How to go about setting boundaries?

[SAYNO]

It seems to me that whenever the topic of boundaries comes up it always centers around exclusivity issues. What about other types of boundaries that have nothing to do with cheating?

Example: my gf was over and my 18-year-old daughter was home from college because she was sick. Daughter said "dad, will it help if I..." And gf started to answer. I immediately interrupted and said, politely but clearly, "don't answer for dad". That was setting a boundary, in my view.

Other boundaries that I have established:
- respect my house and car; leave no messes
- when coming over to eat, bring something
- don't make plans involving me without asking me first
Now, it's not like I set her down and made a list of rules and hung them on the refrigerator like I did for my kids when they were younger. But I took opportunities like the one described above to politely but firmly and clearly express my expectations in these types of matters.

It is my belief that if she begins violating the types of boundaries I'm describing above that it won't be long before she's disrespecting the more core and critical boundaries that have to do with things like exclusivity and basic respect.[/QUOTE]

EXCELLENT OBSERVATION!

Disrepect comes in many forms all of which lead up to the ultimate disrepect of lying and cheating. Let me tell you about a female that I dated once. She used to come over to my house and clean it she would get it pretty close to spotless, well one day she came over and decided to mop my floor I didn't have a mop bucket so you wanna know what this b!tch did? She actually took one of my nicest cooking pot filled it water and used it as a bucket. Now whether that was a **** test or not it pissed me off pretty badly and I let her know that if she ever did something like that again that she was out.

I mean think about it who the f●ck wants to eat out of something that she used to mop the floor with?
Well in the back of my mind somehow I knew that she would eventually cheat on me and guess what? About a year later she did just that. But I was spinning five other playes at that time.. so it didnt sting as bad had I not observed this disrepect up front..

 

[jc_80]

I don't know why everybody makes a big deal about this topic. I've said this before and it was blown over as I'm sure this post will be too.

It's really not that complicated. By the time she asks or you accept exclusivity, you should both have screened each other's values and tolerance levels for these contentious relationship issues. That's what the pre commitment dating period is for - to find out if you're compatible enough to continue seeing each other and progressing things. You just bring it up in conversation in various non interrogating ways. I can't think of any woman who hasn't revealed these things or attempted to get me to reveal my own opinions on the topic so that she can decide whether I'm a good match for her before she pops the commitment question. Many here seem to think only men worry about cheating and disrespectful behavior. Women do too.

 

[Zarky]

It is my belief that if she begins violating the types of boundaries I'm describing above...

Please see my post in another thread about boundaries. You don't set boundaries for others. You set boundaries for yourself. You don't tell others what to do, you allow them to understand what you will do if they behave in certain ways.

Boundaries are not about others, they're about what you think of yourself.

 

[jc_80]

Please see my post in another thread about boundaries. You don't set boundaries for others. You set boundaries for yourself. You don't tell others what to do, you allow them to understand what you will do if they behave in certain ways.

Boundaries are not about others, they're about what you think of yourself.

Boundaries cant exist without consequences. Therefore by stating a consequence, you're establishing a boundary. It's impossible to not set boundaries for others. The fuss here is about how to establush boundaries. It's simple. You screen each other over a period of time so that you both feel you're compatible enough to progress to a commitment level relationship without being a relationship dictator. You should both just already know what you expect of each other.

Also there's another thing people are confused about it seems. I don't recall Danger ever saying that boundaries prevent a person from cheating. His idea is that establishing boundaries prevents confusion about expectations. This is really in line with what I'm trying to say and also Peaks&Valleys too. Just that we assume we figure this out by screening before she asks for commitment whereas Danger approaches the topic in a way that assumes you haven't screened each other. Or maybe he wants to clarify his expectations at the time of acceptance. Nothung wrong with that if done the right way.

 

[guru1000]

Silence as to my last question.

Reason: What the non-boundary brigade cannot refute is that in any long-term relation sooner or later a discussion will take place as to what you and she consider disrespectful. In LTRs, one cannot evade boundaries, period.

 

[TheMonkeyKing]

I would like to add that a boundary must be set after the adverse behaviour has occurred. We can't just go around saying 'Do this, don't do that' without rhyme nor reason.

Let's apply some science and/or remind ourselves of the basic differences between classical and operant conditioning: http://psychology.about.com/od/behavioralpsychology/a/classical-vs-operant-conditioning.htm

@Sooli:
You didn't need to set a boundary when the same outcome will occur with no boundary.

That is by far the most left-handed logic I have read herein. But thanks for agreeing with my point.

@Guru:

I don't really have a problem with lateness as I am chronically late myself! But if it's an issue for you may be find a chick that shares that same value. And that really is the crux of the matter. The more aligned two peoples values are, the fewer boundaries there are to be set.

All I would say is choose your battles wisely dude.


There is logic in 'buying' a relationship opposed to 'building' one. Knowing who and what you're dealing with is key to avoiding having to place boundaries. But the assumption that a relationship and both parties involved are going to live in perfect harmony, happily ever after, for the next 60years without airing a single grievance toward one or other is the naïve stuff of fairy tales and Hollywood rom-coms.

Not gonna carry on participating this debate. Have made my points now and it's really for the individual to make up his or her own mind. All the best whatever you decide to do moving forward.

 

[zekko]

I would like to add that a boundary must be set after the adverse behaviour has occurred.

This is pretty much the exact opposite of my position. But despite the fact that I am on the "pro boundary" side, I do not make many demands and I'm sure the first thing my girlfriend would tell you about me is that I am not at all controlling.

Look at it this way: When you enter into an exclusive relationship, you are in effect both agreeing BEFOREHAND that you will not cheat. You're not waiting until someone cheats first before deciding you need to modify the behavior.

And before someone chimes in: Yes, OF COURSE you have to maintain high value in a relationship. I would think that would be so obvious as to be a given.

 

[TheMonkeyKing]

Bold.

This is pretty much the exact opposite of my position. But despite the fact that I am on the "pro boundary" side, I do not make many demands and I'm sure the first thing my girlfriend would tell you about me is that I am not at all controlling.

Well, I see you're point, but am with the no-boundary camp in regards that we 'buy' in to a relationship and need to make the adjustments as and when issues arise.

Look at it this way: When you enter into an exclusive relationship, you are in effect both agreeing BEFOREHAND that you will not cheat. You're not waiting until someone cheats first before deciding you need to modify the behavior.

In addition to above, regarding 'buying in', there are certain assumptions that have to be made by both parties - no cheating being the primary.

Cheating is not an issue that requires a boundary it's a given rule in my book. If it happens, it's game over. Simple as that.

For me, boundaries are more to do with the little things that might wind you up a bit, rather than overtly trying to control some one. Being honest about what winds you up shows you have standards and wont be swayed on them. 'Control' however, just simply isn't cool.

And before someone chimes in: Yes, OF COURSE you have to maintain high value in a relationship. I would think that would be so obvious as to be a given.

 

[zekko]

Well, I see you're point, but am with the no-boundary camp in regards that we 'buy' in to a relationship and need to make the adjustments as and when issues arise.

I agree with "buying into" the relationship also. I just want to make sure that all the adjustments are in place before I commit.

Cheating is not an issue that requires a boundary it's a given rule in my book. If it happens, it's game over. Simple as that.

Well, it may be a given to you, but not to everyone. Some couples have open relationships. I'm sure many of them discuss these expectations. Some guys think that they, as alpha men, should be allowed to get some on the side, while the women should not. Some women even agree with them. If you've read "The Sex God Method", this is the expectation that he sets down.

For me, boundaries are more to do with the little things that might wind you up a bit, rather than overtly trying to control some one. Being honest about what winds you up shows you have standards and wont be swayed on them. 'Control' however, just simply isn't cool.

As I've said before, I don't tolerate my girlfriend having one to one meetups with other men (even under the guise of "friendship"). MANY MEN DO. I think it's only fair to let her know on which side of this issue I stand so there is no confusion later on. I don't see this as being "controlling", however, because if she doesn't agree with my values, she is totally free to find another man who has a more liberal viewpoint on the matter. There are clearly many of them around.

Besides, I don't see my boundary as being unreasonable. It was good enough for my parents. It still leaves her plenty of leeway to socialize , talk to, and have contact with other men. It doesn't turn her into a social leper.

 

[guru1000]

Now that the non-boundary brigade got annihilated and made no logical counter-arguments, let’s qualify “boundaries” a little better to make it more understandable for the mainstream and undecided.

What Constitutes a Violation which Merits Boundary Implementation?

Violations can be bifurcated into two categories: (a) Capital offenses, which merit no boundaries; (b) Subtleties, which require overt boundary implementation to maintain good relations.

Capital offenses are ubiquitously known relationship breakers: Cheating, whorish behavior, or any extremely disrespectful deal-breakers which warrant immediate dismissal. These offenses need not be forewarned, as the woman is damaged, thus automatically disqualified from long-term intimacy. Never implement boundaries to a broken woman. I have always preached to qualify your woman extensively; I spoke more about this topic here.

Subtleties are not capital offenses; but notwithstanding critical to overtly discuss with contenders as a myriad violations of these seemly insignificant subtleties could collapse any relation. My subtleties include carrying a respectful tone during a disagreement, maintaining a clean household (if living together), maintaining a level of respect for and time to spend with each other’s families (assuming exclusive relations), no texting during OUR time, etc. There is no right or wrong subtlety; it is individual-based--simply an outline of what will make/keep you happy and the relation respectful.

Many of our debates are not on “boundaries,” but rather whether to place “male companions or orbiters” under “Capital offenses” or “Subtleties.” I’ve always taken the position that male companions/orbiters are grounds for immediate disqualification from exclusivity, thus subsumed under “Capital Offenses.” But, there are exceptions to this rule: What if the male companion, as an example, were a godfather or gay. Thus, you cannot apply binary rules in classifying “Capital offenses,” as myriad exceptions/distinctions may arise.

Reconciliation of “Boundaries” and “Building vs. Buying a Relationship”

Couple years ago, I bought a property. It was an incredibly built Village Russet-brick house located on the water; it also was spacious at 4000 sq. ft., and in an ideal neighborhood. The house possessed all the baseline, non-negotiable attributes that I coveted. Notwithstanding this great “catch,” it wasn’t perfect. I needed to effect subtle changes: I updated the bathrooms and kitchen with European style, granite/marble, installed new cherry wood hard floors, baseboards, and furnishings. At completion, the house was “perfect,” at least in accordance with my standards.

Granted I would not have effected “subtle” changes if the house were devoid of my non-negotiable attributes, specifically exterior aesthetic appeal, size, and location. I also knew after actively looking 7-8 years and maybe 100 houses later that a house of aesthetic appeal, size, and location already pre-finished with cherry wood floors as well as kitchen/bathroom immersed in European-style decorum with granite/marble, all in accordance with my standards, did not exist. I would not find the “perfect” house, but I can buy one with the baseline, non-negotiable characteristics I desired and contour the incidentals to make it “perfect.”

You will never find the “perfect” girl. That’s another myth propagated by AFCs to validate their scarcity. But you can definitely find a compatible contender, and implement boundaries to condition the incidentals.

 

[Atom Smasher]

All men throughout history innately knew that it is up to the men to set boundaries in their relationships and for the women to decide to abide by them or not. All women knew this too.

Only in the past 40 years has a conversation like this even been possible or relevant, because it is innate, natural knowledge.

Just as dogs need a pack leader, so do women. It is healthy and natural for women to submit to a man's boundaries, and in fact they crave this. It is his duty to set them.

Many women leave men precisely because these men are too weak to set boundaries and the women know it. Almost all women crave a man who will set boundaries for them and their relationships. A woman who doesn't respect a man's boundaries is absolutely the wrong woman for that man and should be summarily kicked to the curb. Any dynamic other than the woman fearing losing the man is a dynamic that will eventually implode the relationship. She will outgrow him 100% of the time.

Setting boundaries involves both the setting of the big ones (not seeing other men one-on-one, etc.), and also enforcing the little ones with absolute ruthlessness. The little ones will be tested by her, and she wants to see that you will enforce them. If you don't, she loses respect for you. This is counter-intuitive to what most men believe (because of the feminized education that has been drilled into them), which is that she will lose respect for you if you do set boundaries. All so-called "red pillers" have found that virtually all dealings with women are counter-intuitive. This is no different.

A man has only one weapon against disrespect of boundaries and one method of punishment and correction: Withdrawal of attention. That's the only one, but it's a nuclear weapon if she values you. Words mean next to nothing to women in the context of correcting her behavior. A few calm words and a ruthless, punishing withdrawal does all your talking for you and is the only language she can hear.

If you think you are against setting boundaries, you are fooling yourself because you are always setting boundaries, just lesser ones, things that you expect from both of you. Even the most liberal man sets boundaries. His problem is that he doesn't express them, and doesn't enforce them because he is ashamed.

Men set boundaries in their relationships. All men and women throughout history have always instinctively known this. To even question this would have been considered absolutely absurd 40 or 50 years ago.

 

[zekko]

...And Atom Smasher for the win.

 

[Dhoulmagus]

I know I'm a hypocrite, but I just set up boundaries with this girl. We have agreed to sleep with each other, but if we sleep with another person let each other know.

 

[Soolaimon]

Now that the non-boundary brigade got annihilated and made no logical counter-arguments, let’s qualify “boundaries” a little better to make it more understandable for the mainstream and undecided.!

If you want to see annihilation of the pro boundary debate check out Danger's continuous contradictions in the "glaring inconsistencies of the manosphere" thread debate. Every single point he made he lied and contradicted himself. check it out!

Silence as to my last question.

Reason: What the non-boundary brigade cannot refute is that in any long-term relation sooner or later a discussion will take place as to what you and she consider disrespectful. In LTRs, one cannot evade boundaries, period

If you paid attention to these threads you would know that I've already discussed this.

This is totally different than automatically "defining terms of exclusivity" to a woman before the relationship because you feel she doesn't know what the term means.

It is also different than trying to prod her to get rid of men she should have gotten rid of if you were a high value man.

Nobody has ever said that you won't let her know what is disrespectful if a situation like that occurs.

Automatically defining exclusivity terms comes from insecurity cause you are scared of other men she has is totally different when she should not be worth committing to when she hasn't displayed the appropriate behavior.

Discussing what you expect and what she should do might not work when she doesn't care to follow your terms.

I believe in showing action for what I expect a woman to do. They understand better and respect you more for it.

I once had a girlfriend who smoked. She took out a cigarette out and put it in her mouth while I was driving. I took the cigarette out of her mouth and threw it out the window. I told her "No smoking. I don't like people smoking in my car." She understood that and never did it again. She told me later than no guy ever did that to her before and she always respected me.

Some other beta would sit there letting her smoke without saying a damn word even though it bothered him.

Other guys like you would sit there trying to "define your terms" to her in a lecture of what you feel is "acceptable".

I took the cigarette out of her mouth and threw it out the window. She remembered that and I didn't have to "define terms" to her. With my actions I told her I don't allow that and she knew not to do it again.

Many women leave men precisely because these men are too weak to set boundaries and the women know it. Almost all women crave a man who will set boundaries for them and their relationships. A woman who doesn't respect a man's boundaries is absolutely the wrong woman for that man and should be summarily kicked to the curb. Any dynamic other than the woman fearing losing the man is a dynamic that will eventually implode the relationship. She will outgrow him 100% of the time.

This is a blanket statement cause you don't know who the men and women are in each situation.

Women have left and cheated on men who set boundaries cause they were jealous insecure men.

Men became insecure cause the woman had other men. The men set boundaries out of insecurity trying to stop the woman from going out with other men. The woman ignored his terms and cheated on him.

I have hooked up with taken girls who disrespected their boyfriend's boundaries cause the girls chose not to follow them.

Men with high value don't need to keep setting boundaries for each situation with a woman when he can get other women.

Women should be screened before you become exclusive determining on your own if she is worth exclusivity. When you see she isn't LTR material "defining terms" to her isn't going to work when she will break them later.

In order to set boundaries you need to have value and respect from the woman to follow those boundaries.

If you don't she will not follow them and take it seriously.

Just because you set a boundary with her doesn't mean she is going to follow it.

That is what you guys don't seem to understand.

Every man must have his own set of expectations that he holds firm with how he believes his woman should behave.

When she breaks your code of law she is to be dumped with no questions asked.

When you have a strong frame you are able to do that with no problem.

 

[guru1000]

I once had a girlfriend who smoked. She took out a cigarette out and put it in her mouth while I was driving. I took the cigarette out of her mouth and threw it out the window. I told her "No smoking. I don't like people smoking in my car." She understood that and never did it again. She told me later than no guy ever did that to her before and she always respected me.

Sooli,

Congratulations! Welcome to the boundary crew.

 

[Soolaimon]

Sooli,
Congratulations! Welcome to the boundary crew.

Like I said what you guys are doing is different before a relationship begins defining terms to a woman who should already know what exclusive means.

I'm not going to get into that again cause it's been dicussed to death.

My situaton was different cause I didn't automatically set terms like you guys are doing.

That has been my whole point all the time.

I set terms in any context at any time: pre-exclusivity, post-exclusivity, pre-marriage, post-marriage; even post-divorce, lol.

I set boundaries to my employees, partners, friends, acquaintances.

The time, place, and context of setting boundaries are irrelevant. Set them as you need them and "rule" with an iron fist if said boundaries are broken.

It is very relevant cause it is not the same thing as you are describing with your boundary method. I've stated that very clearly.

You and The411 want to compare boundaries between employees, partners, friends, acquaintances, parents, whatever.

Those are not the same between a boyfriend/girlfriend.

Those are different and not the same.

You can't compare those together.

Actually, I did get married once. Unfortunately, it didn't work out.

Should I allow my girlfriend to live with guys?

I'm hanging out with my gf in bed watching a film and she gets a text from one of her male friends.

His profile: Orbiter who tried to hook up with her a number of times before. I took her word for it that nothing ever happened between the two, shrugged my shoulders and left it.

But today was different. After reading the text she laughs and says "The french guy wants to know what I'm doing next Saturday. So annoying"

I look over. The text she receives brings up the entire conversation and I notice there are several times when she has instigated the conversation with him.

I thought that was weird so I asked to read the conversation. Several times he'd asked if she "still had a boyfriend". She told him she did but continued the conversation in spite of his obvious intentions.

So at this point in the conversation it has basically morphed into her seeking validation at rocky times during our relationship, say after an argument. I made it clear this was a massive red flag. At what point does it go from simple texts to her turning into a full blown cheater in the name of "validation". On top of that I voiced my frustration at the notion of her even needing validation from other guys when she was already in a supposedly committed relationship.

At the very least this demonstrates that she is not immune to the temptation of orbiters which again is a red flag.

So I finally broke up with my gf of 1 year

She had had some AWing in the past which I had to set boundaries for. This included concurrent dating early on, emotional vampirism with helpless beta orbiters, etc.

I gave an ultimatum that very few women would actually meet

I say "So you blatantly violate my boundaries and disrespect me like that?"

She says "Whatever, you're freaking out. You said I needed friends so I hung out with my friends."

I say, "You have 45 minutes to get home or we're done."

Suffice it to say that she got there much later. Thus the end of the relationship.

Boundaries probably prevented me from getting sucked in deeper

I wish I had executed things more tactfully, namely I should have just put her on notice and then faded out rather than get angry and take it personally.

All of these betas tried to set boundaries with their women.

They either set boundaries later or argued with her on their boundary instead of applying action when they should have.

They let the bad behavior slide longer to their demise. That is being a beta.

Their boundaries were useless cause they didn't work.

The women didn't value them as men to respect them or their boundary.

The women had free will to choose what they wanted to do.

The women chose to break their boundary.

As a result failed marriages and relationships.

It's about value, attraction, interest, and respect.

No boundary will work when none of that is present.

Not sure why these boundary guys want to argue with me about their failed boundaries.

You would think they could see it didn't work themselves.

Setting a boundary with her does nothing for you to have the power to dump her. You can do that without a boundary.

She violated "your terms". That means you lost your value to her. The boundary does not make you a valuable man.

That is what you guys can't understand living in denial and delusion.

 

[guru1000]

I set terms in any context at any time: pre-exclusivity, post-exclusivity, pre-marriage, post-marriage; even post-divorce, lol.

I set boundaries to my employees, partners, friends, acquaintances.

The time, place, and context of setting boundaries are irrelevant. Set them as you need them and "rule" with an iron fist if said boundaries are broken.

 

[Zarky]

Boundaries cant exist without consequences. Therefore by stating a consequence, you're establishing a boundary. It's impossible to not set boundaries for others.

The focus is different, and is all-important.

For example: if you "set a boundary" for your girlfriend not to cheat on you, and she does, then that boundary has failed.

However: if you set a boundary on your own behavior that you will leave if your girlfriend cheats on you, and she does, and you do, you have succeeded.

So you see, as long as you live up to the expectations you set for yourself with your own boundaries, you can't fail. Whereas if you try to directly control others' behavior, you will often fail.

Yes, setting a boundary for yourself will often have the effect of influencing others' behavior. But that's not its ultimate goal. Its ultimate goal is for you to recognize and live up to your own worth on this planet.

I think this is very important. Glossing over it will make a person an ineffective boundary setter, because his focus will be external rather than internal.

 

[Zarky]

Still not entirely sure why so much "boundary" talk is on trying to get the woman to be exclusive. Is that really a problem for so many? Sh*t, I have to encourage women to hang out with their friends rather than try to spend every night either texting or seeing me.

Maybe I attract clingers. My "boundaries" are often "10 more minutes of texting and then I'm done for the night."

 

[zekko]

For example: if you "set a boundary" for your girlfriend not to cheat on you, and she does, then that boundary has failed.

However: if you set a boundary on your own behavior that you will leave if your girlfriend cheats on you, and she does, and you do, you have succeeded.

Agreed.

Because each man seems to have different "walk-away" boundaries, this is where the heart of the disagreement lies. If my girl hung out with another "male friend" one on one, that is a walk-away event for me, as well as others like Solly. People like Exception or Peaks however do NOT consider it a walk-away event. Thus, women are unable to understand what is and is not acceptable to a man in a relationship.

With this in mind, I can either choose to NOT let her know my boundary until she violates it and I then walk away, or to proactively define it when she requests exclusivity. I choose the latter, for that particular case.

You're right, this is the heart of the disagreement. And I don't know why this has been such a sticking point, because I would certainly expect different men to have different "walk away" boundaries. People are not all the same, that would be boring.

Also, not only do Peaks and Exception NOT consider hanging with male friends as a walk away event, they actually encourage their girls to do so.
I have no doubt that some guys who do this are using it as cover so they can cheat themselves under the guise of friendship. Not all, but some.

Then you have the often taught PUA tactic where if a guy talks to your girl and they seem to be getting along, you tell them "Wow, you two make a cute couple, you should totally hook up". Add that in and you have guys eagerly pushing girls into other guys' arms all that time. No wonder there is so much confusion on the issue in women's minds lol.