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Homosexuality- A choice? or a natural attraction?

Down Low

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Sure it is. We're just blinded by all the blue that we forget how much green light hits us.

You gotta feel sorry for people who are blind. You want to help them, but since they're adults, you presume that they're competent to handle their own business. You don't want to interfere with their often clumsy attempts to help themselves. You wait for them to ask for help before you offer assistance. Then you give only the bare minimum assistance that the situation demands.

Same for the physically blind as well as those who just won't see what's in front of them. But let's limit this to clinical illness rather than those who are suffocated by the garbage of feminist castration propaganda being dumped daily upon them. They're not sick. They're just being manipulated.

We know how to handle physical disability. What about a mental disability?

When a man walks down the street shuffling his feet because he can't lift them, when he stops to have an argument with his own reflection in shop windows, you know he has schizophrenia. He has a mental disability. He's not competent to handle his own affairs because he exhibits classic symptoms of severe illness. He cannot repress them. The disease controls him -- he is not in control of the disease.

The man who is profoundly disturbed with a mental illness is not competent. Period.

What about the man who's sick, but not profoundly? He whose behavior exhibits many abnormalities, but who can still function normally otherwise? Is he sick? Yes. Is he competent? Depends. It depends on how much the abnormalities interfere with the ability to live a normal life (both of himself and of the people with whom he interacts). It's a matter of self-control.

So then, what's a normal life?

For the purposes of this conversation, the part of "normal" that we're interested in is the ability to perform biological functions: respiration, digestion, and so on. Reproduction. "Sex" in the biological sense as in coitus.

Why is that? Because we're limiting the discussion to tangible sickness -- to something that can be observed, measured, and theorized about. Scientific process. Something that falls on the margins of the bell curve. Something abnormal.

That's where anecdotal evidence fails. As much as I trust my eyes and ears, you don't. Or maybe someone else refuses to believe anything that doesn't support his position. Whatever. We have to rely on statistics, logic, and so forth.

Hominids have been around for maybe a hundred thousand generations, give or take some tens of thousands. Statistically speaking, natural selection does not fail to remove any genetic cause for lowered fertility. If there is a genetic cause for homosexual behavior, it will die off simply because anything that lowers fertility is at a disadvantage. A compensatory benefit would have to exist. However, only a small fraction of the population ever engages in homosexual behavior. Any said benefit fails to exist for the overwhelming majority. Any said benefit affects only a few at the extreme edge of the bell curve. And those genetic lines that do benefit -- are the ones being bred out. Thus, any purported compensatory benefit is utterly improbable (can never be proved). From a genetic point of view, homosexual behaviors are abnormal.

If there is no genetic cause for homosexual behavior, again, it lowers fertility. It interferes with the ability to perform a biological function. Why? Because every minute someone spends doing homosexual behaviors is a minute that the person is not doing mating behaviors. Displaced reproductive behavior with no compensatory benefit (for the rest of humanity, as noted above). A tangible, measurable activity that detracts from reproduction. An abnormality.

What do you call a person who performs behaviors that detract from the ability to perform biological processes? Incompetent. He is not in control of these behaviors; rather, they are in control of him. What do you call someone who is incompetent due to behavior instead of physical disability? Mentally ill.

Some people are less ill and can choose to abstain from homosexual behaviors (in the same way that an alcoholic can abstain from drinking). Others are more ill and cannot control themselves.

This line of reasoning is pretty obvious. However, some choose to not hear, not consider, and to trash any discussion along these lines because they do not want it being said that homosexuals are not competent to comment on homosexuality. Let someone who ever performed homosexual behavior abstain for, say 30 years -- only then will I grant even the slightest credibility to his words. If not, it's self-satisfying garbage: "let's talk about it." That's a sickness of blighting social discourse. That's a social disease.
 

Alle_Gory

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Down Low said:
From a genetic point of view, homosexual behaviors are abnormal.
That's not how genetics work. It's simply a natural variation in the code and brain structure. The thing about genetics is that sometimes you get random mutations, if those mutations survive and become beneficial, more of those people with mutations will make up the new genetic pool and the inferior ones from previous generations die off.

Natural selection.

If there is no genetic cause for homosexual behavior, again, it lowers fertility. It interferes with the ability to perform a biological function. Why? Because every minute someone spends doing homosexual behaviors is a minute that the person is not doing mating behaviors. Displaced reproductive behavior with no compensatory benefit (for the rest of humanity, as noted above). A tangible, measurable activity that detracts from reproduction. An abnormality.
I'm not seeing the problem. If they want to do it, why do you care? So they won't reproduce and have kids, would you want to force them in the closet to have kids and perpetuate this even longer? I'm not seeing what the end goal is here.

You're mad that they are gay. Now what.

This line of reasoning is pretty obvious. However, some choose to not hear, not consider, and to trash any discussion along these lines because they do not want it being said that homosexuals are not competent to comment on homosexuality. Let someone who ever performed homosexual behavior abstain for, say 30 years -- only then will I grant even the slightest credibility to his words. If not, it's self-satisfying garbage: "let's talk about it." That's a sickness of blighting social discourse. That's a social disease.
Ok, can you provide evidence to show that it's simply a curable mental illness? Instead of a genetic preference? Can you provide evidence as to when this illness takes over during a person's life and under what conditions it happens?

Because I can.
 

Who Dares Win

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I read somewhere that the amount of homosexual increase and decrease according to the guy/girl ration in a given group, not sure if that was for animals only or for humans as well.

In any case make sense if there are not enough girls for both some guys turn gay and struggles are avoided, but at the same time natural selection also involved fights to reproduce.

There was also a part about girls turning gay so they can help pregnant women with better genetic to take care of their children,theories of course nothing proven.
 

FairShake

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Is everyone ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the room that this guy's name is "Down Low?"
 

SgtSplacker

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OK I never post down here but I saw the topic and couldn't resist sharing my experience.

I used to think that homosexuality was strictly a sexual preference and only belonged in the bedroom.

I recently friended on facebook what was literally one of my first friends ever. We must have met at around the age of 7 or so? Of course he lived close to my house so I would go over pretty often and play.

So when I friend-ed him on FBook I noticed he was openly gay. And this got me to remember how metro this kid was back then. I mean I don't remember any particular instances of gayness. But I remember always being kind of confused as to why he was so feminine. Back then I just didn't get it. But putting some thought into it today I realize he was totally gay back then. And this got me to thinking about the "born gay" theory some people tend to believe in. I used to think it was total hog wash. But now I give it the benefit of the doubt.
 

Down Low

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Alle_Gory said:
That's not how genetics work. It's simply a natural variation in the code and brain structure. The thing about genetics is that sometimes you get random mutations, if those mutations survive and become beneficial, more of those people with mutations will make up the new genetic pool and the inferior ones from previous generations die off.

Natural selection.
Nice try. Except for some very recent experimental stuff, there are no unnatural variations in brain structure. Disease is natural. So calling a diseased brain a "natural" variation says...nothing.

There is zero evidence that homosexuality is tied to any benefit whatsoever, as in the case of the sickle cell anemia gene. (And once humans discovered that keeping a little wet wood burning to make smoke effectively repelled mosquitoes, the benefit of the sickle cell gene disappeared.)

Alle_Gory said:
I'm not seeing the problem. If they want to do it, why do you care? So they won't reproduce and have kids, would you want to force them in the closet to have kids and perpetuate this even longer? I'm not seeing what the end goal is here.

You're mad that they are gay. Now what.
"Are you your brother's keeper?" is a rhetorical question. It should never have to be asked.

I want the mentally ill to get the psychiatric help that should be easy for such a rich society to provide. I want to reduce the suffering of the mentally ill, help them live lives as normal as possible, and prevent untreated mental illness from devastating families and communities.

Alle_Gory said:
Ok, can you provide evidence to show that it's simply a curable mental illness? Instead of a genetic preference? Can you provide evidence as to when this illness takes over during a person's life and under what conditions it happens?

Because I can.
Many mental illnesses have genetic causes. Many do not. The cause of homosexual behavior is not known. The triggers for expressing the diseases are not known. Certainly, an alcoholic must drink before the disease is triggered. How much and for how long -- is not known.

Behavioral disorders have no known cures. The most effective treatment is for the sick person to abstain from the offensive behavior.

There are some psychiatrists who treat homosexual behavior as a mental illness. They try to guide homosexuals into normal male-female relationships.
 

ArcBound

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Down Low you are missing the point. Evolution doesn't need to involve a benefit. That is not how evolution works. Nature is indiscriminate to what your idea of a good mutation is, if the mutation survives then by nature's definition it is "good".

2nd. There are immense variations in brain structures between people. For example more social people have facial recognition nuclei that are more dense than people who aren't. And countless others. Then you can look at the brain variance between men and women which is also crazily different and we use different structures for the same things. Then brain differences between races and age groups.... it goes on and on.

3rd There is a theory that bisexual men have more sexual experience than a straight man would and that would be his benefit.

In fact there were scientific studies done on it: Dixon (1985) found that bisexual men had more sexual activities with women than did heterosexual men.

So chances are that bisexual dude who fvcks guys also fvcks more women than you do.
 

SgtSplacker

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I love seeing these debates by "intelligent" people who just love to generalize and believe that only their reason is the right one for something. Wanna know what really causes it guys? ALL OF THE ABOVE. Some folks have hormone issues, some folks have mental issues, some folks just are gay since day 1. Your all wrong and your all right! See how this can just keep going and going and going. Everybody has proof for their reason of course... lol. the internet for ya!
 

Konada

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^^^ This reminds me of how many Christians think their God is the only one and other religions are BS.
 

ArcBound

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SgtSplacker said:
I love seeing these debates by "intelligent" people who just love to generalize and believe that only their reason is the right one for something. Wanna know what really causes it guys? ALL OF THE ABOVE. Some folks have hormone issues, some folks have mental issues, some folks just are gay since day 1. Your all wrong and your all right! See how this can just keep going and going and going. Everybody has proof for their reason of course... lol. the internet for ya!
You do realize 2-3 people in this thread already said exactly what you said. Thanks for your important contribution to this thread.

Most of the people arguing were arguing with Down Low because through his posts he seems to believe that there cannot be a genetic cause for gayness and he makes an analogy that all gay people are like mentally sick people. What's funny is you talk about generalizing and come into the thread and generalized everyone in it without realizing half the thread already agreed on your point.
 

Guoy Darko

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SamTheHobit said:
No, homo sexuality is not natrual. Please don't be stupid.
Hahahaha! You're from South Africa. Of course they told you it is not "natrual".
 

SgtSplacker

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Sorry ArcBound next time i'll contribute by flaming someones post... yeah that's the right thing to do. Want to know what the REALLY funny thing is? That you talk about contributing to the thread and make a pointless flame post! My post was ON topic. Yours is just QQing about mine, get over it. Stop being so intolerant! Let the other guys play in the sandbox too you big bully!
 

SamTheHobit

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Guoy Darko said:
Hahahaha! You're from South Africa. Of course they told you it is not "natrual".
You obviously know nothing about South Africa, so that was a pretty ignorant statment.

Alot of white night f@ggots on this forum.
 

ArcBound

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SgtSplacker said:
Sorry ArcBound next time i'll contribute by flaming someones post... yeah that's the right thing to do. Want to know what the REALLY funny thing is? That you talk about contributing to the thread and make a pointless flame post! My post was ON topic. Yours is just QQing about mine, get over it. Stop being so intolerant! Let the other guys play in the sandbox too you big bully!
Lol your post was QQing everyone's posts and then you blame me for QQing. The funny thing is every thing you criticize in this thread you do it all the same. Trolls gonna troll :rolleyes:
 

Julius_Seizeher

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Homosexuality is not a conscious choice anymore than heterosexuality is chosen consciously.

And I seriously doubt the efficacy of any "studies" that attempt to prove that homosexuality is genetic. This would be another means for the determinists to paint humanity as an army of unconscious robots programmed by the genetic coding of their dna. Do not be blinded by the pseudo-science of the determinists, no matter whether you encounter them on a television show, in a college lecture hall, or on a dj message board.

The answer to determinism is not scientific, at least not in the realm of physical science; it is a matter of philosophy. When a determinist says, "You cannot prove the existence of free will", he is asking that question upon the unstated premise that you possess free will as means to answer it. Free will, and thus volition, are axiomatic concepts that must be used in any attempts to deny them, which means: those denials deserve no further consideration.

It is much akin to the neoplatonian philosophers (Kant, Hegel, Marx and their ilk) who attempted to denounce Aristotle by using the logic he invented and the concept of identity he formulated to deny the validity of Aristotelian logic and the law of identity.

Anyway, homosexuality is neither volitional nor genetic; it is a matter of psychology.
 

Who Dares Win

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I sincerly dont know the reasons of that but if they are happy living that live and satisfied from their sexuality among adults, they should be free to keep going.

The same way I dont tolerate any mangina or socialist to tell me how to live my life or what is morally acceptable or what to think, I believe in people having the right of their choices and the accountability of the conseguences,same for homosexuals,bisexuals, sado maso people or swingers.
When we defend the right of deviant people we defend our same rights in front of anyone who expect to rule on other people lifes.
 

Alle_Gory

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Julius_Seizeher said:
Anyway, homosexuality is neither volitional nor genetic; it is a matter of psychology.
I see. So it's just like heterosexuality. So really, you choose not to have sex with men, instead you were taught to have sex with women. If you weren't constantly reminded by us, your friends, society, you could be having sex with men.

It's just psychology.
 

Julius_Seizeher

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Alle_Gory said:
I see. So it's just like heterosexuality. So really, you choose not to have sex with men, instead you were taught to have sex with women. If you weren't constantly reminded by us, your friends, society, you could be having sex with men.

It's just psychology.

No asswipe, it's just a bizarre act of psychological projection on YOUR part; your assertion doesn't make any kind of sense.

Are you saying hetero and homosexuality are only different because society tells you so? Are you a braindead zombie who needs society to give you intellectual and monetary handouts because you cannot think and live for yourself?

By psychological, I mean pertaining to that area of man's consciousness that is outside the realm of volition. Homosexuality is a result of a psychological corruption; if there were a "gayness gene" they would have discovered it a long time ago lol.
 

Alle_Gory

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Julius_Seizeher said:
By psychological, I mean pertaining to that area of man's consciousness that is outside the realm of volition. Homosexuality is a result of a psychological corruption;
So you're saying it's easily changeable. It's not a matter of internal workings, it's simply a matter of choice. Psychology.

You are as easily corruptible as the next person and can become a homosexual no problem.


if there were a "gayness gene" they would have discovered it a long time ago lol.
Something like this? http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/jun/16/neuroscience.psychology

You're accusing me of projection, and you're the one arguing that sexuality is more flexible. I argue that you don't have a choice. You are wired a certain way. Here is some evidence to support that theory.

Where is yours? Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot, this is the part where you run away when I ask a tough question. Run away now little man. You have nothing but your opinions, which have as much value as everyone else's.
 
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