How to go about setting boundaries?

[Dhoulmagus]

A lot of good advice in here from Monkeyking, Zekko, Pairs and Social Leper.

As guru states.

How would a woman know the rules of engagement is they are not articulated to her?

When she requests commitment, you define commitment for her. She can either accept, or decline. A man of value does not care either way. But if she enters your world, she will know your expectations.

Why? To remove ambiguity and to filter out those who would disagree with them.

Now, there will be those who say "she will still cheat on you", or "boundaries are useless because she won't follow them when she loses interest". These arguments are based upon applying a false premise for boundaries.

Boundaries are not meant to keep her from cheating, nor are they meant to be a perfect filter. They are a communication vehicle for your expectations before you give away your precious commitment. All arguments on the subject are based on the premise that you retain high value.

Now, cue for the haters who either want free reign for women to do as they please, or who for whatever reason think that men should have clear expectations everywhere in life, but somehow lose the balls to do it when it comes to girls.

Expectations for what? Cheating is not complicated at all. You shouldn't have to tell your girlfriend not to cheat in a passive aggressive manner. She should already know this.

 

[Dhoulmagus]

Expectations on the definition of exclusivity. Do you consider her hanging out one-on-one with other men cheating?

No, but that's just disrespectful to put your partner in a thinking frenzy. That's like telling your parents you are going to hang out with a bunch of people that do meth, but also telling them you won't dare touch meth. Plus, if a girl wants to cheat than she will cheat regardless of what barrier you put in front of her.

 

[jurry]

Nooo dhoul dont.. Get.. Sucked.. Innn!!

*tries to pull dhoulmagus back from the black hole of trying to argue with danger*

 

[Soolaimon]

Boundary Method Example

Bob sets a boundary with his woman before the relationship starts.

Woman: Bob I want to be exclusive with you.

Bob: My terms of a relationship is that you do not hang out with other men 1 on 1 or with any orbiters.

Woman: Ok Bob I totally agree to those terms.

Bob and the woman become exclusive.

7 months later Bob's woman starts losing interest in Bob. She hangs out Dlck a former fvk buddy from the past. Bob dumps her for breaking the terms of his boundary.




Non Boundary Method example

Bob has his expectations of how he believes a woman should behave in a relationship.

He believes women should already know the written rules of relationships.

Bob becomes exclusive with his woman.

7 months later Bob's woman starts losing interest in Bob. She hangs out Dlck a former fvk buddy from the past. Bob dumps her for breaking the written rules of a relationship.


What is the difference with having a boundary or not?

There is none.

In both examples the woman was losing interest in Bob.

She hung out with Dlck breaking the terms of Bob's boundary.

She hung out with Dlck breaking the terms of the written rules of a relationship.

The woman was automatically dumped for misbehaving in both cases.

The relationship ended in both cases cause Bob has the power to dump her.

It was about her lost interest, attraction, and Bob's value in both examples like it is for every relationship.

There is no difference with having a boundary or no boundary.

The same outcome will occur when the woman loses interest and attraction for you.

She will still want other men when she loses interest. The relationship will end with or without a boundary when she misbehaves and she gets dumped by the man.

You don't need a boundary for any of this happen.

Why can't some of you guys understand this?

It isn't that difficult.

Myself and sooli and others are absolutely NOT saying that you shouldn't have standards or expectations, simply that there should be no need to vocalize them in the form of a boundary discussion that sounds like something youd have with a child, it will he obvious by how you carry yourself and how you respond to her actions.

Jurry it's obvious these guys can't read, comprehend the written word. All they do is repeat the same fallacy over again. They don't want to admit the whole point of the boundary is useless cause of their own insecurities.

Every man must have his own set of expectations that he holds firm with how he believes his woman should behave.

When she breaks your code of law she is to be dumped with no questions asked.

When you have a strong frame you are able to do that with no problem.

I don't have no idea why this would be so hard to understand?

Telling her what you "expect" verbally becomes a waste of time when she doesn't comply to those expectations when her IL is 0 months later.

You are still going to do what I have written above anyway when she breaks "your terms". That is dumping her.

You don't need a verbal boundary to have the conviction of being a strong man.

High Value Men don't waste time with useless boundaries cause they ALWAYS have more women available. They aren't concerned with only ONE woman who might misbehave. If she does she gets replaced!

How would a woman know the rules of engagement is they are not articulated to her?

If she is too stupid to know what they are after, she is not worth committing to

Still lying and contradicting yourself?

First you say a woman doesn't know the rules.

Then you say if she is too stupid to know what they are after (meaning the orbiters) she is not worth committing to.

Only an idiot wouldn't know what an exclusive relationship means. That is a woman you don't want to be with period!

She will never have any common sense to understand anything at all. Those are women to avoid for exclusive relationships!

That is why you screen and filter before becoming exclusive.

Setting verbal boundaries is not needed when they are easily broken later on.

The example of that above makes it clear.

Judge a woman on her actions. Not her verbal words to "your terms". Verbal words are useless when they are broken. Her behavior is what determines if she is worthy to be exclusive with.

I agree with your contradiction!

 

[zekko]

Let me just say this. Basically I agree with the premise that if your girl hangs out with other men she should be dumped. HOWEVER, since women these days have so many conflicting messages coming at them, if she's a cool chick, I will give her the opportunity to show her compliance by stating my expectations. After all, many posters here don't think there's anything wrong with her hanging out with her male friends. If she complies, great. If not, oh well, she gets dumped. But I've never had a chick not comply, so far.

For some reason, the idea of stating your expectations seem to make a lot of posters here angry. I have no idea why.

 

[Dhoulmagus]

Ok, so you are saying it is not cheating, but it is disrespectful.


If it is disrespectful, why would you not articulate that to her when she requests exclusivity?





That is funny coming from the guy who will accuse the manosphere of "whining", and then writes pages of threads just to avoid a simple yes/no question on who has to pay for lawyers for a sexual assault charge. Talk about cowardly.

I shouldn't have to. If she doesn't think it's disrespectful to get hammered and go out in high sexual tension situations than she's not for me.

To Zekko,

Comply or not comply. You can tell a cheater to not cheat but she most likely will. If it's not in their conscience already than it's pointless.

 

[Dhoulmagus]

I completely agree on the "getting hammered"......but that is only one subset of the possibility of hanging out with other men.

To many women, cheating is not the same as hanging out with another man one-on-one. We have constant examples here of men who's women hang out with other men, Peaks and Exception being among them. Backbreaker has a number of girls it seems who are taken but still hang out with him, or he hangs out with them despite his situation.

Based on these alone, it becomes apparent that women do NOT know effective boundaries because it appears men have all different boundaries than the next guy. So how can a woman know?

She may even not be engaging in one-on-one behaviors with men now, but that doesn't mean she may not in the future. If an old college or high-school "friend" comes around, she never understood your definition of exclusivity was different than her last man's.

It's not cheating it is disrespectful. She could have rode the carousel that night or not have done anything at all. You will really never know unless you put her under a lie detector test. She has entrenched a horrible thought in your head that she could have gotten her walls ravaged that night. Some guys can look the other way and not think about it, but I can't.

 

[guru1000]

It's not cheating it is disrespectful.

Does disrespectful behavior warrant her permanent dismissal if she doesn't think/know it's disrespectful?

If "yes," I think its disrespectful when a contender is 10 minutes late to a meeting. Should I dismiss the contender immediately and permanently if she appears 10 minutes late without verbal explanation?

 

[MOTU]

It seems to me that whenever the topic of boundaries comes up it always centers around exclusivity issues. What about other types of boundaries that have nothing to do with cheating?

Example: my gf was over and my 18-year-old daughter was home from college because she was sick. Daughter said "dad, will it help if I..." And gf started to answer. I immediately interrupted and said, politely but clearly, "don't answer for dad". That was setting a boundary, in my view.

Other boundaries that I have established:
- respect my house and car; leave no messes
- when coming over to eat, bring something
- don't make plans involving me without asking me first
Now, it's not like I set her down and made a list of rules and hung them on the refrigerator like I did for my kids when they were younger. But I took opportunities like the one described above to politely but firmly and clearly express my expectations in these types of matters.

It is my belief that if she begins violating the types of boundaries I'm describing above that it won't be long before she's disrespecting the more core and critical boundaries that have to do with things like exclusivity and basic respect.

 

[zekko]

To Zekko,

Comply or not comply. You can tell a cheater to not cheat but she most likely will. If it's not in their conscience already than it's pointless.

As Danger pointed out, we're not talking about cheating* here. We're talking about what is to many a gray area, such as is it cool for a woman to hang out with a male friend? The men on this forum can't agree on this, so how can you expect a woman to know what to do?

Let's say a girl has been dating Peaks or Exception, and they have filled her head with all this stuff about how they should have opposite sex friends, so she gets herself a few. Then they break up and you end up with her. You don't find that behavior acceptable, so what do you do? Is this girl really a lost cause, or has she just fallen victim to some bad advice?

*Actually, to me, this might as well be cheating, since I consider it unacceptable.

 

[TheMonkeyKing]

1) Let's admit, only a man of high value can set boundaries, that's a ,given.

2)

Boundary Method Example
Bob sets a boundary with his woman before the relationship starts.
Woman: Bob I want to be exclusive with you.
Bob: My terms of a relationship is that you do not hang out with other men 1 on 1 or with any orbiters.
Woman: Ok Bob I totally agree to those terms.
Bob and the woman become exclusive.
7 months later Bob's woman starts losing interest in Bob. She hangs out Dlck a former fvk buddy from the past. Bob dumps her for breaking the terms of his boundary.

This is an extreme example from Sooli and can happen at any point, under any circumstance, regardless of weather 'boundaries have been set'. In fact, the man that has no boundaries set has not actively tried to avoid this situation.

3) It really depends upon WHAT behaviour we are talking about. The boundaries I personally set concern the chick's behaviour which concern her and me, not her and others.

When it comes to hanging with other guys, well yeah, I'm in the 'no boundary' camp on that. Telling a chick she can't hang with any other males ever comes across as controlling, insecure, is highly unlikely nor practical and will likely be counter-productive in the end. Allowing her exposure to other men will actually make her appreciate you more, so long as you maintain status as the better option. If she does meet a better option, well that really is beyond anyone's control.

4) In response to Jurry, I would agree that ideally non-verbal cues would indicate to a woman when she as done wrong. Unfortunately women are 'aural' creatures and rely heavily on communication in their reasoning. We shouldn't have to describe what's going on, but if we don't then we potentially lose (months or years of) our investment. We shouldn't have to be the adult in the room, but let's be honest, sometimes, we do have to be. In addition, moody and silent is exactly that; moody and silent.

5) It doesn't have to be whiny and b!tchy. It should be clear, calm, matter of fact and final. They should be told what the consequences of their action will be and they should also be shown (non-verbally) what those consequences are, at least temporarily.

6) Stick to your word. Don't back down. Three strike rule is as good as any. First time ignore and withdraw; second time, verbal-warning and withdraw. Third time; well, they had their warning.

7) Rollo has addresed this issue in his recent blogging and makes some interesting points; also allowing LondonTowers and Sooli some notoriety!

Rollo concludes: The hand burned by the stove teaches better than any warning.

I understand the sentiment and science of conditioning here, though I do not subscribe to the methodology (for once). The hand burned by the stove experiences physiological consequences which deter the subject from repeating the same behaviour. Without (at least one) verbal explanation regarding the consequence of action within a relationship, some people (let's say women) will not have cause to be deterred because there has been little or no consequence to their adverse behaviour (except the loss of a sulky, silent lesser alpha who can't make a show of power to his woman).

8) The behaviour that I have set boundaries for (concerning her and me ONLY):

-Don't flake on me. Either you can see me or you can't. If you flake on me, I start flaking on you (getting better, but far from perfect).
-Don't spend hours on your phone, especially to other guys, when you're with me (she never touches her phone anymore when we are together).
-Don't disappear for weeks on end because one day you'll text me and I'll be gone for good (much more regular contact now and coming over to my place more more frequently; my place : her place is probably about 4:1 currently). She also pushed for exclusivity in the last month, which I accepted, with the (verbal) caveat that it doesn't mean I trust her.

What she does when she's not with me, well, that's not for me to even guess, let alone try to control. But her behaviour is changing. And in my favour.


In summary, the boundary is a challenge. If they pass they pass and everyone's happy.

I can open my mouth and say something and she will act accordingly. Otherwise, they will act accordingly anyway and I never gave myself a chance.

 

[guru1000]

For the non-boundary crew, I challenge any one of you to answer this question. I will reiterate:

Does disrespectful behavior warrant her permanent dismissal if she doesn't think/know it's disrespectful?

If "yes," I think its disrespectful when a contender is 10 minutes late to a meeting. Should I dismiss the contender immediately and permanently if she appears 10 minutes late without verbal explanation?

 

[Dhoulmagus]

For the non-boundary crew, I challenge any one of you to answer this question. I will reiterate:

Does disrespectful behavior warrant her permanent dismissal if she doesn't think/know it's disrespectful?

If "yes," I think its disrespectful when a contender is 10 minutes late to a meeting. Should I dismiss the contender immediately and permanently if she appears 10 minutes late without verbal explanation?

It depends on what she did? Showing up 10 minute late is fluff compared to her spending the night at her exes.

 

[guru1000]

It depends on what she did? Showing up 10 minute late is fluff compared to her spending the night at her exes.

Glad you can recognize the distinction. Now for "fluff" events, do you agree that verbally delineating your expectations to the contender, such as in the quoted example below, is acceptable?

"Contender, being on time is important to me."

 

[Dhoulmagus]

Glad you can recognize the distinction. Now for "fluff" events, do you agree that verbally delineating your expectations to the contender, such as in the quoted example below, is acceptable?

No, as long as it's not like a hour later. Im never even on time lol

 

[guru1000]

... as long as it's not like a hour later.

I'm glad to see that you have at least one standard of engagement. So your “fluff” event is triggered only IF a contender were to show up one hour or greater late. Accordingly, using the example of what YOU consider disrespectful:

If a contender you were seeing for one year showed up one hour late to a meeting, would you dismiss her immediately and permanently without verbal explanation and without further discussion as to why she was late?

 

[Soolaimon]

The OP's situation completely rebuts your false KJing hypothetical. Boundaries are not for OBVIOUS situations like meeting up with a former fvck buddy(fyi women that have fvck buddies are not relationship material). You might as well have said she was caught cheating. As usual, there is 0 tact and nuance in your analysis. The OPs situation is not analagous at all. Men in the real world in romantically attached relationships dont dump a gf just for meeting some work friend guy for coffee. Or accepting an old exes friend request on facebook.

Learn how to understand the material you are reading first before you post again next time. That way you won't embarrass yourself again.

I'm speaking about boundaries in general for any situation not just for the OP. They are useless.

The examples here are perfect. There is nothing false about it. It shows the fallacy to your boundary theory that you can't answer for. That makes you angry.

The boundary method example is what these same guys have been preaching over and over in several threads now. That is their own method they tell men to use. I posted it here in the example. I guess you couldn't pick up on that.

Why do you have problem with it? Do you not know your own theory that you believe in?

You dumped your woman for meeting with "some friend guy" when she lost interest in you breaking "your terms" of the boundary.

So what's the problem man?

You did the same thing Bob did in the first boundary example. Why are you trying to argue with me about it? Don't be a hypocrite contradicting yourself.

Your relationship was a bust. You didn't need to set a boundary when the same outcome will occur with no boundary.

She had lowering IL and you tried to change her behavior by setting a boundary. That will never work for you.

You don't need to set a boundary with her to take the action of dumping her. That comes for your own conviction and fortitude.

Women cheat on men they lose interest in with or without a boundary!

Are you telling me that attraction, interest, value is not what keeps a woman with a man?

You don't need a boundary in a relationship when you have high value and are a strong confident man.

Your ex was concurrently dating fvk buddies before you became exclusive. What is your problem?

FYI women can have former fvk buddies from the past get in contact again with her at anytime.

Do you think they won't when they are looking for a fvk?

When your woman's interest is waning she might take him up on that offer.

Your relationship will disintegrate after that.

With or without a boundary!

Men in the real world in romantically attached relationships dont dump a gf just for meeting some work friend guy for coffee. Or accepting an old exes friend request on facebook

You are a man in the real world that dumped your women for meeting with some friend guy.

Why do you have a problem with the example when you did the same thing?

The boundary method example describes you to a T.

 

[Atom Smasher]

It boils down to this: The woman must dread losing you. That means you establish greater value than her. You explain to her what exactly would make you go away. You demonstrate your resolve by withdrawing your attention ruthlessly when she tests your boundaries.

That's how a woman comes to respect boundaries. The boundaries aren't set forth in order to demand that she obeys them. No, they are set forth so that she knows what you allow and what you forbid forbid in your kingdom. She's a guest in your world, and she needs to know what behavior will cause her to be eliminated. If she values you and has high interest, she will respect the boundaries, and she will appreciate your having set them.

I've had three girlfriends tell me out of the blue that one thing they love about me is that I set "guidelines" (as they word it) for our relationship.

Think of setting boundaries as informing her of what behavior will make you eliminate her from your life. And back it up with ruthlessness.

 

[Soolaimon]

It boils down to this: The woman must dread losing you. That means you establish greater value than her. You explain to her what exactly would make you go away. You demonstrate your resolve by withdrawing your attention ruthlessly when she tests your boundaries.

That's how a woman comes to respect boundaries. The boundaries aren't set forth in order to demand that she obeys them. No, they are set forth so that she knows what you allow and what you forbid forbid in your kingdom. She's a guest in your world, and she needs to know what behavior will cause her to be eliminated. If she values you and has high interest, she will respect the boundaries, and she will appreciate your having set them.

I've had three girlfriends tell me out of the blue that one thing they love about me is that I set "guidelines" (as they word it) for our relationship.

Think of setting boundaries as informing her of what behavior will make you eliminate her from your life. And back it up with ruthlessness.

The point I'm making is none of these women respect the men enough to follow the boundary.

The men don't have the value in the first place when they are setting the boundary.

The men don't have the value to keep her following the boundary.

When there is no respect there is no boundary or relationship.

It doesn't matter what you forbid in the kingdom when she doesn't care to follow the guidelines when she loses interest.

All of these threads show women breaking boundaries with no problem.

Women I slept with had no problem breaking their boyfriend's boundaries either.

It's all about her interest and attraction and her man's value.

She will appreciate it and respect it when she has it.

She will disregard it when she loses attraction and respect.

That will happen whether you set boundaries or not.

That has been my entire point.

 

[The411]

The point I'm making is none of these women respect the men enough to follow the boundary.

The men don't have the value in the first place when they are setting the boundary.

The men don't have the value to keep her following the boundary.

When there is no respect there is no boundary or relationship.

It doesn't matter what you forbid in the kingdom when she doesn't care to follow the guidelines when she loses interest.

All of these threads show women breaking boundaries with no problem.

Women I slept with had no problem breaking their boyfriend's boundaries either.

It's all about her interest and attraction and her man's value.

She will appreciate it and respect it when she has it.

She will disregard it when she loses attraction and respect.

That will happen whether you set boundaries or not.

That has been my entire point.

What Fooli is basically telling the forum is the boundary he is unable to break is his own inability to place a boundary on any relationship. Fooli is a helpless, stuttering incel who's afraid of his own shadow and has no faith in himself.

Fooli's own therapist still hasn't even been able to get him passed the boundary of his basement to actually talk to a real live chick.