mean? OK, let's say you don't hang out with your buddy one night, in fact you had no plans to hang out with him. There is 0% chance of resentment of any emotional resonance between you two because... male mind, because.. logic, because... spatially consistent thinking according to an objective ruleset.

OTOH, let's say you don't hang out with your GF one night, in fact you had no plans to hang out with her. There is still an indeterminate, but surprisingly high chance of resentment because...female mind, because...feelings in the moment, because...spatially retarded thinking according to a subjective ruleset consisting of one rule, "what I want to do right this instant and what I expect right this instant." That's the rule of the female mind. You can piss that mind off merely by not being around, or being around for that matter, based on the subjectivity of the ruleset and no need for consistency. It doesn't have to make sense. I didn't truly learn this til I was 40.

Allowing your GF to hang out with orbiter dudes holds a match over a pile of female mind oily rags. "If she is going to cheat, she will do so anway," well yeah, IF SHE WAS A MAN!! She's not a man. She is capable of getting caught up in the moment and rationalizing your mere absence into "he doesn't care what I do, why isn't he here now?" This is not a function of mere interest level, but of several factors.

I remember a girl I'd been trying to f forever who always had a live-in BF. One night, we got to go out. She said to me, "He doesn't care what I do," and within 20 minutes we were in the hotel f-ing. Later I got to know the guy in question, and he most certainly did care what she did, he was just trying to be cool. Had that guy, or any of us, put the clamps on, that's just one more hamster she has to roll to get to "it's ok to follow my subjective ruleset." Will it keep her from getting there? Maybe it will if she knows what she is doing is not and was not ok with you to begin with.

So do you tempt an illogical, inconsistent mind that follows that one subjective rule? I don't. I have a well-behaved dog, but that doesn't mean I put a $30 steak on the ground in front of him. I trust my neighbor, but that doesn't mean I leave my wallet on his doorstep overnight. When there is a possibility that she will formulate rationalizing resentment against you for any imaginary slight, don't tempt fate.

If you happen to be dating a Ph.d in statistics who plays chess and poker for fun, loves the stock market? Sure, you can probably let her hang out with whomever she wants, and the narcissist rule applies to her more male-like mind. If she's a -real- woman though, not some fantasy I just made up for sh-ts and giggles, go with the rascal plan.

 

[zekko]

Setting boundaries in a monogamous relationship can actually be very risky. You may confidently tell a woman that she is to not hang out with other men, and she may be receptive. But then she will talk to her other chickidees about it and they may bash those very boundaries putting your frame at an injured level.

This is not the way I look at it. If I have a strong frame, it's my frame, and it is unshakeable. She cannot damage my frame. She might change her mind about things, but that's on her, not me. My frame remains the same, whether she agrees with me, fvcks off, packs up and leaves or whatever.

Allowing your GF to hang out with orbiter dudes holds a match over a pile of female mind oily rags. "If she is going to cheat, she will do so anway," well yeah, IF SHE WAS A MAN!! She's not a man. She is capable of getting caught up in the moment and rationalizing your mere absence into "he doesn't care what I do, why isn't he here now?" This is not a function of mere interest level, but of several factors.

That's true enough, but I'm not even worried about her cheating. Obviously, if she cheats, she's out the door. But I find the very act of her hanging out one on one with other men unacceptable. It's not about cheating to me at all. If she goes out to dinner with some other dude that's essentially a "date" in my book. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I find that improper, inappropriate, and disrespectful.

There are even some women who will agree with you on this point from the get go. My wife was such a woman, she thought it was improper to hang out with "friends" of the opposite sex because in her words, it "causes problems".

 

[SeymourCake]

There's a bit of a confusion when it comes to "control" - a masculine trait.

The only thing YOU have control of is YOURSELF and the situations you're in. You have control over your emotions, your mental state of being, your physicality, your finances, your self worth, etc...You by any means DO NOT have control over other people, especially your girl. If she wants to hang out with beta orbiters, so be it. It should not phase you.

If you love a flower, then let it be and do not pick it up. Because if you pick it, it ceases to be what you loved and dies. Love is not about possession, it's about being appreciative.

 

[narcissist]

I believe that there are a couple misunderstandings on where I stand on this subject.


The point that I have been trying to make during this entire thread has been about WHY boundaries are rather pointless MOST OF THE TIME. Not always. Obviously there are exceptions, right? Im not going to deny that. I will now explain as thoroughly as I can why they are ineffective, or rather not necessary.


The Unpredictability of Women

I say boundaries are POINTLESS because WOMEN are UNPREDICTABLE. Even if you set the STRONGEST frame, even if you approach setting the boundary PERFECTLY - as Danger has so thoroughly pointed out how to do - Even if your gf knows that you will drop her in a second if she leaves. THAT does not change a bloody thing. Why? Because she doesnt look at things logically. She follows her unpredictable, irrational emotions. Set the strongest frame and set endless boundaries perfectly implemented from the beginning before exclusivity. Doesn't matter. A bish will drop the thought of your boundaries INSTANTLY if she feels her interest is dropping. Even if you set the best boundaries, if a women is in the presence of another dude that is making her vag tingle she will cheat.


INTEREST MANAGING

Boundaries DO NOT trump INTEREST. This is why boundaries are pointless. Worry about keeping her interest levels HIGH. And boundaries don't even have to be implemented. If a girl is in a monogamous relationship with BRAD PITT, no beta orbiter is going to make her cheat, because she has SUPER HIGH INTEREST. Brad pitt doesnt have to set sh1t! Setting boundaries does not take away from the fact that interest managing is the MOST important factor to keeping a bish loyal.

But this is in a monogamous relationship. Which in my humble opinion is a waste of time. Women are far too unpredictable in terms of emotions. As you guys have demonstrated over and over again. You say you set boundaries because if they are with a beta orbiter they can fall privy to their vag tingles and cheat. UNPREDICTABLE. Or if they are in a long term relationship and a man DOESNT set boundaries they take that as "he doesn't care what I do" aka "ill cheat on him"... UNPREDICTABLE again.

You guys point out the unpredictablity of women quite effectively with quotes like this:

Allowing your GF to hang out with orbiter dudes holds a match over a pile of female mind oily rags. "If she is going to cheat, she will do so anway," well yeah, IF SHE WAS A MAN!! She's not a man. She is capable of getting caught up in the moment and rationalizing your mere absence into "he doesn't care what I do, why isn't he here now?" This is not a function of mere interest level, but of several factors.

Monogamy is Gambling with your Emotions


Bringing me back to my MAIN point. Cheating will happen. It is inevitable. But its a roll of the dice whether your girl will or will not cheat. And you have no idea if she will or not. THAT IS NOT ECONOMICAL. I dont feel it would be prudent to GAMBLE my emotions. If I choose to place all of my emotions in a girl I have to be 100% sure she will not take my heart and fvcking tear it up. Some of you may say, dont give her all your emotions. Well then what the heck is the point of being in a monogamous relationship then?

If you find a girl and decide to make her exclusively yours then you are rolling the dice placing your emotions as the bet. She may or may not cheat, you have NO IDEA. Boundaries or none. Theres still the chance. and THAT is why i say spin plates instead. Don't fvck with your emotions. The more heartbroken you get the more taken away from achieving your goals, dreams, and aspirations. Not worth it in my opinion. Why place all your emotions in a woman that may or may not break your heart? That is placing A LOT of trust in an unpredictable chick.

Spinning plates is emotionally ECONOMICAL


When you spin plates you do not need to set boundaries. You have a large abundance of women which you place scarce amount of emotional investment in, if any at all. If one leaves you are not heartbroken or emotionally distraught for months. You simply erase and replace. You have time to focus on your goals and aspirations without the thought that maybe your emotional investment may CRASH. Its basic economics. You do not want to place all your money on one stock. Rather invest them into a diverse portfolio with many different stocks. Same with women. Dont place all your emotions on one chick. Especially because her actions are unpredictable as we have pointed out. Rather place your emotions over a wide range of different girls, so if one brick falls out of the wall it wont crumble.

So that is my main point. Boundaries are pointless because women are unpredictable and monogamy is a huge emotional investment which boundaries cannot protect from crashing if interest is low. Rather interest managing would be the best insurance.






Conclusion to all of my points in this entire thread.

1] Boundaries are useless because women are unpredictable and setting boundaries or not, you have NO idea if they will cheat or not. If they want to they will, no matter how effective you are at setting boundaries (pre-commital, in a subtle, non authoritative way). Doesnt matter. Its all about interest.

2] WAY more important than setting boundaries in monogamous relationships is INTEREST MANAGING. Keep her interest high and THAT alone will be the most SECURING factor in keeping her loyal and away from infidelity. If you fail manage her interest but SUCCED in boundary setting. It wont matter. She will follow her interest.

3] The spectacularly unpredictable nature of women (you never know 100% if they will or will not cheat) leaves me to wonder why ANY one would place all their emotional investment into a monogamous relationship, considering the gamble is your fvcking emotional well-being. Leaving one in SCARCITY and open to a possible emotional vortex of anguish. Far less economical.

4] Stick to spinning multiple plates where setting boundaries is UNNECESSARY. Boundaries are fruitless in plate spinning because we live on a fundamental erase and replace doctrine. Low interest? Drop. You place barely any emotional investment in these women and you have MORE to choose from. Leaving you in a state of abundance, where neediness, insecurity, and fear of abandonment are NON-EXISTENT. Far more economical.

5] Meditate. Not relevant to anything here but i wanna throw it in. We should all be doing this.



You all have amazing points by the way.

And I want to make clear that I DONT NOT CLAIM TO BE RIGHT.

I am merely stating my opinion based on my own experiences. Take it or leave it. It is not 100% true, for I claim to know nothing in this universe. As i am merely a semi-intelligent ape on a ball floating in space, wondering what the fvck is going on.

True? true.

Oh an my bad about the long post. I had to say everything here to get my point across. Another thing I am only 21 so my opinions on this are likely to change with time and experience, as zekko has pointed out.

 

[zekko]

The only thing YOU have control of is YOURSELF and the situations you're in. You have control over your emotions, your mental state of being, your physicality, your finances, your self worth, etc.

Yes, exactly. And you have the control of picking a woman who will not disregard your boundaries. To me, if my girl is going out with another man, that IS cheating. They say emotional cheating is worse than the physical, after all.

You can set boundaries that she not strike you physically, right? You can set boundaries that she doesn't take your stuff and throw it out in the yard. You can set boundaries that she doesn't steal your banking information and empty out your account. You can set boundaries that she doesn't nag you day and night. But as soon as you suggest she shouldn't go out with another man, suddenly that's being controlling. Believe me, the feminists love this way of thinking.

You by any means DO NOT have control over other people, especially your girl. If she wants to hang out with beta orbiters, so be it. It should not phase you.

Just out of curiousity, Seymour, what will you be doing while she's hanging out with these orbiters? Are you going to be hanging out with female friends? Are you going to be spinning other plates? Because if you're spinning plates, that isn't an exclusive relationship.

I say boundaries are POINTLESS because WOMEN are UNPREDICTABLE.

Hmm, I would say that most PUA theory is based on the idea that women actually are predictable. Maybe what you mean to say is that women are fickle, which is true.

I actually believe that relationships have a shelf life. You make a good point when you talk about maintaining high interest. And really, if you screen for the right woman, and she has been properly seduced by you, you can probably count on getting x years of good behavior out of her, because she will have high interest. Part of that high interest is that she will want to fulfill the criteria that you have for a girlfriend. At some point though, the bloom is probably going to be off the rose.

See, I can enjoy a monogamous relationship, but I don't think those relationships necessarily last forever. If after x years, the relationship runs its course and comes to a close, so be it. One thing about PUAs when they talk about never letting your feelings be on the line and all, that's always struck me as a little cowardly. Oh, boo hoo, I must never have my feelings hurt. Meh, I've been through breakups, and yeah it's painful, but I'm still here, it hasn't killed me. You know what they say, nothing ventured, nothing gained. No pain, no gain. If you never risk anything, are you really living? Just because a relationship doesn't last forever doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile.

Narcissist, you seem to be mainly arguing against monogamy. And that's fine, as I said before, as a 21 year old that's a good attitude to have. But since you're so anti-monogamy, why the interest in this topic, which is about exclusive relationships?

 

[Atom Smasher]

OK, I've been skimming this interesting thread, and I'm going to say what I've said here a hundred times before:

It is critically important that a man sets boundaries, because a woman innately knows that she needs them. Women actually crave a man who sets boundaries. They are hard-wired to look for guidance from men, and that hard-wiring trumps social conditioning.

In other threads I've mentioned that I've had several girlfriends snuggle up to me out of the blue and say, "Atom, I love how you set boundaries for us."

"Boundaries" is women's code word for "rules", a word they will not utter.

The first two times I head that I was shocked but played it cool. When I heard it later from other women I considered it a natural thing because I realized that women want and need this.

She may put up a token fuss, but you must establish boundaries early in the game or reap the punishment later. Women highly respect a man who sets boundaries.

Take it to the bank.

 

[TheException]

LOL wow Exception. You really don't know anything about me.

Let me fill you in....

I have a gf.
As Mauser noted, I don't want to get married.
She tried to convince me several times, and finally submitted to my frame that I wasn't going to get married.
We bought a house together and she is happy as can be.
She is hot.
She is a doctor.
She happily obliges by all of my boundaries.

You forgot "fragile ego" on the list.....one little jab and you start qualifying harder than an hb4.5 at a party full of single millionaire men.....your supposed to agree and amplify my man.

What is even more hilarious is that your whole post is nothing but an attack on ME in a desperate attempt to avoid my points.

Your right. When you act like a moron you get treated like one. Ive had "decently intelligent" discussions with you before but lately you are incapable of having them. You dont understand our mindset so you dismiss it as "scarcity mentality". I have zero interest in talking circles with you. Your beginning to go PHM on us Danger....

Quite simply, my life and situation is complete proof that boundaries work perfectly fine.

Good for you.....took you long enough no? If youve made mistakes and have learned from them, those would be threads worth writing.

Also whats the point of dating monogamously if you dont plan on getting married and having kids? Youd be better off spinning plates then. Perhaps stick to those topics.

 

[narcissist]

Let me ask you this. If a woman you were committed to and who you did not set boundaries with suddenly started going out often with other men one-on-one. What would you do?

Well, I would never be in that situation because I dont do monogamous relationships.

But if i did and was found in such a situation:

I would drop.

Or,

Keep around for sex while detaching myself emotionally and spin other plates.

The end is nigh if they start chilling with guys one-on-one. No point in trying to salvage the lost relationship.

Please take this point in: Boundaries or none, if a girl starts chilling one-on-one with a guy its a sign of low interest. I understand that you set boundaries as a good indicator of when they turn low interest - but there are good indicators with out the implementation of boundaries.




At the end of the day. I have changed my mind on this matter.

You can either set them or dont. They are not pointless but they aren't necessary.

They arent pointless

Because they are good indicators when a chick loses interest. When she starts going against your boundaries you can gauge that as a massive lose of interest and cut her from your life. I can see that. That makes sense. Also Atom Smasher has pointed out that some chicks actually like boundaries and it keeps their interest high. Well anything that keeps interest high is a good thing. But I believe not all girls would find this attractive.

They arent necessary

Because there are a great many other ways to gauge interest. If one doesn't know how to set boundaries they can in fact set themselves up to look insecure, and needy. Last but not least, boundaries arent necessary to a fundamentally good relationship because interest managing trumps it. If you can manage a girls interest and keep it high, you wont have to set boundaries.


Taking the non-absolutist view

I am now going to take the relativist view on the matter and amalgamate both sides of the argument. I choose not to be close minded. I realize both sides have very good points and I must consider each prospect.

I believe boundaries in certain situations and circumstances can be a good tool. I am beginning to realize this now. But in certain situations it can also be a hinderance.

Setting boundaries as atom smasher has pointed out can actually be used in such a way to maximize interest. Women like being submissive. It is in their biological nature (although this is debatable). Therefore setting boundaries actually increases a womans IL. Therefore, it can be used as a great tactic for INTEREST MANAGING.

But still. Interest managing is more important. Set all the boundaries you want, but if you have failed to manage your girls interest and keep it high it wont matter. She will be gone before you can even say the word "boundary"


There is no definite answer to the matter. I guess it is a point of perspective really. Preference. If you like to set boundaries do it properly. Because otherwise your are setting yourself up to be thwarted emotionally.

If you choose not to set boundaries then be sure as hell to make sure that bishes interest is sky high.


There really is NO right or wrong side. We all have good points and we should all consider that in different scenarios with different circumstances either boundary or no-boundary would make the best choice.

To say ALL situations and circumstances can fit into one of these is not being very prudent. Different people entail different tactics and approaches.

One girl might take your boundary setting as the most insecure, needy thing ever and be completely turned off by it.

Whereas another might be a very submissive broad and actually psychologically ache for your boundary setting.

It depends.

Anyways great debate guys. You have definitely opened up my mind to a lot of things! I would love to have another debate sometime! haha. Great way to learn things and become smarter in the process.

 

[Peaks&Valleys]

OK, I've been skimming this interesting thread, and I'm going to say what I've said here a hundred times before:

It is critically important that a man sets boundaries, because a woman innately knows that she needs them. Women actually crave a man who sets boundaries. They are hard-wired to look for guidance from men, and that hard-wiring trumps social conditioning.

In other threads I've mentioned that I've had several girlfriends snuggle up to me out of the blue and say, "Atom, I love how you set boundaries for us."

"Boundaries" is women's code word for "rules", a word they will not utter.

The first two times I head that I was shocked but played it cool. When I heard it later from other women I considered it a natural thing because I realized that women want and need this.

She may put up a token fuss, but you must establish boundaries early in the game or reap the punishment later. Women highly respect a man who sets boundaries.

Take it to the bank.

Yes, I agree here. Women like you to set boundaries for them. Kind of like when you tell them you want to go exclusive with them. Or you tell them they're the only one for you.

They definitely like that kind of stuff.

I know the boundary thing is different. And it does have a certain dominant/submissive ring to it. However, for the long term, by setting these boundaries, I feel you're actually setting yourself up to be cheated on.

Here is why:

Simply, it's now the forbidden fruit. It's the same reason Amish send there kidos out into the real world when they reach a certain age, and it's the same reason why they come back, on their own accord.

Setting boundaries will work, for the short term, the honeymoon phase, as you will. But eventually, once you two start getting comfortable with each other, here's a scenario that's going to happen: She's going to be out with one her girlfriends eating lunch and her friend's brother is going to stop by to say hi.

What is she supposed to do?

Your gf has now been put into a difficult situation. Can she hang out with her friend and her friend's brother? Or is that not allowed? What do you think her girlfriend is going to say?

What about when everyone from her office is getting a drink to celebrate something?

What's she supposed to say there? "Since there are guys there, my boyfriend won't allow me." Or, does she make up a lie so you don't sound like an insecure controlling a$$hole.

What's the next phase? Resentment.

Then the next? Fvck him. And the lying begins.

Then the next? Forbidden fruit time.

Setting boundaries is building a relationship up on rules and guidelines. These rules are forcing her not to cheat but it's also forcing her to not do a lot of other things that aren't cheating. And this force can only last so long. Like a weak dam, once it springs a leak, you know the flood is eventually coming.

The best relationships are the ones built on trust. The only rule or boundary or guidelines that should be set is trust, and if someone breaks that trust, then they cannot be trusted again, and therefore the relationship will end.