you say "help im in love w/ friend"

[kdnash82]

I'm probably gonna get a lot of flack for this post, seeing that you're a moderator, but I really need to say this. This seems like a lot of crap layed over big words so that it sounds intelligent.

First off, men and women cannot be friends, or at least not in the way that most people perceive same sex friendship to be. Now the natural resoponse to this from a well conditioned AFC is "I have lots of female friends" or "what are you trying to say, I can't have female friends, they're all enemies?" Which of course is the standard binary (black or white, all or nothing) retort and the trained AFC thinks anyone suggesting that men and women's relations as friends could be anything less than equitable and fulfilling is just a neanderthal chauvinist thinking thawed out from cryogenic freeze in the 1950s. But you are incorrect - not because you'd want to actually be a woman's friend, but because she cannot be yours. There are fundamental differences in the ways men and women view friendship within their own sex and the ways this transfers to the concept of intergender friendship.

Quite simply there are limitations on the degree to which a friendship can develop between men and women. The easy illustration of this is that at some point your female "friend" will become intimately involved with another male; at which point the quality of what you perceived as a legitimate friendship will decay. It must decay for her intimate relationship to mature.

Maybe with your female friends. I on the other hand have had female friends that I've introduced to guys that I've met and in the end we all became friends. They had their relationship and I had mine. I could still call her whenever I needed to talk about whatever, and I could stop by her house un-announced whenever I wanted. It was no big deal. The guy knew who I was and she made it clear that I was there before he was and if things didn't work out between them, I would be there afterwards. This holds true to this day. One of the guys that I introduced my friend to ended up marrying her and having a beautiful baby girl. Our relationship is just as strong as it was before, and I feel like an uncle to her kid. Guess I'm just stuck in my AFC ways though.

Most men will only ever engage in friendships with women that they find attractive and/or interesting which of course is colored by their attraction to that woman. Now I'm sure you'll play the "not in my case" card and attempt to tell me how much an exception to the rule you are, to which I'll say, even if you legitimately are, it makes no difference. Because the very nature of an intergender friendship is ALWAYS going to be limited by sexual differences.

Only women who they find attractive or interesting? I don't really get this. What male friends would you have that you didn't find interesting? You hang out with people for a reason. You have something in common with that person whether they be same or opposite sex. Of course you're gonna find them interesting. If you didn't, they wouldn't be much of a friend, now would they? As far as attraction to a female friend, sure it happens. Is it always the case. No. You can be unattracted to a female and still be friends with them. But I guess your point here was that if it's not attraction, it's interest.

Even the best, most asexual, platonic, male-female friendships will be subject to mitigation based on sex. The easy example is that I'm sure you'd be jealous and suspect of your girlfriend were she to be spending any "quality time" with another 'male-friend'. It's simply time spent with another male who isn't you and you'll always question her desire to do so in favor of spending time with you.

Now some of this is true. People always thought that me and my friend were having sex. Never the case. Only thought of her as a sister. She was very attractive, but never once did I make a move on her. I just wasn't attracted to her. And yes, if my girl was to start hanging out with a guy friend, I would go crazy. If she was to include me, then that's a different situation. I would occasionally hang out with the guy I introduced to my friend. We had things in common. He understood where I stood with his girl, and he was comfortable with his girl being around me when he wasn't around. Again, must be that AFC creeping out of me again.

So get out of your head now that there even is a so called "friend zone" with any woman. You're either intimate with her or you're not. Women have boyfriends and girlfriends, if you're not ƒucking her, you're her girlfriend, simple as that. There is no friend zone - there is only the limbo between you being fooled that a girl is actually a friend on an equitable level to your same sex friends, and you understanding that as soon as she becomes intimate with another guy your attentions will become a liability to any relationship she might want to have with the new sexual interest and she puts you off, or you do the same when you become so involved with another girl.

Gentlemen.... If you have a female friend use it to your advantage. There is a such thing as a female friend. She will honestly be the best wing man you've ever had, and will probably give you better advice than you'd find on this site. At the same time, that's not to say that there is not any good advice to be found on this site, just be careful about which ones you use.

AFC out

 

[Ace of Flames]

I vaguely remember a statement similar to "No matter how much you think you're the exception, I'm not talking about you. Don't try to prove your case."

Something like that... I dunno.

^_^

 

[JLR]

This ties into what you've previously stated about women finding value in male friendships for the attention. Most of them are unconscious of this and so they really believe that they're being your friend.

I've have several female friends. Every so often, while being out with one of them, I'll bump into another one. Their reactions are always the same--they don't like each other. They start asking me questions about the other one and they start pointing out how there is something weird about her. Both know we're just friends, but upon meeting each other they get jealous.

After an encounter, which ever girl I was out with, will get just a bit more physical than normal. She'll laugh a little bit louder and smile a little bit more. I suspect that this is a way of covertly broadcasting to my other friend, usually a few feet away, that she had my attention and that we were having a good time. I'll reiterate, these girls are strictly friends. We have never been intimate or kissed.

This all became much clearer after I began reading sosuave. There is no such things as platonic friends. The whole idea is just another gambit of women to keep men around and raise their value.

Yep--the ways of women...:crackup: Even knowing all of this, it never ceases to amaze me...

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

I on the other hand have had female friends that I've introduced to guys that I've met and in the end we all became friends. They had their relationship and I had mine. I could still call her whenever I needed to talk about whatever, and I could stop by her house un-announced whenever I wanted. It was no big deal. The guy knew who I was and she made it clear that I was there before he was and if things didn't work out between them, I would be there afterwards. This holds true to this day.

The very fact that this seems remarkable to you only proves the point I was making. However, lets look at what you've stated here; look at what I've bolded. Would you feel the same with your male friends? Do you do the same with your male friends? As I was saying in my post, the degree to which your 'friendship' develops is mitigated by the sexual differences. If you "needed" to talk about something important, which sex seems more affirming in communication skills, male or female? We 'talk' to our female friends, we 'do' with our male friends.

More often than not men will make far greater concessions for their female friends than they will ever tolerate from their male friends. Behaviors that would royaly piss a guy off from a male friend will be much more easily excused in a female and vice versa. Behavior you and a male friend might see as normal due to the fact that you're both guys will be carefully moderated because a 'friend' is female. Again, the sexual difference mitigates the friendship.

You hang out with people for a reason. You have something in common with that person whether they be same or opposite sex.

First off lets cover the common term "hang out." This is a catch-all term many AFCs use to justify their behaviors. "Me and my girl-friends hang out together all the time, what's the big deal?" What exactly are you doing when you're hanging out? More talking perhaps? You see 'hanging out' is a nice general term, but you've got to be doing something, right? What is it that you do? Is there a difference in what you do with your same sex friends? You see if I tell my wife "Honey, I'm taking my friend Alice to church on Sunday morning" that's a whole lot different than me saying "Honey, I meeting up with Alice for drinks on Friday night," the difference is in what we're doing.

The other half of this is 'common interests'. Common interest means a mutuality of interest; in other words she's into what you are and you're into what she is. Thus if you're into heavy metal and muscle cars she must also be. If she's into painting her toenails and talking about cute boys on her bed on a Thursday night you must also be. Now that's black & white, but it comes back to what exactly it is you're doing together - as friends. You see, when two guys are into doing the same thing it's called 'common interest', but when a man and a woman enjoy the same thing it's called 'compatibility'. This of course dovetails into what I was stating about making concessions based on sex. How many guys suddenly have an epiphany about modern art because their female 'friend' does in comparison to if their male friend asked them to go along to the museum? Once again, friendship mitigated by gender differences.

 

[lighthouse1956]

I'm trying a completely different approuch, my friend is very independent and proud of it. I am breaking down that independence. She's had 2 jerks for husbands (1st died so she's careful about being too critical) 2nd was a controlling perfectionist. I'm slowly gaining her trust

 

[kdnash82]

The very fact that this seems remarkable to you only proves the point I was making. However, lets look at what you've stated here; look at what I've bolded. Would you feel the same with your male friends? Do you do the same with your male friends? As I was saying in my post, the degree to which your 'friendship' develops is mitigated by the sexual differences. If you "needed" to talk about something important, which sex seems more affirming in communication skills, male or female? We 'talk' to our female friends, we 'do' with our male friends.

Are you telling me that you only talk to your female friends? That you and your male friends don't talk? Basically, what I gather is that you sit around with your male friends and high five eachother without uttering one sentence, or maybe I'm just taking this too literally. My male friend/co-worker came into my office and we just sat here for about the first hour and a half of the morning talking about everything. At the same time, I have a female friend that took me out to a college football game. She actually enjoys the game of football. Is that the whole "do" that you're talking aboutt that I only encouter with my male friends?

More often than not men will make far greater concessions for their female friends than they will ever tolerate from their male friends. Behaviors that would royaly piss a guy off from a male friend will be much more easily excused in a female and vice versa. Behavior you and a male friend might see as normal due to the fact that you're both guys will be carefully moderated because a 'friend' is female. Again, the sexual difference mitigates the friendship.

I agree with you on this. Those men are the ones who I consider to be ball-less. Me personally, I don't take crap from anyone. I consider all sexes the same when it comes to my personal feelings and well being. Respect is something that should always be earned, and if I give you respect and don't receive the same in return then we have a problem, male or female and I will let you know about it and it will definately piss you off.

First off lets cover the common term "hang out." This is a catch-all term many AFCs use to justify their behaviors. "Me and my girl-friends hang out together all the time, what's the big deal?" What exactly are you doing when you're hanging out? More talking perhaps? You see 'hanging out' is a nice general term, but you've got to be doing something, right? What is it that you do? Is there a difference in what you do with your same sex friends? You see if I tell my wife "Honey, I'm taking my friend Alice to church on Sunday morning" that's a whole lot different than me saying "Honey, I meeting up with Alice for drinks on Friday night," the difference is in what we're doing.

You keep bringing your wife into these situations. Maybe your wife is the jealous type, then again, most women are. That's only if you give them a reason to be. I believe that in either case, church, or drinks, your wife would raise a suspicious eyebrow. "What the hell are you doing taking Alice to church?" Now on the other hand, if I was to tell my girlfriend that I was going to have a couple drinks at the bar with Alexandra after work, she wouldn't see it as a big deal, because she's met Alexandra and knows how close we are. Alex comes by the house all the time to hang out. It's something that we've done before. She understands that Alex is simply a friend.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Are you telling me that you only talk to your female friends? That you and your male friends don't talk? Basically, what I gather is that you sit around with your male friends and high five eachother without uttering one sentence, or maybe I'm just taking this too literally. My male friend/co-worker came into my office and we just sat here for about the first hour and a half of the morning talking about everything. At the same time, I have a female friend that took me out to a college football game. She actually enjoys the game of football. Is that the whole "do" that you're talking aboutt that I only encouter with my male friends?.

Well I guess you're the exception to the rule then. If you're going to fall back on binary arguments to make your case there's not a lot I can do to convince you of my point. But lets take this a step further then; here's some better scenarios to think about, lets see what you think abouth these:

SCENARIO 1
Let's assume you have a female 'friend' and you actually do things together as 'friends' besides listen to her whine about her jerk boyfriend or how lousy her childhood was on the phone all the time. She's attractive (why else would she be your 'friend'), but you're just 'good buds'. One evening she invites you over to her house after a movie or whatever it is platonic male/female friends do. You both get to talking on the couch when she gets up to go to the bathroom. 5 minutes later she comes back to the couch completely naked and says, "I've always thought you were attractive, I think it's time we got closer."

Do you A.) say "Oh, I'm sorry, but I wouldn't want to destroy our wonderful 'friendship' by getting physical with you." or B.) do what any guy with the slightest amount of testosterone in his bloodstream would do? The point being of course that when presented with exactly what a guy wants, all notion of 'friendship' blows out the window.

SCENARIO 2
You've got a girlfriend/wife who subscribes to the 'friends' idea. And you, wanting to be as progressive and supportive as possible so as not to offend her sensibilities (and keep getting laid regularly by her) make no debate about it. She has a male co-worker and former college bud who she considers a 'great friend' and regularly has lunch with the guy. To complicate matters more, he's single, goodlooking, dresses well and makes 3 times the money you do. But she insists, he's 'just a friend' and you should be mature enough to handle their 'friendship', because she is your girlfriend/wife afterall. Now, how would you feel if her 'friend' asked her to go dancing one night as 'friends'. How about a movie? Friends do that, right? Or maybe she just wants to meet her 'friend' for drinks after work to talk on a Friday. How would you feel if she and her 'friend' had to go out of town for a business convention for the weekend? Would that be different? I'm picking on the woman, but you could just as easily reverse the genders here. You should be supportive, since you of course believe that men and women can have perfectly legitimate platonic friendships, right?

Friends is a term that girls are more than too ready to use when they don't know what else to say. It's very similar to the 'Just Be Yourself' (JBY) line of thinking in that it's the standard fallback answer to deal with issues we really don't want to openly confront. So let's run down the list here again shall we? Men and women cannot be friends in the same sense that you're friends with your male friends. Before you go post the standard answer of "not me, I'm great friends with *fill in the name*" think about it this way - how many girls you call 'friends' were formerly someone you wanted to get with and rather than give you a respectful rejection she simply said " you're really sweet, but can't we just be 'friends'?" Most likely you gave her the standard reply of, "oh sure, I understand, we can be friends." Its a rejection coping method - she's simply not attracted to you and doesn't want to be perceived as a cruel so she let's you down easy with a 'friends' back out. To which you comply and begin this charade of 'friendship'.

The point is that there is always sexual tension between men and women until the intimacy issue is resolved. You can be 'friends' with the overweight girl in the back of the class, but you will tend to initiate friendships with people who you are attracted to. Don't confuse 'friends' with aquaintances or just being friendly with people. I have several female co-workers that I consider friends in the way that you just mentioned. However, I don't call them just to chat outside of work, nor do I make it a point to go see movies or whatever with them outside of work. In fact I have a very attractive girl on my staff that I go out to lunch with on work days, but I wouldn't dream of "hanging out" with her on the weekends.

My relationship with my wife dictates that she is my female interest and I would be more than a little concerned if she was trying to sell me on a 'friendship' she had with another guy on a regular basis. This isn't a jealousy or trust issue, it's basic human interaction and behavior. The fundiments of a male/female relationship rely on the 2 people being involved with each other in exclusivity. If you've got a girlfriend and you're spending regular amounts of time with another female 'friend' (or vice versa with your girlfriend and a guyfriend) you can expect some conflict either with the 'friend' or the sexual interest, particularly when the intimate one is put off in favor of the 'friend'. And most likely you won't ever be aware of this conflict.

I realize how politically incorrect this will sound to most AFCs still trapped in the belief that the more they identify with women the more unique and less like "other guys" they'll come off as, but you only make yourself more feminine in this. I'm certainly not advocating a guy cut himself off from female friends, just that the degree, motivations and conditions are always going to be subject to gender roles.

 

[Bible_Belt]

I've seen Scenario 2 referred to as 'emotional infidelity' in academic counselor-speak. "Foreplay" would be about as accurate.

My ex has 100+ myspace guy friends. She's attractive, about a 7 probably, and most of these guys she knows from grad and law school, so they tend to be on the dorky side and probably not that great with girls. She thinks men are just nicer than women, and the reality is that is very true in her case, because she has a reputation as a slvt. That makes women hate her and men flock to her.* One time I mentioned in passing and more as a tease than anything that all of those guys wanted her, and she acted like I was crazy. "What? We're just friends! They don't want me." She acted like she really believed that.

Myspace certainly perverts what we know to be true about a m/f friendship. The first part of hitting on a myspace girl is usually asking to be her "friend." Yet, in real life, none of us would walk up to a girl and ask, "will you be my friend?"

I don't think m/f friendship is completely impossible, just that it is typically a fraud. I have a couple close female friends, and I value them as a route to spill my drama to someone, which helps me stay emotionally healthy. When the 'I am trying to fvck you' game honestly goes out the window, female friends can be valuable. But with ninety-plus percent of people, their 'friendship' is just a facade for that game.


* - I watched a Beavis & Butthead episode last night where they go to a feminist convention because they think that the 'womyn' are prostitutes who give away sex for free. They are the only 'non-womyn' there. Beavis looks around and then asks, "Hey, Butthead, if these chicks do it for free, how come there aren't any guys around?"

Butthead replies, "Damnit, Beavis. We're in a room full of chicks who do it for free and all you can think about is how come there aren't more dudes around?"