Is America heading toward the trash heap of history?

[user43770]

What fascinates me about America, is the same country responsible for so much of the world's great minds, inventors etc, could also elect a B grade actor (Reagan) and a draft dodging thick goose (George Dubbya) as Presidents.

As I say - fascinating.

How about their electing a B grade politician who promises "change." I do say - fascinating.

 

[n00bPimp]

Ron Paul tells things like it is. America WILL collapse if the debt ceiling is increasing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEP8cQF-QC4&feature=player_embedded

 

[Alle_Gory]

Our manufacturing is nothing compared to what it used to be, relative to the rest of the world and relative to our service-sector dominated economy. I dont understand how we can keep adding so many service sector jobs and try to keep it going like it is sustainable.

The service sector is coming about since people aren't manufacturing. Factories are becoming more efficient and require less workers and will continue to do so. Factory work is also being shipped overseas as companies chase a quick buck at the expense of a soul. China is great because they have few environmental regulations and companies are free to pollute until the air turns grey.

Unfortunatelly by getting rid of all these excess workers, you're also depriving them of an income. No income, no spending. So they borrow from the bank to fuel their habits. However they can't pay the money back since they have no income. That spending they just did on the bank's behalf fueled the economy along, but now they're bankrupt. The bank is out of money so they ask the government for a bailout. The government prints money or borrows from China racking up debt. The government is also low on money, so I don't know how the Chinese expect to be paid back. They can accept American land for cheap (which is already happening as newly wealthy Chinese citizens are buying land like crazy worldwide). China can declare war and extract resources and land by force or simply realize they have a bad debt that America cannot pay back.

 

[Mike32ct]

Or to be able to compete. Lower cost of labor means a much lower production cost. Eventually it will even out, but for now the pendulum has swung very far.

Once one "sellout" company decides to outsource, their competitors often have to follow suit in order to stay in business.

 

[Quiksilver]

But even so, there is nothing wrong with cutting your costs and becoming more profitable.

We as people do it, why not Corporations? When the cost to produce drops, the cost buy also drops. When the cost to buy drops, we can purchase or invest more.

This is true within a nations borders.

With globalization of labour, a firm can hire slaves in southeast Asia and a competing firm hiring free citizens in USA will be forced to compete and ultimately lose, or it too must hire slaves.

Therefore, the American worker must compete against a slave, and--regarding standard of living, the two will meet the new market equilibrium in the middle.

With globalization of production that allows firms to source labour/production in nations with poor political situations and horrendous standards of living, the result is:

American/Western laborers wages and standard of living will fall and the standard of living in slave states will not rise due to regulatory and governmental corruption. So the natural equilibrium where a worker in Cambodia makes the same as a worker in Illinois will not be met as arrangements between MNCs and host nations prevent wage rises and regulation of environment.

As such, the standard of living and wages of American workers must fall to the artificially suppressed standard of living and wages in slave states.

You can thank Free Trade and a lack of resistance to trading with slave nations and those with terrible governments and standards of living, for the above.

Did I mention, that product quality mysteriously drops even when a multinational firm doesn't have to pay workers as much? Ingenious, to increase profit by cutting labor cost AND product quality.

I have nothing against profit, but it is sad to see production quality, craftsmanship and pride of creation being scrapped in favor of a higher share price.

 

[Alle_Gory]

But even so, there is nothing wrong with cutting your costs and becoming more profitable.

There is when your products become inferior. My folks recently bought a Kenmore oven, guess where it was made? China of course. This thing is a piece of **** and nowhere near as durable as the previous Kenmore oven they threw out last year. That thing ran for 10 years without problems.

Guess what brand I won't be buying when I get my own house? They can go **** themselves and their profits.

We as people do it, why not Corporations? When the cost to produce drops, the cost buy also drops. When the cost to buy drops, we can purchase or invest more.

Not everyone pimps themselves out for a quick buck. Some people have it in them to retain their dignity and their sanity and work for less money but in a better environment closer to home.

 

[Bible_Belt]

Quicksilver has a good point about the death of quality. Wal-Mart didn't become the biggest retailer by selling the best stuff.

 

[Mike32ct]

But even so, there is nothing wrong with cutting your costs and becoming more profitable.

We as people do it, why not Corporations? When the cost to produce drops, the cost buy also drops. When the cost to buy drops, we can purchase or invest more.

In the short term, we can buy more when it's cheaper. But in the long term, the American consumer won't be able to buy due to job losses and/or declining wages.

 

[Mike32ct]

Declining wages and declining prices are ok if the currency is sound. But the US dollar is in trouble. Combine declining wages, job losses, and a weakening currency (inflation) and as I said, the American shoppers' days are numbered. The day will come when even Walmart will be hurting for business in the US.

 

[Mike32ct]

Very true.

These are not the result of Corporations though. This is the result of a usury monetary system based on fiat.

Agreed.

 

[Vice]

I've only skimmed this thread, but I've noticed how much dependence the average american has on major corporations.

They b*tch and moan about there not being any jobs, what's stopping them from creating their own damn jobs? If they got off their asses and started being creative and more risk-adverse, and build a "f*ck big corporations" attitude, the big corporations can be brought to their knees when people stop accepting their product even though it's cheaper.

This is why I drive 55 MPH on the highway and have "F*CK BIG OIL DRIVE 55" on the back of my car. I drive like a grandma now, but I have no reason to be mashing the gas pedal around like some teenager that just learned how to drive. It never fails to amaze me that some guys think they're impressing someone by pressing a gas pedal to go fast. That's not skill or talent, you can literally train just about any animal to press a gas pedal.

F*ck big oil.

 

[Falcon]

why should these corporations hire americans when we have bogus laws in our country that make the cost of hiring americans much more expensive? benefits, disability, minimum wage, specific industry regulations, etc. So many things these corporations have to cover and the avg american is probably stupider too. i would do the exact same thing if i was running these big corporations. the more the US fights the free market the more likely it will pull the rug from under this entitlement economy. sometimes if you want to be competitive you have to sacrifice and under-consume, something i believe us americans feel that we are too good for. when we were on a consumption binge the rest of the world was doing that and we probably didnt care. now that the tables are starting to turn you can see the unrest. i wonder if it's even possible to get on the right track now with the current dismal debt projections.

 

[gaspipe]

And now today we got a report by CNN that one in five or 20% of the male population is not working or unemployed.

I always believed that the information provided by the labor department on the unemployment numbers were skewed for political reasons and were way understated for obvious reasons.

A very smart friend of mine who works for the government in Washington has told me that he believes and the government doesnt want to admit that the true unemployment rate is more like 17% not the 9.1% that was announced a couple of weeks ago.

 

[Falcon]

And now today we got a report by CNN that one in five or 20% of the male population is not working or unemployed.

I always believed that the information provided by the labor department on the unemployment numbers were skewed for political reasons and were way understated for obvious reasons.

A very smart friend of mine who works for the government in Washington has told me that he believes and the government doesnt want to admit that the true unemployment rate is more like 17% not the 9.1% that was announced a couple of weeks ago.

I agree, and I definitely believe that is the same case with the inflation statistics. There is just no way that inflation is that low. Either it is much higher or they need to reevaluate the way they are calculating it because it is just completely out of touch with the average consumer. A lot of people are claiming that inflation is actually around 10%. When it comes to unemployment, I have heard some people claim that they believe it can be as high as 20%

 

[Quiksilver]

This discussion is convoluted and has so many facets...

- Free trade vs. Import tariffs

- Good nations vs. bad nations

- Regulation vs. Laissez-faire

- People who like buying 3 cheap products over 1 good product (Consumerism)

- etc.

--

I am in favor of free market capitalism, however reality suggests that free market capitalism combined with free trade with slave states is not beneficial to anybody except the corporate shareholders. This would explain the--perhaps misguided--move towards Socialism in public opinion. I believe the real solution is to stop the problem at the borders, with steep import tarrifs with slave states and preventing multi-national corporations from selling products in America/EU/Canada/Aus which were made by people with a terrible standard of living.

That saves the benefits of free market capitalism within a nations borders and prevents the problems of free market capitalism, which is its affinity for hiring people with low(er) standards of living thus lowering the standard of living of everybody.

I think the question is, due to the complexity of the issue, Can it be reversed with the current system or must we have a massive and prolonged collapse in order to rebuild properly?

 

[Bible_Belt]

I think the question is, due to the complexity of the issue, Can it be reversed with the current system or must we have a massive and prolonged collapse in order to rebuild properly?

I think we're hooked on low prices. In the 1970's, before globalism, what little technology existed was stupidly expensive. A simple, corded multi-line office telephone was about $400.

Coincidentally, that's about what a new Iphone costs today, and they are built under worker conditions that, while not the worst in the world, are still bad enough that they had to install anti-suicide nets around the dormitories : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides

But what if we made Apple built the Iphone in the US? We'd create jobs, manufacturing, exports, lower the trade deficit, increase tax revenue...all of those things would be great, except the cost of one phone would go up to $4,000 instead of $400, no one would buy it, and Apple would go out of business. Therein lies the conundrum.

 

[Quiksilver]

But what if we made Apple built the Iphone in the US? We'd create jobs, manufacturing, exports, lower the trade deficit, increase tax revenue...all of those things would be great, except the cost of one phone would go up to $4,000 instead of $400, no one would buy it, and Apple would go out of business. Therein lies the conundrum.

Indeed...

If western governments are indeed servants--in that we tell them what to do and they obey--then it's our (the majority) fault and it's incorrect to blame any politician or party for the current economic mess, aside from the central banking debacle.

Sadly I believe it will take a full collapse to have a real chance to fix the mess. It has to coincide with a rise in consciousness and the death of consumerism though.

Not to mention other nations might not be so inclined to resist slave labor and could economically 'get ahead' by whoring themselves out to free trade while the morally correct thing to do is have steep penalties for trading with crap countries.

I don't have the economic acumen to know how to accomplish the above or if it's even the best solution.

 

[Stagger Lee]

I think the question is, due to the complexity of the issue, Can it be reversed with the current system or must we have a massive and prolonged collapse in order to rebuild properly?

I think we're hooked on low prices. In the 1970's, before globalism, what little technology existed was stupidly expensive. A simple, corded multi-line office telephone was about $400.

Coincidentally, that's about what a new Iphone costs today, and they are built under worker conditions that, while not the worst in the world, are still bad enough that they had to install anti-suicide nets around the dormitories : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides

But what if we made Apple built the Iphone in the US? We'd create jobs, manufacturing, exports, lower the trade deficit, increase tax revenue...all of those things would be great, except the cost of one phone would go up to $4,000 instead of $400, no one would buy it, and Apple would go out of business. Therein lies the conundrum.

That's not really true. The cost difference per unit for a mass produced item being produced with 3rd world wages vs US wages is only a certain percentage usually less than about 20%, not anything like 1000% in your example. There's not that much labor man-hours in manufacture goods per item. A lot of products were outsourced and the savings was minimal. The savings are not passed on to the consumer. The seller will charge the price that they still sell the maximum volume regardless of production cost savings. The cost saving are passed on as profits.

There are still US made products that are only a few percentages more expensive than the outsurced counterpart and when you add in the higher qaulity of the US item it is a wash at least. The problem is if a consumer can save a few pennies they'll choose the outsourced item even if the quality is lower. And also businesses will have problems competing with companies that outsource and can undercut them by pennies and maintain and as high or higher profit. Take cars for instance. It doesn't get much more technically advanced then that, but a say Mexico produced Ford sold in the US is not sold cheaper than similar US made cars.

Sure, if all these products were made in the US, the cost would increase slightly, mostly due to taxes and regulations in the US more than because of wage costs. But the value would be higher because it would keep jobs and wages commensurate and al lthe benefits of tax revenue like services and infrastructure development and repair would be realized. Outsourcing is false economics that primarily benefit the importer in the end.

 

[Bible_Belt]

You're right in that the US-made I-phone might not be 1,000% more expensive, but if it's more than consumers can afford, it won't exist anyway, so the result is the same. From what I read, the exact price of a US-made Iphone is widely debated and since it doesn't exist, it's all conjecture. I did read one person say that globalism is the choice between having cheap stuff but no jobs, and having jobs but not being able to afford anything.