Why ROUTINES are useful

[The Texas Tornado]

I have been doing natural game for 2 months for daygame and I've gotten pretty decent results (whole rack of numbers, couple dates, couple kisses/makeouts on these dates) but recently I've decided to throw a couple of routines into my game and learn the Mystery Method structure. Since I'm in Taiwan right now I haven't been able to apply any of it but I've been doing a lot of research/solo practice and it all makes a lot of sense. Here is one of their emails that a TMM instructor wrote... this is what really convinced me to learn structured game.

The Truth about "Natural Game"

I've been around pickup and dating science for longer than just about anybody. I've seen trends come and go, from creepy old guys telling you to point at your penis when you talk to hippy shamans guaranteeing that any woman can squirt, not to mention the guy who had legions of online fans based on his "new discoveries" until he was forced to admit that he was, in fact, a virgin. These things remind me of societal trends like 80's clothes and hair, oxygen water or Dungeons and Dragons 3.0: they are all bad, and they will all ruin your game.

This past weekend, I led a Love Systems bootcamp in Seattle (reviews here) and one student asked me about the latest of these fads, which he called "natural game." According to this, you don't need any of the best word-for-word scripts from the Love Systems Routines Manual, you don't need the step-by-step structure from Magic Bullets, you can just go out and be yourself and have fun and women will come to you. I told him that this is what most of us were trying to do before we discovered dating science, that it didn't work back then, and that it sure as heck won't help new people get better now.

We teach a step-by-step approach (the innovative Emotional Progression Model from Magic Bullets). When you have large, complex problems like "see that beautiful woman over there; get her into bed (or make her my girlfriend)," it's really helpful to break it down into specific tasks that come one after another. First you do X, until Y happens, and then you do Z. There are only 6 steps, and only a few combinations within each, but it has simplified the lives of thousands of men worldwide and it works. And "being yourself" doesn't help if you draw a mental blank or run out of things to say. Sure it's easy to tell someone just to make conversation when he runs out of things to say, but when you're talking to a Playboy Playmate lookalike and her friends are trying to drag her away and she's looking at you expectantly to see if there's anything more to you than a well-delivered opening line... you have to have stuff ready to go. And it has to be good.

That's why Savoy and The Don created the Love Systems Routines Manual with hundreds of word-for-word scripts that the top guys in the world actually use, day in, day out. Why try to use stuff that didn't work in the past when there is proven material that has worked time and time again to guide you?

In general, any fad that promises an easy path without putting in the work sounds - and is - too good to be true. Does this mean being "natural" is bad or impossible? Of course not. If you see The Mystery Method bootcamp graduates out socially, they will look very relaxed and natural. But that's because they've done the work to get there.

Let me explain, with reference to an all-American metaphor: baseball.

A professional baseball player can step up to the plate, stare at the pitcher, and then, with perfection and apparent ease, hit the ball perfectly for a home run. Let's say you are brand new to the sport of baseball. Perhaps you have never even stepped up to bat before - but you really want to learn and you spend the money and get the opportunity to train with this professional baseball player. The first thing you ask him is "How do I hit a home run?" and he explains that the best way to hit a home run is not to think about it. You need to just feel when the timing is right to hit the ball. Your mind and soul should be on autopilot, you should be one with your true self and then hitting the home run will come naturally to you.

Is he lying to you? No. That is the way he hits a home run every time. But will that advice ever help you hit a home run? Not one darn bit. What has happened is this professional player has completely forgotten about all the years he has spent playing baseball. He forgot about the thousands of times he has been up to bat before. He forgot entirely about his learning process that has allowed him to become the natural baseball player who can effortlessly hit home runs.

It is no different with meeting and attracting women. If you haven't had all of the success you want, going out and "being natural" isn't going to help, no matter how many eBooks you read.

Natural game is simply how men act when they are ALREADY good with women.

You learn natural game by going out and practicing, as much as possible, for as long as possible. You practice with the best tools available - the structure and formula from Magic Bullets, the word-for-word scripts from the Love Systems Routines Manual, and the advanced deep drills from Seductioninfo.com (with over 4 hours of free audio). Natural game is learned by doing a thousand approaches and then going out and doing a thousand more. It comes from hard work, a good attitude, patterns of success and a willingness to push through some failure. It comes from making good friends who will push you, attending bootcamps and seminars and then going out and doing all of it all over again. If you do that I guarantee that you will have natural game.

People who all of a sudden "discover" natural game actually reveal more about their own dating science skills and development than they do about how to teach others. All it means is that they have gotten good enough with the basic structure and with routines that they are now able to take the training wheels off. They discover that now that they have internalized the right behaviors and intuitions from having worked with a Magic Bullets-type structure and Routines Manual-type routines that they don't need to slavishly follow the model anymore and can improvise.

Well, of course.

When you see me out with friends like Tenmagnet or The Don or Savoy, we're improvising, taking advantage of possible shortcuts (I think Savoy and Brad P. even recorded an interview on taking chances), and so on. That's because we're good enough to be able to "feel" the game and be "natural," like the baseball player in this analogy. But there's no way that we would have gotten this good if we hadn't had resources like the type of information that eventually found its way into Magic Bullets and the Love Systems Routines Manual and the advanced interview series. And there's no way we'd teach without them. And whenever something goes wrong, we go straight back to the basics to troubleshoot.

There is a world of difference between being good with women and being able to teach others how to be good with women. Being able to pick up is necessary to being a good teacher, but it's not enough. That's why I've always been suspicious of guys who proclaim themselves to be gurus. If they were really gurus who could change other peoples' lives, there'd be armies of men using their system to great results. Like our network of instructors around the world, from 5'2 to 6'4, from 110lbs to 250lbs, from Europe to North America to Latin America to Asia to Australia. We all use roughly the same system, because it works.

The best way to learn natural game is to do the work necessary to get there. To make the most progress in the least amount of time, it is best to do the training and the exercises that teach you natural game. Those are following the program: scripted material, canned openers, and proven attraction routines. These are time-tested, proven methods that have transformed thousands of Average Frustrated Chumps (AFCs), myself included, into real-world pick up artists and the new "naturals."

Another error in the natural game theory, and it applies equally to our pro baseball player and to our pickup artist, is that natural game only happens when your mind and body are in state. What happens when you are nervous, tired, had a bad day at work, dog died or Marvel kills off Captain America? You aren't in the mood to be instantly clever and charming right off the top of your head. But you sure as hell can pull out the Love Systems Routines Manual, read a couple of scripts, and then go approach. Every single time.

The few guys I know who are teaching natural game got there only after doing years of field work. Natural game comes from doing the field work. And the best way to learn the field work is to follow the system. Once you have it, natural game is a lot more fun and a lot easier in my opinion; but it is anything but natural.

Basically the gist of it is that by learning the structure, you eventually internalize the principles and BECOME natural. For people who've never had success with women you can't just tell them to be themselves and be confident because it hasn't worked for them. This advice would work for people who already have an intuitive understanding of how women work and how to pick them up but for somebody like myself who spent a lot of my early years with very little female interaction, a structured model is very useful. I'd like to hear what you guys have to say on the matter.

 

[daygameguy]

agreed.

 

[moto]

any links to a good structural method? MM?

 

[Quiksilver]

I use routines and some canned stories, and see no problem with them. In fact I'd call somebody a hypocrite who does..

Having a few good stories to tell about your past, and working out what works FOR YOU in the field is great, and you can keep reusing it because, simply it works.

The problem arises when you use someone else's routines/lines/stories.. When you use someone else's ****, it means you're not an interesting person and are being fake to the point of being a loser.

So yeah, come up with your own material/routines/stories and ride them till they stop working.

 

[kebman]

Don't get me wrong. MM works. No doubt about it. It is what got me hooked in the first place. I tested it, and found that it actually attracted women. On the other hand, I felt like a fraud. That's why I threw it away even before my first month of PU and went on to do much more direct game.

Call me an arrogant prick, but I didn't want to get the girls because of Mystery or some routine. I wanted to get the women because of ME. I didn't want to play somebody else, or fake DHV's to make myself attractive. I wanted to BE attractive - in short, I wanted to BE the DHV.

Further more, all the "reading of signs" (IOI's, etc) and back-checking to try to figure out how far I was in the process/system to use magical routine X just got me inside my own head. If it did anything, it made me look like an awkward idiot. So I ended up having to un-learn all that stuff to get to the core of myself. And instead I delved deeper into the stuff of GWM and Zan - into freedom and the things that could truly make me a true Don Juan, instead of a freak (Mystery).

Yeah, I learned to ride the bike without the training wheels in the first place, but boy is it worth it!

What helped me? Approaching and escalating did. You don't need routines to talk off the top of your head (vibe) while escalating kino. That's what helped me. Sure, I made a lot of errors, but most of them auto-corrected when I got out in the field.

The NUMBER ONE thing that made a difference, was getting into the field, approaching - no matter what.

Learning...

• ...that state doesn't matter, 'cause it comes naturally when you approach anyway.
• ...that IOI's are BS, since she loves you as long as she listens to your crap and let you run kino on her.
• ...it really doesn't matter what you open with, as long as you come from a positive and fun-loving frame. Heck, even compliments work (if they are genuine)!
• ...that you should stay unreactive to whatever a girl or some AMOG may throw at you.
• ...to accept yourself while at the same time being bold an genuine - and honest to an extreme degree.
• ...how to have fun no matter what, and drag the girls into your reality.
• ...how to keep a conversation going (vibing) with absolutely NOTHING to help you.
• ...that you should go for close (or get rejected) - always! Or else you won't learn anything.
• ...that it's better to try to kiss her too soon, than too late, and that if you think about kissing her - you should.
• ...the hard way how to get really outcome independent and really love all women.

And... getting results. Numbers. Kisses... The much needed Fcloses. And lastly being totally open and honest about my desire for MLTR's with great success.

As long as you go out and go for close, you will learn to know the game by heart. Great books that helped me on my way, was Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill, How to Make Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie, and The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle, and of course the help from my friends from forums like this. I also read stuff on sales psychology, like Influence by Cialdini, and stuff on evolution.

Now, there's nothing wrong with systems and routines. They are nice as funny little gambits or jokes - as spice. It's just that it's so liberating to not be dependant on them.

When you find out how, "being yourself" (aka being "natural", or at least genuine about your desire) is truly the best way.

 

[The Texas Tornado]

kebman, i'm REALLY glad you said that. i've thought a lot about that stuff and it's been considered in my decision to go "unnatural" for a while.

the first thing i want to say is that it's pretty much impossible to get laid purely with someone else's personality/routines. you can't just spit routine after routine and end up with the girl in your bed, it doesn't work like that. people bust their azzes to get good at MM because you have to be CONGRUENT with what you say. most of the time spent in the conversation will be fluff, and stuff you think of in the moment... thus even with MM most of the pickup will be your own work. this is why routines are helpful, because they help you internalize the principles of communicating in an attractive way. most MM lays , and lays in general, will at least take a couple hours provided the girl isn't intoxicated/desperate, and nobody really memorizes HOURS of material. if you get a lay with MM, it's YOUR win

regarding the list, that's all good really good sh1t... i've been working on all that too. but the thing is unless you're born with a naturally very sharp wit, sometimes despite having all those qualities you just draw a mental blank sometimes and don't know what to say/how to start a conversation. for most people no matter how comfortable/confident you are, if you draw a mental blank in the first minute with a girl and have an awkward silence (which is quite possible no matter how confidnet you feel inside) you are pretty much fvcked... thus the natural method would definitely be good for people who are extremely quick witted. but for people who are quieter, it is more difficult. this isn't to say that quiet people can't become huge players, but this takes a VERY advanced level of body language, subcommunication, and ROCK SOLID inner game which is likely built from years of success. most quiet guys who aren't that quick witted wont' do that well with just going in field and saying what's on their mind. they would do better in social circle situations in which girls will have more exposure to them and constantly be attracted to their personalities but in cold approach situations it will be more difficult.

like i said in my post i went out a LOT for a month and was pretty much all natural but sometimes i was tired/ in a bad mood/ straight up just had nothing to say at the moment and had to resort to asking chodey questions. don't get me wrong i got a LOT better at vibing and i got some success... it was a very useful month and i pretty much just went in sets with NOTHING in my head except one direct opener. The idea was to gain the ability to have a conversation with a stranger without canned material. However the thing about PURELY natural game (i at least had a pretty standard opener that i used every time... "you're cute and i thought i'd come over and say hi") it can be difficult and mentally exhausting to think of something new and creative every time you want to open a set and think of interesting sh1t to say... for example if a girl is walking real fast past you down the street and you're daydreaming about some other sh1t, despite what you may think of NOW it is really hard to be spontaneous and natural in that moment.

also there ARE general guidelines (which although sometimes success is achieved in spite of) that will improve someone's success with women. i fvcked up so many opportunities last year... girls who were attracted to me but with whom i contacted too much/didnt' contact enough, didn't handle my logistics right, etc...

If you already have a general understanding of how to get girls and have had enough success in the past I can see how the natural route would be beneficial but structured game/routines are extremely useful in learning game.

 

[kebman]

That's probably the thing. How could you be genuine when you used the same line for all the women?

It's only mentally exhaustive if you look for something to say, because you think you need to say something interresting. That's what I'm talking about when you start to back-check what you say because you need it to have a certain effect on the girl, else you won't get laid - a thing that is in essence needy and outcome dependent.

The fact is that you don't have to say anything interresting at all. The first thing that comes to your head is probably much better and fun. If you can handle the social pressure that comes off that, it's a giant DHV. The same goes for awkward silences. It's only awkward if you make it so. Instead I use such situations to push social pressure back on the girl - for instance by smiling to her, and expecting her to talk for a change.

IMHO your problem is that you want to impress her, instead of just being interresting. This is one of the best things Johnny Soporno teaches. If you stop trying so hard to impress her, and just stay interresting, you pose much more of a challenge, while keeping her into you. You want her too much to like you, so you hope that first thing will just blow her out of the water, when it is in fact your staying power that will truly hook her.

The best tip I ever got when it comes to women, is to stop thinking. If you "come from nothing" your brain will not be clogged down by other processes (like queries about what to say next), and it will effortlessly deliver you nugget after nugget when ever you need it.

Try this experiment: Ask yourself "What is my next thought?" And then try to predict the next thing you're going to think. Probably your brain will just not know what to answer and turn dead silent on you, because how CAN you know without also being prescient? It's the same thing that happens when you ask your brain to come up with the perfect thing. It starts working - hard - to find out your question. And in the mean time, you just have to be content with the silence. So don't fight this tendency. Just accept the silence (enjoy it even, since you can use it to your advantage), and know that your brain will effortlessly deliver you nugget after nugget when it's ready.

Most of the time, I don't even remember what I open the girl with. We just share a great moment together, which I capitalize mercilessly on by escalating kino on her. Soon enough we kiss, and I take her home (well, or at least try to ). Escalating is in fact one of the few truly conscious things I still do while picking up girls. The rest is all about not thinking, making my own fun, and being in the moment.

 

[The Texas Tornado]

That's awesome that it works for you... but honestly to be truly natural and succeed for many people it takes work to get there and routines are one method. Since you are successful with women I really doubt that you open and have boring, AFC style conversations with girls. You have reached the point where you are able to approach women and effortlessly have fun conversations... reading reports by Snow Plowman emphasizes this point. He approaches naturally and has funny things to say but this is because he is witty. I def see what you are saying but what you say DOES matter to some extent. Not as much as HOW you say it, as you emphasized, but it STILL MATTERS. For example, let's say you are in a loud nightclub. If you approach a girl and the first things you think of are asking what her name is, where she goes to school, how old she is, etc, no matter how much belief you have in those words you are likely going to get blown out.

I definitely feel you on the point about reaction seeking though. It's something I thought about a lot before deciding to go TMM. But I decided in the end that the main goal of me using this routine was to eventually become natural, and to do so through using the routines as training wheels to learn the principles of game. This is a valid point though and something I will have to think about more.

As far as genuineness goes, yes you will be saying some of the same lines but you will also be improvising a lot. Honestly everybody has their own lines that they same to all women... the same stories they tell to everybody, the same opening lines etc.