Does wifey owe hubby sex?

[ubercat]

So unsurprisingly at my age I have been married. But agree that you do need to keep that connection intimacy and particularly physical intimacy is important. as everyone here knows you also have to and maintain some space. Telling her everything about you and spending all your time with her is a very bad idea.

Of course woman know that sex is their strongest leverage and will use it to get their own way. But she won't think of it that way. She ll just know that she's not getting the control she wants and then will feel bad and of course when she feels bad she doesn't want to have sex. And of course that is your fault for making her feel bad.

I'm experiencing the frame push with my current girlfriend. I've told her she can't stay over on Sunday night's because I need a good night's sleep to get set up for my responsible job. So of course she has interpreted that as me backing away and attacked. Asking me if I want to take a break. Of course the correct period for a break is always forever.

So yes anytime a woman doesn't get her way you can expect the full passive-aggressive Arsenal to be deployed including withdrawal of sex.

It's one of the standard self sabotaging behaviours that women have built-in. They will try for more control and access to your time even though this will lessen attraction eventually.

So standard advice if you do contemplate marriage make sure you have a cast iron prenup and your affairs appropriately structured preferably with your assets held through an overseas trust. As usual if she knows that you can walk then you have some foundation for dread game.

Now please don't take this as woman bashing. I've consistently advocated here that's in an ltr a woman needs variety passion pampering socialisation and romance. But hypergamy never sleeps. You may be a wonderful husband and still have the tap turned off.

 

[highSpeed]

Well the solution then for single men is don't get married. The OP however is discussing marriage. In marriage women value intimacy more than sex. It is the closeness & intimacy which leads to sex for a woman in marriage.

Read my other post again. Some men do not appear to understand the marriage relationship all that well. Some of the previously married men do.

Your post for example basically proves out what I am saying...and that is a husband cannot expect to get his sexual needs met in marriage if the woman is not getting her intimacy needs met. The two are complimentary. Of course intimacy means emotional investment and vulnerability from the man.

Just like sex means physical vulnerability from the woman.

This is a chicken or the egg type of discussion. Well you didn't give me vulnerability, so I'm not giving you sex. Well you didn't give me sex, so I'm not giving you vulnerability. Think about it, the guy, many guys, not all, have already opened themselves up by letting a woman into their world and fusing their lives to hers through relationships, marriage and children. Unless you are a train wreck of a woman, you're getting custody and even in some cases when they are, they still get custody when you divorce. The guy's needs for a connection with their kids is considered less important the moment the relationship dissolves, even though you are financially and legally responsible for them whether or not you stay with the mother. Sounds messed up to me but hey, that's where we are at as a society. Patriarchy? I don't know, sounds like the women have more control in many cases. Think as a married man with kids, even with a good prenup that you are walking away from your marital and family responsibilities even if you wanted to? Think again. Heck, they can even throw out your prenup if the judge thinks it is truly unfair in his opinion. Doesn't matter if they signed it. So how exactly is the man not vulnerable and showing his vulnerability to the woman in this transaction? And after all of that supposed commitment and vulnerability that they want, all of you supposed men say, "She doesn't owe you sex." She doesn't owe you sex? Really? Why, on god's green earth, would any man knowingly sign up for all of the responsibility and vulnerability that they show simply by getting married and having kids that she owes nothing to this agreement? So you get all of the responsibility and none of the benefit. How many guys on here, beta or not, would say, "Hell yea, sign me up!" if someone came to you and said, "Hey, want to get married and have someone else control how much sex you have (which isn't going to be much if any) for the rest of your life!" Yes, she owes you sex. You held up your end of the bargain. She wanted commitment, you gave it. She wanted to be taken care of, you did it. She wanted kids, you gave her them. What exactly is she giving if there is little or no sex? If I wanted someone to hang around with that I didn't want to have sex with, I'd room with one of my buddies. How many of you want to buy a luxury car that you never get to drive but still have to make the payments and take care of the maintenance? And better yet, watch someone else drive it while you still pay for it.

 

[highSpeed]

You know you can and should start doing this before marrying? That way you can see how she treats your feelings and eject from the relationship before there's any legal contract. You cannot determine if a potential wife can be trusted if you never entrust her with something.

If you after marriage start entrusting her with something you risk having picked a woman that cannot be trusted, but you didn't know because you never tested her. Women want that intimate exchange, both being listened to and knowing about you, but as you are aware you cannot trust just any woman. This is why it's important to determine early on in the relationship, she might be able to hurt your feelings but that's a lot better than being fucked over in a legal battle.

It's mind blowing how many men marry without being critical and testing the woman they consider marrying.

Are you serious? It's totally different after you get married. There is no way to simulate being married. They whole idea of the relationship for many women is to get you married. Look at me, I'll give you all of the dirty, nasty sex you require, just wife me up. I'll take care of you. I'll cook for you. I'll clean for you. Oh and at the end of the day, I'll put on the little nighty and let you have your way with me. I'm a sex machine. Oh, got married. Yea, I didn't mean most of those things, it was just to get you married. Now, the courtship is over. Kids are more important. TV is more important. Social media is more important. You, you're just an after thought. Maybe, just maybe, if you do everything I want today, just the way I want it and set aside anything you want, I might have sex with you. That's not if the kids don't need me or I want to do something for myself. That's if my mother, sister, brother or anyone else doesn't call and I blow the whole night talking to them. That's not if I somehow mysteriously get tired at the end of the night. Oh you, you got mad, well that's why I never have sex with you, because you don't know how to behave. Yea, they totally act this way when you're dating them. That's how you end up married to them, they behave like spoiled little brats during the relationship and you say, "Man, I've got to have that. I can't live without the day-to-day hassle of trying to push/pull someone to the finish line that never had any real interest in me to start with." And you think to yourself, "No, that never happens, you just don't know how to sort women out." Yep, that's the problem, not these self centered modern women who are horribly oppressed by these terrible western men.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

Agreed, I mean...what if a man has an accident and can no longer have functioning genitalia? Then what? Will she file for divorce for that reason?

No, marriage is about taking care of each others needs, and sex is only one among many [interesting how we think of sex as the primal need today]. In the past, the women would discreetly take a lover... should she feel the need to do so.

 

[devilkingx2]

[interesting how we think of sex as the primal need today]

in 2017 sex is the only reason you need a woman.

in 2017 sex is the only reason a woman, barring laziness or incompetence, needs a man

 

[kenpiffyjr]

Well no, you aren't owed sex...

How many of you would give intimacy to a woman? I mean real here is who I am, here are my fears & aspirations, how many would truly reveal themselves to a wife?

Men crave sex & women crave intimacy (authentic emotional connection to who her man really is).

Sex will always decline in marriage if the man wants sex but refuses to give intimacy.

Intimacy and sex are the glue that bonds two people. Both are necessary to pair bond.

It takes guts to be "real" with your spouse. If you are a man who desires the sex side of the equation but you are too jaded or afraid to reveal yourself and build intimacy side of the equation...then you have no business getting married as you'll set yourself up for failure if you don't intend to uphold the intimacy side of the contract.

I think plenty of men get married out of pressure (not a good idea) and I think plenty of men don't understand how important intimacy is to a woman as a wife. For men sex is more important but for women intimacy is more important.

This is exactly the dynamic when the woman wants to talk (blah blah blah) about something. A wise man will listen & talk with her. Later, when you go to bed, the chatting and listening you did earlier (building intimacy) pays you a return when you make a sexual overture. She will respond favorably and be receptive to sex.

Ignore her need to chat with you and eventually you'll kill her sexual desire for you.

Why?

You have refused her intimacy, which is hurtful & creates resentment and a feeling of rejection. So men who refuse intimacy should not be surprised when they are refused sex. But couples may not be consciously aware that this dynamic is going on.

Ever wonder how it is that couples who fight end up having sex & staying together? A healthy disagreement is healthy communication. It builds intimacy.

BeExcellent - this is flat out not true, atleast coming from my point of view. Women don't care about receiving intimacy...they care about wanting intimacy.

Picture the mysterious "dark" man who rides a crotch rocket and actually has a frame and aura that gets him sex all the time bc women can't seem to "figure him out". Then let's say he meets a girl who he gets In a relationship with because she's invested and submissive enough to take care of him and he'd like children with her (let's imagine she's the going over to his place just to do his laundry type).

This woman would dread the day this man actually "revealed" himself outside of the mysterious here today gone tomorrow aura he has been the entire time she has known him. Any signs of weakness or being less than what initially attracted her will startle her. If he did start to show his softer side and open up, it would have to be covertly through maybe the way he treats their daughter ...or I'm talking very small nuggets given to her in rare rare moments.

But him never opening up would never kill her attraction to him. Could he gradually get to a closer bond by making her feel like he respects her more and more each day through validation? Yes! That's what she wants more than intimacy. This is similar to the same thing I said in the other thread. We have to get out of this Disney nonsense and stop preaching this to the newer users.

What happened In this situation is that the man clearly failed to vet this woman. I actually agree with posters in here that say you can be he most alpha male and still a woman would do this for leverage...but I honestly believe that some window of time- the man slipped and made her think she could get this type of leverage.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

I don't think it is binary as in be intimate or don't be intimate. I think there are degrees of intimacy. And exactly how intimate a man is with his wife would depend on a myriad of things. For example, there might be an artistic core that she might never understand yet could respect.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

in 2017 sex is the only reason you need a woman.

in 2017 sex is the only reason a woman, barring laziness or incompetence, needs a man

Perhaps you mean 2017 for a 19 year old?

 

[devilkingx2]

Perhaps you mean 2017 for a 19 year old?

what do you need a woman for?

 

[Mike32ct]

Maybe the intimacy thing is important in marriage, but in early stages of dating, it's greatly discouraged. Showing too much weakness, vulnerability or being too much of a romantic is a one way ticket to friendzone (unless he's some SuperChad to compensate).

The thread is obviously about marriage, not dating; I get that. My point is that men are conditioned to "hold back" and "be aloof" during the dating process, so it's probably not easy for them to "switch gears" once married and open up more.

 

[BeExcellent]

this is flat out not true, at least coming from my point of view. Women don't care about receiving intimacy...they care about wanting intimacy.

This is exactly why I am pointing this out. There are things about women that many men do not understand, and this is one of them. It is ABSOLUTELY true that women crave connection/bonding/intimacy, (whatever term you want to use) if you marry a woman that is worth marriage. In fact older men tell me all the time that they seek this as well...its just tough to find a woman WORTH taking the risk. A woman cannot support a man's aspirations if he never reveals what they are. A good woman is a good partner. You can't have a good or even great partner if you do not reveal who you are and what you are about. A good woman will not turn on you if you reveal your weaknesses. In fact she will appreciate the GUTS and STRENGTH it takes to reveal yourself.

This is one of the things some guys here do not seem to get at all. Vulnerability in a man is from a position of strength. You are choosing to be vulnerable despite the fact that someone could use it against you. You are choosing to trust the other person. Pick a woman you can trust. Don't know how to do that? Get some more life experience and/or don't get married. You don't have to. It's not required.

But if you look at life all of society functions based on trust agreements. Ever flown on an airplane? Were you the pilot? Why did you trust a man (or woman EEK!) you don't even know and who might be having a bad day with your life? Because it's an implied trust, that's why.

In the same vein when you start dating a new person a wise person (an emotionally mature person) leaves whatever baggage from prior relationships behind and extends trust to the other person. You are setting yourself up for failure if you go into every relationship with these AWALT ideas. You bias and predispose the relationship and poison it. Now I am a big believer in "Trust, but verify" a la Ronald Regan (who had an amazing marriage with his second wife, Nancy, by the way) and was as alpha as they come. If you are THAT concerned about divorce, don't get married! Problem solved.

There are many myopic things in this thread. I agree completely with @Mike32ct that this thread from the OP is about marriage. It is NOT about dating casually. Marriage is a serious commitment for both the man and the woman.

I've said before a woman's primary need is for intimacy. Her sexual response derives from that sense of chemistry, closeness, connection etc. Women are VERY different from men in this regard. Women pick up cues all day long from her mate's behavior. If his behavior is closed off, guarded (which many of you here are, and for very rational reasons), then she will feel his cues as being guarded and closed off TO HER. Over time this builds resentment. This is a barrier to intimacy and over time will create a barrier to her sexual response to her husband. There are lots of resources about this phenomena. Educate yourself. Read some.

Now some women are just plain old lazy. Don't reward such women with marriage for crying out loud. Back to vetting properly.

When you are married you must consider the needs of your partner for the marriage to succeed and flourish. That's the deal. You don't like that? You are afraid of that? No problem. Do not get married. Simple. Marriage is different than being single, it's different than dating.

what do you need a woman for?

Well children for one thing if you ever expect to have offspring, descendants, heirs, etc.

Biology is still biology and you are going to need a woman to accomplish the bearing of children. Now you may not want any. You may not want any yet. But I know of men who wish they had become fathers as they age. I know a 55 year old multimillionaire in the energy industry. He was a professional hockey player, and by his own accounts a player with women too. He has explained to me in great detail how he regrets never becoming a dad. I said, well you know, you still could if you found a younger lady, and his response was interesting. He said that he felt that at his age and facing 2 knee replacements in the near term due to the abuse from the hockey, that he wasn't interested in fatherhood and parenting and all it's demands. But he is envious of his friends who have their sons and daughters and families and grand kids surrounding them and adding meaning to their lives.

The woman you choose to bear YOUR children is in my estimation one of the most important choices a man makes in his life. Choose wisely. Vet thoroughly. Screen, screen and then screen some more. If she does not pass your screening...you need to pass on her. Period, end of story. If I were a betting person I would bet that most of the men here who are really angry about women do not screen well (or did not screen well), and also that they choose/chose to overlook or ignore signs of characteristics they do not want in a woman in favor of hotness or crazy sex or etc. There is a red pill blogger by the last name of Ironwood who discusses in great detail how to vet for a WIFE. Google him. I will be disclosing his information to my high school son soon.

You can't just blame women and rail on endlessly. Men have agency. Exercise it and never give it up. I mean it's interesting also to me that some men in this very thread are saying well marriage in 2017 is a raw deal. I've responded quite flatly, OK. Don't ever get married. Nobody said you have to. Then these same men complain about the state of affairs and lament AWALT this and AWALT that. Well if AWALT is the total reality, then use women for sex, don't get married, and enjoy yourself. And when you reach the point where that is not fulfilling to you as a man? Only then will you be ready to face the disillusionment and actually move forward.

This is a chicken or the egg type of discussion. Well you didn't give me vulnerability, so I'm not giving you sex. Well you didn't give me sex, so I'm not giving you vulnerability. Think about it, the guy, many guys, not all, have already opened themselves up by letting a woman into their world and fusing their lives to hers through relationships, marriage and children. Unless you are a train wreck of a woman, you're getting custody and even in some cases when they are, they still get custody when you divorce.

Most courts will default strongly to joint custody. My dad practiced family law for many years and I know many family law attorneys. This is the default setting in the US. The children's needs come first unless one parent or the other is so demonstrably irresponsible that the child's welfare is questionable.

Secondly the courts look to seek equity and distribute from the provider to the non-provider for the benefit of the children. The court does not care what gender the provider is. In my marriage I was the provider. That meant I had to be concerned about custody, "divorce rape" etc.

If you want to know more about being married as a red pill man, seek advice from happily married red pill men. They exist and they are out there and they are doing well. There are some here.

 

[ubercat]

BeExcellent here's a study that found when men shared the housework more equally woman felt closer to their partners and the amount of sex decreased. In short intimacy without polarity leads to blue balls.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/men-who-do-housework-have-less-sex/

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

This is one of the things some guys here do not seem to get at all. Vulnerability in a man is from a position of strength. You are choosing to be vulnerable despite the fact that someone could use it against you. You are choosing to trust the other person. Pick a woman you can trust. Don't know how to do that? Get some more life experience and/or don't get married. You don't have to. It's not required.
.

It is only vulnerability from the point of view of ego, which always seeks to protect itself and its own interests.

Love, as a force, if we actually still believe in such a thing, obliterates egos. We have the residual idea of this, and hence the desire, but so-called knowledge casts doubt on it.

Any marriage worth its salt would be built on faith and belief. Without belief, marriage may be impossible. Which goes to show, it was and is a religious institution. I doubt it will survive in a completely secularized society.

 

[ThisNThat]

But him never opening up would never kill her attraction to him.

Not sure on that one, but if this is the case...some men are just wired a certain way. Like I'm wired to express such things and to me if it kills attraction in the standard woman...chances are she isn't a good catch.

I grew up in a family that expresses opening up to each other, it's been hardwired into my personality, never to be undone...that would just compromise my "frame".

 

[Initiatedindenial]

Excellent post!

 

[Serenity]

Are you serious? It's totally different after you get married. There is no way to simulate being married. They whole idea of the relationship for many women is to get you married. Look at me, I'll give you all of the dirty, nasty sex you require, just wife me up. I'll take care of you. I'll cook for you. I'll clean for you. Oh and at the end of the day, I'll put on the little nighty and let you have your way with me. I'm a sex machine. Oh, got married. Yea, I didn't mean most of those things, it was just to get you married. Now, the courtship is over. Kids are more important. TV is more important. Social media is more important. You, you're just an after thought. Maybe, just maybe, if you do everything I want today, just the way I want it and set aside anything you want, I might have sex with you. That's not if the kids don't need me or I want to do something for myself. That's if my mother, sister, brother or anyone else doesn't call and I blow the whole night talking to them. That's not if I somehow mysteriously get tired at the end of the night. Oh you, you got mad, well that's why I never have sex with you, because you don't know how to behave. Yea, they totally act this way when you're dating them. That's how you end up married to them, they behave like spoiled little brats during the relationship and you say, "Man, I've got to have that. I can't live without the day-to-day hassle of trying to push/pull someone to the finish line that never had any real interest in me to start with." And you think to yourself, "No, that never happens, you just don't know how to sort women out." Yep, that's the problem, not these self centered modern women who are horribly oppressed by these terrible western men.

If you're so fucking scared of a woman's only goal being marriage, then tell her you'll never marry anyone. If she still stays and still behaves well after 2 years then you know she isn't with you for marriage.

Many women today are fucked up in their minds, so are many men obviously. You can't change all these people. The only thing to get around it is to stay on top of their game, test them hard and sort them. If you get burnt by a woman you are too unskilled to sort them out, it's your fucking responsibility and you are the one suffering if you neglect that.

 

[highSpeed]

If you're so fucking scared of a woman's only goal being marriage, then tell her you'll never marry anyone. If she still stays and still behaves well after 2 years then you know she isn't with you for marriage.

Many women today are fucked up in their minds, so are many men obviously. You can't change all these people. The only thing to get around it is to stay on top of their game, test them hard and sort them. If you get burnt by a woman you are too unskilled to sort them out, it's your fucking responsibility and you are the one suffering if you neglect that.

Guarantee you, women act differently after getting married. They don't stay on top of their game. It'd be like saying to a bodybuilder, "Stay at show ready level of fitness all of the time." They don't stay at show ready levels of fitness all of the time. It's human nature. You can't be at a heightened state of awareness all of the time. That being said, at least being mindful of the priority in a relationship, married or not, kids or not, is your partner. Most women simply don't care or lose focus on the man after the relationship state has been entered. It's like, "ok, got that box checked off, what else can I do?" It is truly like dealing with a little kid who never truly fully matures. This stupid notion of filter better is a child like approach to relationships. If you don't expect women to be able to have a higher level of thought to carry themselves better after they get into a relationship, then they're not worth it. How do you know if they are that type? No way to know until you know and at that point, it's a crap shoot. And that's what the modern relationship/marriage/family is, a crap shoot.

Sure, xyz car company has a quality car but at some point or another, you're going to have a vehicle that has a recall. Did you not filter your car companies better? Should you have done more research? Should you have leased? Stupid statements for child like minds like yourself.

 

[Serenity]

Guarantee you, women act differently after getting married. They don't stay on top of their game. It'd be like saying to a bodybuilder, "Stay at show ready level of fitness all of the time." They don't stay at show ready levels of fitness all of the time. It's human nature. You can't be at a heightened state of awareness all of the time. That being said, at least being mindful of the priority in a relationship, married or not, kids or not, is your partner. Most women simply don't care or lose focus on the man after the relationship state has been entered. It's like, "ok, got that box checked off, what else can I do?" It is truly like dealing with a little kid who never truly fully matures. This stupid notion of filter better is a child like approach to relationships. If you don't expect women to be able to have a higher level of thought to carry themselves better after they get into a relationship, then they're not worth it. How do you know if they are that type? No way to know until you know and at that point, it's a crap shoot. And that's what the modern relationship/marriage/family is, a crap shoot.

Sure, xyz car company has a quality car but at some point or another, you're going to have a vehicle that has a recall. Did you not filter your car companies better? Should you have done more research? Should you have leased? Stupid statements for child like minds like yourself.

You can spot these things early. They can't keep a heightened state of awareness either, their true intentions will bleed through. In all the stories I've heard about, the signs were there long before marriage. But the men just ignored it thinking it wasn't a big deal, they could have saved themselves a lot of trouble if they took it seriously.

 

[Plums]

Scheduling sex is not a good strategy for marriage sex. I know a man who is looking to find a mistress precisely as a result of scheduled sex set up for Wednesday & Saturday. He has been married 20 years and loves his wife but is deeply dissatisfied sexually. Why?

Just like you cannot negotiate desire, you cannot schedule desire either.
.

The schedule is the minimum requirement. This is the commitment. Like the commitment of going to the gym. You know that if you don't go one day because you don't feel like it, you will probably miss going again and again.
You need not feel desire to have sex. You don't always feel the desire to go to work. But you have to go. Same with scheduled sex. It is about putting your partner's needs before your own. You don't have to have full intercourse if the man isn't able to. But you should aim to satisfy your partner and she you if intercourse isn't possible for her.
Desire can come from the close contact but sometimes she will be satisfied by just being close to you.
Scheduling can become exciting if you restrict yourself to those times only.
Of course if you both like sex every day then that's your choice. The schedule is for times where your choice is not important, because it's your duty.
Your friend sounds lazy in his sexual imagination. He could role play with his wife. getting a mistress is just exciting because she is new. Role play is challenging and requires work. But is good when sex become routine.

 

[devilkingx2]

3. If women value closeness and intimacy as their primary desire as opposed to sex, then why are there so many sluts?

I've always seen it that the average/normal woman probably wouldn't fvck a guy they don't particularly like under normal circumstances (thus supporting the need for closeness and intimacy), but the women who would are what we refer to as sluts