at a crossroads..........

[The Duke]

ok back to the original topic..............got this email from my ltr.

Hi,

I just can't go on living like this anymore. We are on two totally different pages as far as what we are looking for in life. It truly saddens me that I have to leave. I just don't see any other way as long as you have your views about marriage/commitment/living arrangements/where to live/etc, and I have mine. I appreciate everything you have ever done for me. It's just not getting any better (I really thought yesterday that if I tried my hardest to put a little distance between us, it would help me not be so clingy and so pushy - honest to god that's what I was thinking and trying to do to help this situation - not to be mean or spiteful which I didn't think I was being?). But, you didn't want to give that any time as I guess you want your cake and eat it too - let me fall more and more into you, and love you deeper and deeper each day only for a maybe we'll be together and be committed, move, etc. I personally do not think that's fair to me at all. I should have known this would be the outcome last year when you looked right into my eyes and said you NEVER wanted marriage. But, I played the fool, and while I didn't show the most Faith in us or you I certainly held out and held up my hopes things would change ;-(( Things are only getting worse for us, b/c I have been going through almost a year of emotions over it all, and it started w/sadness, but the sadness is turning into anger now. If you really loved, and wanted to be w/me long-term we would be more serious by now (a year and a half into this relationship). I don't/won't be wasting another year holding onto that "Hope". I love you more than I have ever loved anyone, but I have done the shack up thing just as you have done the marriage thing. Difference for me was I saw something in you I never had quite felt before (something worth taking a risk for which I have never been willing to do!), and that was wanting more than the "shack up". But, you are content w/it, and you probably would be forever if I never had said anything about my true feelings. I'm really sorry I ever brought it up, but you have to understand (or try to at least), I was so happy, excited, and full of joy when I realized the level of love I felt for you, and yes, I got ahead of myself, but I don't feel that your heart has time-lines, and when you feel something, you let that person know (life is way too short not to!!!). People get married after a week, and some after 10 years, and I bet the 10 year waits have just if not more issues in the marriages than the week long courtships do (it's all about what's important to the two people and what's most important in their lives - not how long they wait to commit)!! I always said, and heard when you know, you just know....sucks that I know, and you still don't. That tells me we aren't right for one another which hurts the most. Bottom line is it took me a while, but I see now where I stand w/you, and how things w/you will be if I stay. That won't make me happy, and you one day caving in and marrying me, b/c it's just what I want won't make me happy either - what girl in her right mind would want to get a guy like that!!?? Not me, that's for sure -after I waited my entire adult life to feel it.

I haven't been myself for over a year now - you hurt me (not your fault, just how you feel), and when I get my feelings hurt, it never ends well). So, the only thing I can think to do is release you from this torture I am putting you through - in turn, I will stop hurting every single day having something dangling in front of me I now know I will never have.

I hurts like hell to think you would marry the type of person you did, and I'm sure you weren't w/the other girls you were with to just pass time - I'm sure you stayed w/them w/the thought of one day committing to them as well. But, I for some reason am just not good enough (?). What I have to remember is I'm not good enough for you....not every guy in the world (hard to see it now, but I know it's true)!!

I still love you, and will for a long time (you were for a while anyway MY cuteness - I just wasn't enough for you),

We've been together for 1.5yrs now and basically she is done because I'm not jumping on the marriage wagon soon enough for her wishes. I told her I would be down for marriage, just no time soon. Part of me thinks it would work with us, but the other part knows that anytime you let the female guide the ship you end up crashing like the Titanic. I just wish she would not have pushed the marriage thing.......it would have happened naturally soon enough. I am not one of these pussbags that keeps feeding a girl bs just to give her false hope.

I've always wondered why a woman will give up the best thing she ever had going just so she can be married on her terms?

Kind of sad, but I am not going to be pushed into marriage. She has a lot of great qualities but marriage is a huge risk for a man and there were a few things she needed to convince me of before I was certain enough to go down that road. Its almost like she wasn't willing to step up and proove it.

 

[betheman]

wow, she is really turning the screw!!!!
so the last year she hasnt been herself? who has she been? has she ben pretending? yes would be my answer, performing to be what she thinks you want and now its getting too much of an act!

she wants marriage itself more than you. id be cutting this one loose myself. you will have regrets and doubts but fcucck if you put a ring on that finger....then the fork in the road suddenly appears.

you are being blackmailed 100% imo. not a good basis for a marriage.

 

[5string]

OK, I'm married but despite that, there is one thing I believe, married or not.

If it has tires on it or bleeds once a month, you'll have trouble with it.

Don't get married on her terms, do it on your's.

 

[scrouds]

tl;dr

 

[Aristippus]

Howiestern said:
"anytime you let the female guide the ship you end up crashing like the Titanic"

You're 100% correct here. Man's natural role is to lead. By pressuring you to marry her, she's not giving you the space or the time you need to lead the relationship. Leading implies that the leader takes initiative to make decisions. If she's constantly applying pressure, she isn't giving you the time you need to make the decision on your own. It implies that she isn't willing to leave the decision-making up to you and is trying to lead the relationship by pulling the reigns like a jockey riding a horse.

"She has a lot of great qualities but marriage is a huge risk for a man"

There are a few points you made I'm just going to reiterate. YES. Marriage is a HUGE risk for a man. Financially and legally. Women are going to have to get with the program and start realizing this. There's little to no risk for most women. The risk lies almost entirely on the man. If the vast majority of women stood to lose financially and legally when it comes to marriage, I seriously doubt you'd see as many women pushing for it.

Once again, it goes to a pattern I've seen in many women. If it's a sacrifice they don't have to make, or if it's something they don't have to work for, or if it's money they don't have to spend, then it doesn't count. Many are only concerned with things from THEIR point of view and lack empathy when it comes to a man's blood,sweat, and tears. Once again, a symptom of lack of empathy. They only see it from their point of view. "I want to get married.".


" there were a few things she needed to convince me of before I was certain enough to go down that road. Its almost like she wasn't willing to step up and prove it."


Yes. There were probably some behaviors and attitudes she needed to correct. In this case you were willing to give her a chance because she had some good qualities. This is fine. Sometimes you find a woman with enough good qualities that it's worth it to see if you can make things work. If she has some good qualities and also some problematic behavior or attitudes, sometimes you can get her out of those bad habits. In this case these aren't behaviors that are instant deal-breakers, but could be deal-breakers if the behaviors are consistent, repeated, and long-term. It's like a pipe that leaks slowly. If you can fix the leak, then no problem. If there's a constant, non-stop drip, eventually your place gets flooded and you can't live there.

A lot of women want the marriage but they have to realize that if they have a character or behavioral flaw, they HAVE to work on themselves. Many women have the attitude that the man has to do all of the work but that they are exempt. They just deserve a good man and shouldn't have to put in any effort to get rid of their character flaws. Then what happens is when a woman like this meets a good man, yes, he sees her good qualities and sees her potential, but he notices some problems that need to be corrected and insists, either to himself or verbally to her, that these things need to be corrected first.

If she had been patient and hadn't pressured you and had been willing to work on a few aspects of her attitude and a few things with her behavior, you would have very likely married her or at least been in a committed relationship with her for many years. You had reservations because you saw some issues that needed to be worked out. Instead of working these issues out, she wanted to keep pressuring you. MARRIAGE SOLVES NOTHING!!

MARRIAGE DOES NOT FIX PROBLEMS!! At best things will simply stay the same and at worst things will only get worse. You must correct any foreseeable problems NOW, before the marriage, instead of entering a marriage with some issues that could create marital problems later. If the problems already exist and could be a deal-breaker if they continue to run their course, then you owe it to yourself and to her NOT to get married until these problems are corrected. Anyway, you did the right thing.

 

[vatoloco]

Stick a fork in it. This thing is done.

 

[The Duke]

Well its been about 2months now since I first posted, so I thought I would update.

A part of me doesn't want to post, but its something that helps me make better choices and I appreciate the advice from others who have been there before me. I also want to help others. A post "Bacchus" started prompted me to make an update.

Back in November, my girl was pushing the marriage deal pretty hard. I couldn't take it anymore so I told her she needed to move out. There were also a few other things she was doing that were disappointing. After talking with you guys and doing some research I began to see that she has some borderline personality issues and also suffers from abandonment. She doesn't have a severe case but its enough to cause issues.

I straight up told her I thought she has a little bpd and abandoment issues and needs to get help. I made my case with her and to my surprise she didn't blow up. She contacted a counselor and has had 3 visits. She's serious about it. I haven't pushed it, its been all her. The counselor says she doesn't have bpd, but has abandonment issues and she's insecure. Who knows. Alot of the things I've tried to teach her, have been repeated by the counselor. This has really made an impact.

She knows in her mind, that she needs to do this for her. She's tired of living in this personal hell and wants to resolve her issues and become a better person with skills to make better choices and live a happier life.

I've started a personal journal of when she has her flare ups and how bad they are. I am doing this so I can document progress or the lack of. If I continue to see progress I am fine. If not, then we will need to cut ties for good. I think she can overcome this and she's worth being patient for. She has a lot of great qualities that most don't have which is why I'm being patient and understanding. I'll be sure to not let this get the best of me.

The past 4weeks have been very good with us, However last night I got home from a trip and she came over. She was all stressed out for whatever reason and basically took it out on me and is mad about our new living arrangements. While I was gone, she stayed at her new place for several days. Although we've discussed the future of our relationship previously, it seems she forgot everything we talked about and her hamster wheel got the best of her. She thinks I'm punishing her by making her live at her own place. She thinks I just want her for a booty call. blah blah blah. She's feeling insecure and getting irrational. However she didn't get out of control like she has in the past.

This a.m. I get a text saying she needs to move forward one way or another and living in limbo is driving her insane. She hates waking up with out me. She is only doing this(living apart) because says she loves me and I think its what is best. She'll just have to deal with it, she made her own bed now she has to deal with the consequences. It was all brought on by her and she had plenty of warning I was going to do what I did.

 

[Bokanovsky]

99% of men are this earth are way too selfish, shallow, emotionally immature to be with a woman for the rest of their life and not start treating her like **** or wanting to be with someone else for no reason at all.

I have a friend who is thinking about getting married and I just sent her an email with this link in it...I told her she needs to get inside the head of a guy (she thinks I am crazy for never wanting to get married...I am bookmarking this site for any girl who thinks a guy is marriage material)

This post is a perfect illustration of what we men refer to when we talk about women thinking with their feelings.

 

[Bokanovsky]

Well its been about 2months now since I first posted, so I thought I would update.

A part of me doesn't want to post, but its something that helps me make better choices and I appreciate the advice from others who have been there before me. I also want to help others. A post "Bacchus" started prompted me to make an update.

Back in November, my girl was pushing the marriage deal pretty hard. I couldn't take it anymore so I told her she needed to move out. There were also a few other things she was doing that were disappointing. After talking with you guys and doing some research I began to see that she has some borderline personality issues and also suffers from abandonment. She doesn't have a severe case but its enough to cause issues.

I straight up told her I thought she has a little bpd and abandoment issues and needs to get help. I made my case with her and to my surprise she didn't blow up. She contacted a counselor and has had 3 visits. She's serious about it. I haven't pushed it, its been all her. The counselor says she doesn't have bpd, but has abandonment issues and she's insecure. Who knows. Alot of the things I've tried to teach her, have been repeated by the counselor. This has really made an impact.

She knows in her mind, that she needs to do this for her. She's tired of living in this personal hell and wants to resolve her issues and become a better person with skills to make better choices and live a happier life.

I've started a personal journal of when she has her flare ups and how bad they are. I am doing this so I can document progress or the lack of. If I continue to see progress I am fine. If not, then we will need to cut ties for good. I think she can overcome this and she's worth being patient for. She has a lot of great qualities that most don't have which is why I'm being patient and understanding. I'll be sure to not let this get the best of me.

The past 4weeks have been very good with us, However last night I got home from a trip and she came over. She was all stressed out for whatever reason and basically took it out on me and is mad about our new living arrangements. While I was gone, she stayed at her new place for several days. Although we've discussed the future of our relationship previously, it seems she forgot everything we talked about and her hamster wheel got the best of her. She thinks I'm punishing her by making her live at her own place. She thinks I just want her for a booty call. blah blah blah. She's feeling insecure and getting irrational. However she didn't get out of control like she has in the past.

This a.m. I get a text saying she needs to move forward one way or another and living in limbo is driving her insane. She hates waking up with out me. She is only doing this(living apart) because says she loves me and I think its what is best. She'll just have to deal with it, she made her own bed now she has to deal with the consequences. It was all brought on by her and she had plenty of warning I was going to do what I did.

I know that this is not what you want to hear, but there will be no happy ending to this story. You will break up one way or another, either before or after marriage (the latter, obviously, would be much more disastrous).

Try to look at it from an outside perspective. This woman is attending marriage counseling (which is basically what it is) and you are not even married yet! Hardly a good start. And don't delude yourself with the hope that counseling will somehow resolve whatever issues she may have. Counselors help people cope with their issues; they can't do much in terms of helping your resolve them. This woman is in her mid-late 30s. At that age, it's very unlikely that is capable of a profound personal transformation.

As you mentioned yourself in one of your previous posts, this woman will not be happy even if you do get married. Once she finds that she doesn't have to stress about marriage, she will find something else to be unhappy about. She will suddenly discover that the house is not big enough, or that you don't make enough money, or that the two of you don't go on vacations often enough. Bottom line, this is a dead end.

 

[Epimanes]

Marriage CAN be great. Its a learning curve though. Every man and woman has a different set of needs that makes them feel loved. IF people could identify those needs ... communicate them in a respectful way and then get to work at being pro at meeting them for each other then you would have a very happy and fulfilling marriage. Men would get the sex they need becasue women would understand that men equate sex to love (marriage builders states that the #1 need for a woman is JUST AS important as the #1 need for a man. .. and women equate conversation to love more often than not.

Women seem to think that sex is purely a physical need for men. ITS NOT (marriage builders actually teaches women that sex is not purely a physical need and shows them how meeting their husbands need for sex ENTHUSIASTICLY will actually get them what they need which is usually intimate conversation and NON sexual affection (works both ways). ITs an emotional need too ... yes we get horney and our primal instincts tell us to Fvck (this is the part that women hate about us but if htey had an abundance of testosterone in their blood as we do they would understand the physical part).. but its also the emotional connection we need to feel loved. Women of today do not often understand this. Nor do we men often understand the importance of good conversation to stir up her feelings.

This is usually how affairs start. A wife will gripe to her attractive co-worker how horrible her marriage is with her current hubby .. and the co-worker listens ... and then as she spews her guts she begins to fall in love with the co-worker because HE is meeting her need for intimate conversation (often #1 for a woman). ITS VERY DANGEROUS for married people to indulge in this kind of conversation. People think .. naaa it wont happen to me .. but if your top need is conversation and someone other than your spouse is meeting it .. you can QUICKLY fall in love and before ya know it your in an affair and you re-write your marital history to think they were never good for you the entire time. This goes for ANY of the top intimate needs being met by someone other than your spouse if your married. Of course you would have to know what your top needs are to protect your spouse from letting someone else meet them..

I could go on and on .. but most here dont want to listen to that .. so I will leave it at that.

Epi

 

[Jitterbug]

wow, she is really turning the screw!!!!
so the last year she hasnt been herself? who has she been? has she ben pretending? yes would be my answer, performing to be what she thinks you want and now its getting too much of an act!

She's doing what many women (esp the ones feeling the cold hard surface of the Wall) do: acting the part to secure marriage. Once it's secured, Howie will be in for a greaaaaat time.... Shall we say revenge for making her feel so bad all year long?

Try to see it from a third party's perspective, Howiestern. It's like an entire Red Army waving red flags while reading aloud from the Little Red Book to us.