Hello Friend,

If this is your first visit to SoSuave, I would advise you to START HERE.

It will be the most efficient use of your time.

And you will learn everything you need to know to become a huge success with women.

Thank you for visiting and have a great day!

Why Red Pill is Important

Jager

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No worse crime has ever been committed upon mankind than convincing him he was powerless.

Convincing him that he was powerless against the “power” of women, that he shouldn’t break out and be whoever he chooses to be. Convincing a man he shouldn’t be aggressive in any way, to suppress that which makes him male.

Taking the red pill is about education. It’s about finally being able to look at this world for what it really is. For thousands of years men, and women for that matter (feminism is among the most destructive ventures this planet has ever seen), have been led astray by individuals seeking power over their mind and their life. A dominion over mankind.

Women have been taught that her “girl power” is more important than everyone else. Women are damaged goods after her mid-twenties because she has destroyed the lives of the men she’s conquered. The examples of it are all over this forum. “Just got divorced, and she took everything”, “She broke up with me, what do I do now?” The list goes on.

Here’s a recap of my interactions with women, since taking the red pill. The women are sweeter, more centered, more feminine. I haven’t had a problem with women since. But, the second I think about long term relationship and marriage it all hits the fan again. They become cold and distant, because she has what she wanted, had her fun, and no longer cares, anymore. This is a description of how my mindset shifted back and forth during my discovery.

The Red Pill has never been about hating on women. Not for me. This is an ongoing journey of the rediscovery of what it is to be male. I’ve accepted that I don’t give a sh!t about the games a woman plays. She won’t be getting anything I worked for, anything I have. She’s not evil, she’s being female. Women, down to the cellular level, are about reproduction and the acquiring of physical resources and the raising of her offspring until they can think and fend for themselves. That is her purpose. That is why her gender exists. She will do whatever it takes to get those things. Let the cucks give it to her. Society needs all types of men to operate.

Men have been taught that they shouldn’t be men. “It’s bad to be aggressive!” “Why are you so mean, sometimes?” Because he saw through your games and isn’t having it. A man’s purpose is totally different. Men are destined to build, grow, lead. Our purpose as men is to make sure this world survives. That’s why we have morals, ethics, and why we’re able to make connections with people. It’s why we give a sh!t. It’s why we have to have vision, goals, hunger, ambition. These are traits a woman will never possess. She is incapable of it, because her gender was never meant to operate like that. It’s not her purpose. She is for breeding, literally, and she’s happier and truly feminine when she is doing what her biology is designed to do, without having to destroy men in the process!

The Red Pill is the awakening of a man to the real world. My responsibility is to make sure our species continues to exist. I’ve been angry on the forums, as of late, because there are members on here who refuse to see the light, who refuse to see this world for what it is. It’s nothing against you guys. I’m p!ssed off because I’m trying to help you, trying to help you contribute to yourself and our civilization, but it falls on deaf ears and justification.

The Red Pill, the revival of masculinity and sanity. It’s the only way, that I can see, for society to start becoming more stable and saner. I will continue to do what I’m doing, even if I get dragged over the coals for doing it.
 
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oldmanofthesea

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Here’s a recap of my interactions with women, since taking the red pill. The women are sweeter, more centered, more feminine. I haven’t had a problem with women since. But, the second I think about long term relationships and marriage it all hits the fan again. They become cold and distant, because she has what she wanted, had her fun, and no longer cares, anymore.
This is somewhat contradictory. You say you haven't had a problem with women since, but then go on to say you are getting dumped consistently. How long are you dating these women before you start thinking about LTRs and marriage? Do you think your desire for LTRs and marriage is manifesting itself in a healthy or unhealthy way? Is it possible your wants or needs in a relationship are unhealthy? Are you willing to evaluate whether you have any blame in what is happening, or are you certain it's all due to women's nature?
 

Jager

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This is somewhat contradictory. You say you haven't had a problem with women since, but then go on to say you are getting dumped consistently. How long are you dating these women before you start thinking about LTRs and marriage? Do you think your desire for LTRs and marriage is manifesting itself in a healthy or unhealthy way? Is it possible your wants or needs in a relationship are unhealthy? Are you willing to evaluate whether you have any blame in what is happening, or are you certain it's all due to women's nature?

I’ll reiterate - I will continue to do what I’m doing, even if I catch flak, even if other people try to pull me back into the Blue Pill universe.

This world is not as it seems, and most people are scared to face that.
 
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EyeOnThePrize

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How long are you dating these women before you start thinking about LTRs and marriage? Do you think your desire for LTRs and marriage is manifesting itself in a healthy or unhealthy way?
this is exactly what i've been realizing recently. that my wanting a relationship was coming from a regression of emotional and spiritual growth. when in a LTR the thoughts that come from thinking about marriage are childish and my actions become irresponsible as though my partner is my new mother. i've never had as much clarity into my own behavior, and i'm completely 100% responsible for what happens to me and how i feel. just owning that is enough to feel calm and collected rather than manipulated and salty.
 

DEEZEDBRAH

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this is exactly what i've been realizing recently. that my wanting a relationship was coming from a regression of emotional and spiritual growth. when in a LTR the thoughts that come from thinking about marriage are childish and my actions become irresponsible as though my partner is my new mother. i've never had as much clarity into my own behavior, and i'm completely 100% responsible for what happens to me and how i feel. just owning that is enough to feel calm and collected rather than manipulated and salty.
Read some Freud and Jung. You sound like a man who is aware or has grown awareness. Its not your fault. I hears rsd Tyler define us as permeable membranes. We're conditioned by the primary social order, around girl power, male sacrifice, and homage to the feminine. Its retarded. Its also telling what married men say about the sex life. I can do much better as a bachelor on a dryspell.
I’ll reiterate - I will continue to do what I’m doing, even if I catch flak, even if other people try to pull me back into the Blue Pill universe.

This world is not as it seems, and most people are scared to face that.
Red pill is legit but, what a bunch of guys have hijacked it 'to be' is a circke jerk narrating about the problem and in home fighting amongst each other + not pulling/getting laid. Who at 21 con or rmg is out pulling regularly? This isn't a shame tactic. Its just seeking the best ROI of my time. Its why i always preferred pickup. Actually going out and getting baeeeees rather than holding hands and talking about feelers like RMG.

What the Matrix pointed to in red pill vs blue pull, going back to sleep, being asleep at the wheel is the realest ****. The state of masculinity is infuriating. Either most guys are asleep at the wheel, playing house with single mother victimhood and or the wall following her reign of terror on the carousel. A lot of men are cuck or incels. Others are beta providers. You got incels and mgtow, guys checked out. There's TRP who see it but, I don't see a solution. I see more delusional married TRP, cause divorce rape is a figment of the imagination until the end hits. It is retarded. 1 rmg guy married a woman who cucked him. He then wants to. Pedal patriarchy and head of the household lulz.

I fo think the majority are pissed and wanting to help men but are seeking to tap the market for resources. Everyone has a agenda. Its better than the **** hole mainstream advice on dating.

I don't know anybody who pulls on the regular let alone at all in TRP. Can anybody say whether or not, anybody pulled at 21? I'd wager not from cold approach or at all.
 

EyeOnThePrize

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Your post is rife with salt. Why not mention the ideal or any examples of it? You are looking at the majority and furious that they are the majority? The majority have a sub 100 IQ, that's just the way it is. Why not be the example of something better? Or at least talk about it or how to become it?
 

Jager

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Your post is rife with salt. Why not mention the ideal or any examples of it? You are looking at the majority and furious that they are the majority? The majority have a sub 100 IQ, that's just the way it is. Why not be the example of something better? Or at least talk about it or how to become it?
I have in subsequent posts and comments. Go back and read those.
 

Epic Days

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Why not mention the ideal or any examples of it?
The ideal for the biology we have is trekking across the tundra with the tribe and other tribes in search of mammoth to slay.

How that translates is really up to you. First, you have an uphill battle to circumvent and rewrite the prevalent social programming. So I suggest this...

Self realization and individuality first. You, changing you and how you think.

Understand that feminism isn't new and was started by the Communist Bolsheviks in Russia. Understand that the forces applied to society in the form of communism are very powerful. Never, ever vote for a democrat or a leftist again. (just in case you have)

Do not participate. Do it silently or do it vocally. Your choice. You don't go buy stupid products and you do not buy them for women. You do not get married or have an LTR where your buying power is squandered by females. Enjoy them all you want. Love them all you want. But do not participate in the distribution of your wealth to the squandering habits of women. One more thing...NEVER, EVER sleep with a fat woman again. I've never done it and still refuse to. We don't go to women they have to come up to meet our standards.

Despite the fact that I have made over six figures for quite some time, I know that by being taxed before I get my money is a dead end. Find a way to get your money before it is taxed. Buy solid investments. Land, property, houses, etc. Solid property. Or even something of coveted value that you can hold in your hand. Debt, wrecks your life. Use it only to buy something that you are going to sell for more than you paid for it. Realize that a 401K is a brutal scam and steals your wealth. Use it only if you are getting matching funds and make it a ROTH. (after tax)

Do not be an impulsive buyer. Work on it.

If you want children, make a business arrangement. I would suggest a surrogate mother. You get to pick her genetics.

All of this will put severe survival pressure on women. SEVERE. Women are mold-able and will adapt. They have a herd mentality. Cucks need to become extremely valuable to women. If you want wife, kids, house with white picket fence...it needs to be a deal. You leave or cheat? You get nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Now, if you want a solution to have a wife and somehow circumvent their biology within the context of the modern paradigm? I can't help you and you are asking others to solve this problem for you. A solution to a complete leftist social order is no small task. Because they are Necromongers. If they cant convert you, they will kill you.
 
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Jager

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The ideal for the biology we have is trekking across the tundra with the tribe an other tribes in search of mammoth to slay.

How that translates is really up to you. First, you have an uphill battle to circumvent and rewrite the prevalent social programming. So I suggest this...

Self realization and individuality first. You, changing you and how you think.

Understand that feminism isn't new and was started by the Communist Bolsheviks in Russia. Understand that the forces applied to society in the form of communism are very powerful. Never, ever vote for a democrat or a leftist again. (just in case you have)

Do not participate. Do it silently or do it vocally. Your choice. You don't go buy stupid products and you do not buy them for women. You do not get married or have an LTR where your buying power is squandered by females. Enjoy them all you want. Love them all you want. But do not participate in the distribution of your wealth to the squandering habits of women. One more thing...NEVER, EVER sleep with a fat woman again. I've never done it and still refuse to. We don't go to women they have to come up to meet our standards.

Despite the fact that I have made over six figures for quite some time, I know that by being taxed before I get my money is a dead end. Find a way to get your money before it is taxed. Buy solid investments. Land, property, houses, etc. Solid property. Or even something of coveted value that you can hold in your hand. Debt, wrecks your life. Use it only to buy something that you are going to sell for more than you paid for it. Realize that a 401K is a brutal scam and steals your wealth. Use it only if you are getting matching funds and make it a ROTH. (after tax)

Do not be an impulsive buyer. Work on it.

If you want children, make a business arrangement. I would suggest a surrogate mother. You get to pick her genetics.

All of this will put severe survival pressure on women. SEVERE. Women are mold-able and will adapt. They have a herd mentality. Cucks need to become extremely valuable to women. If you want wife, kids, house with white picket fence...it needs to be a deal. You leave or cheat? You get nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Now, if you want a solution to have a wife and somehow circumvent their biology within the context of the modern paradigm? I can't help you and you are asking others to solve this problem for you. A solution to a complete leftist social order is no small task. Because they are Necromongers. If they cant convert you, they will kill you.
There is no circumventing her biology. Not in my world, anyway. Why even play her game? Given the laws and social garbage, marriage or LTR, period, plays right into the feminine imperative, regardless. The whole thing is set up for suppression. In the immortal words of Admiral Ackbar - It’s a trap!
 

Epic Days

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There is no circumventing her biology. Not in my world, anyway. Why even play her game? Given the laws and social garbage, marriage or LTR, period, plays right into the feminine imperative, regardless. The whole thing is set up for suppression. In the immortal words of Admiral Ackbar - It’s a trap!
Indeed. Which is why I don't recommend it.
 

EyeOnThePrize

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If you want children, make a business arrangement. I would suggest a surrogate mother. You get to pick her genetics.
My only problem with this is I would want my children to know what a healthy partnership is supposed to look like. Children define what love is between two people by watching their parents interact. I get that it's not a perfect world and most relationships are not good ideals for children to emulate, but I see no problem with striving to have one.

I really like what you say, but slight compromise is necessary for any relationship to work, romantic or otherwise. I think even Rollo said compromising for the benefit of starting a family is a very noble thing to do since it's basically a massive sacrifice of choice and freedom for the man. Now that I'm thinking about it we can say that long term thinking (which seems to be associated with an alpha mentality) would dictate starting a family as soon as possible and having as many children as possible to 'expand the empire' and have the utility of children and their skills once they come of age, not to mention fulfilling the primitive urge of passing on genes. Maybe I'm bull****ting myself and it's quality over quantity.

Thinking this stuff right now is making me want to reach out to the ex since she tried to trick me into having kids. Not sure if that means it's cuck scarcity thinking or lack of balls to commit thinking. Probably the former since I always thought I could do better.
 

Jager

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My only problem with this is I would want my children to know what a healthy partnership is supposed to look like. Children define what love is between two people by watching their parents interact. I get that it's not a perfect world and most relationships are not good ideals for children to emulate, but I see no problem with striving to have one.

I really like what you say, but slight compromise is necessary for any relationship to work, romantic or otherwise. I think even Rollo said compromising for the benefit of starting a family is a very noble thing to do since it's basically a massive sacrifice of choice and freedom for the man. Now that I'm thinking about it we can say that long term thinking (which seems to be associated with an alpha mentality) would dictate starting a family as soon as possible and having as many children as possible to 'expand the empire' and have the utility of children and their skills once they come of age, not to mention fulfilling the primitive urge of passing on genes. Maybe I'm bull****ting myself and it's quality over quantity.

Thinking this stuff right now is making me want to reach out to the ex since she tried to trick me into having kids. Not sure if that means it's cuck scarcity thinking or lack of balls to commit thinking. Probably the former since I always thought I could do better.
He also admitted that he was less alpha by being married, because of that compromise.
 

DEEZEDBRAH

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The ideal for the biology we have is trekking across the tundra with the tribe and other tribes in search of mammoth to slay.

How that translates is really up to you. First, you have an uphill battle to circumvent and rewrite the prevalent social programming. So I suggest this...

Self realization and individuality first. You, changing you and how you think.

Understand that feminism isn't new and was started by the Communist Bolsheviks in Russia. Understand that the forces applied to society in the form of communism are very powerful. Never, ever vote for a democrat or a leftist again. (just in case you have)

Do not participate. Do it silently or do it vocally. Your choice. You don't go buy stupid products and you do not buy them for women. You do not get married or have an LTR where your buying power is squandered by females. Enjoy them all you want. Love them all you want. But do not participate in the distribution of your wealth to the squandering habits of women. One more thing...NEVER, EVER sleep with a fat woman again. I've never done it and still refuse to. We don't go to women they have to come up to meet our standards.

Despite the fact that I have made over six figures for quite some time, I know that by being taxed before I get my money is a dead end. Find a way to get your money before it is taxed. Buy solid investments. Land, property, houses, etc. Solid property. Or even something of coveted value that you can hold in your hand. Debt, wrecks your life. Use it only to buy something that you are going to sell for more than you paid for it. Realize that a 401K is a brutal scam and steals your wealth. Use it only if you are getting matching funds and make it a ROTH. (after tax)

Do not be an impulsive buyer. Work on it.

If you want children, make a business arrangement. I would suggest a surrogate mother. You get to pick her genetics.

All of this will put severe survival pressure on women. SEVERE. Women are mold-able and will adapt. They have a herd mentality. Cucks need to become extremely valuable to women. If you want wife, kids, house with white picket fence...it needs to be a deal. You leave or cheat? You get nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Now, if you want a solution to have a wife and somehow circumvent their biology within the context of the modern paradigm? I can't help you and you are asking others to solve this problem for you. A solution to a complete leftist social order is no small task. Because they are Necromongers. If they cant convert you, they will kill you.
I'm a modern day batman up in this *****.

With doxing, demonetisation, and firing in corporate America, UK, men need to be cautious. I don't talk about red pill awareness and women. I don't flaunt game on the world at work. It definitely is portrayed and the culture is disrupted in a subtle way. I am cognizant with the fact that it at anytime can go tits up.

Men need to divide oneself from the norm. Solitude does it for me. I don't share my knowledge and wisdoms at work. If pressed on being single at 30, i say i haven't found the one but one day.



I then go hit on barely legal top form SMV.



Men need to be smart. There's a different way i am at work with employees and the intern lol.

Modern day batman ftw!
 

Victory Unlimited

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Yo Troops!

I've had eyes on this "manosphere" space for quite awhile now---LONG before they started calling it that. And also long before marketers co-opted that Keanu Reeves movie "The Matrix" (that, by the way, "co-opted" the Red Pill/Blue Pill"concept from Alice in Wonderland) too.

I've seen the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly manifest itself in multiple ways in the lives of many men (and some were even my personal friends). Now, I don't think that there's anything wrong with embracing concepts about masculinity that are true AND are intended to be targeted for the use of making men's lives better.

However, what I've noticed happening in recent years is a HELL OF A LOT of guys out here starting to take this Red Pill, Blue Pill, Pink Pill, White Pill stuff FAR too seriously---to the point that they can't even engage in a REAL conversation about male/female relationship dynamics with folks in the real world WITHOUT parroting and/or vomiting up "Matrix/Alpha Male" jargon---which makes them come across as being "out-of-touch" with whoever they're trying to relay information to.

In other words, nerding it up TOO MUCH, winds up FUKKING it up---most times.

Another thing I've seen emerge is an ever-growing list of fake-ass, wanna-be, "Alphas" running around in packs with other "self-proclaimed" alphas---with ALL OF THEM each claiming to be "the" Alpha of the whole group...lol This is also something that totally erases any kind of credibility they may have when it comes to getting across their supposed messages of male enlightenment, male self-improvement, and/or male wealth/assets self-protection.

Why "is" this?

It's because there's a difference between taking inspiration from a Hollywood movie and using it as a template to build a clever, male-self-help philosophy----and actually falling prey to going so far over-the-top with it that some have turned "Red Pill Philosophy" into it's own twisted, short-sighted form of RELIGION.

Mission #57 - Objective: The Great Red Pill War!

I've spent many years helping guys "snap out of it" and then reprogram their mindsets to escape the Red Pill Matrix so that their concept of masculinity can then become one that they can actually develop within themselves---instead of just one that they feel forced to "subscribe" to because a bunch of "Self-Proclaimed Alpha" guys on the Internet "told them to".

The Hardcore Truth is this:

A man shouldn't pledge allegiance to any flag---simply because somebody decides to offer it or wave it. Though I do believe that Manhood should ALWAYS consist of the embracing certain, very-specific core values. I also believe that a more intuitive, nuanced, and strategic approach to displaying that manhood---is just as important.

...which is a concept that I've noticed that the some of the more "devout" followers of the "Red Pill Philosophy" don't seem to be able to so freely embrace.


RESPECT.


V.U.
 

Spaz

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Yo Troops!

I've had eyes on this "manosphere" space for quite awhile now---LONG before they started calling it that. And also long before marketers co-opted that Keanu Reeves movie "The Matrix" (that, by the way, "co-opted" the Red Pill/Blue Pill"concept from Alice in Wonderland) too.

I've seen the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly manifest itself in multiple ways in the lives of many men (and some were even my personal friends). Now, I don't think that there's anything wrong with embracing concepts about masculinity that are true AND are intended to be targeted for the use of making men's lives better.

However, what I've noticed happening in recent years is a HELL OF A LOT of guys out here starting to take this Red Pill, Blue Pill, Pink Pill, White Pill stuff FAR too seriously---to the point that they can't even engage in a REAL conversation about male/female relationship dynamics with folks in the real world WITHOUT parroting and/or vomiting up "Matrix/Alpha Male" jargon---which makes them come across as being "out-of-touch" with whoever they're trying to relay information to.

In other words, nerding it up TOO MUCH, winds up FUKKING it up---most times.

Another thing I've seen emerge is an ever-growing list of fake-ass, wanna-be, "Alphas" running around in packs with other "self-proclaimed" alphas---with ALL OF THEM each claiming to be "the" Alpha of the whole group...lol This is also something that totally erases any kind of credibility they may have when it comes to getting across their supposed messages of male enlightenment, male self-improvement, and/or male wealth/assets self-protection.

Why "is" this?

It's because there's a difference between taking inspiration from a Hollywood movie and using it as a template to build a clever, male-self-help philosophy----and actually falling prey to going so far over-the-top with it that some have turned "Red Pill Philosophy" into it's own twisted, short-sighted form of RELIGION.

Mission #57 - Objective: The Great Red Pill War!

I've spent many years helping guys "snap out of it" and then reprogram their mindsets to escape the Red Pill Matrix so that their concept of masculinity can then become one that they can actually develop within themselves---instead of just one that they feel forced to "subscribe" to because a bunch of "Self-Proclaimed Alpha" guys on the Internet "told them to".

The Hardcore Truth is this:

A man shouldn't pledge allegiance to any flag---simply because somebody decides to offer it or wave it. Though I do believe that Manhood should ALWAYS consist of the embracing certain, very-specific core values. I also believe that a more intuitive, nuanced, and strategic approach to displaying that manhood---is just as important.

...which is a concept that I've noticed that the some of the more "devout" followers of the "Red Pill Philosophy" don't seem to be able to so freely embrace.


RESPECT.


V.U.
Now ain't this the truth and nothing but the truth.
 

DEEZEDBRAH

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Yo Troops!

I've had eyes on this "manosphere" space for quite awhile now---LONG before they started calling it that. And also long before marketers co-opted that Keanu Reeves movie "The Matrix" (that, by the way, "co-opted" the Red Pill/Blue Pill"concept from Alice in Wonderland) too.

I've seen the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly manifest itself in multiple ways in the lives of many men (and some were even my personal friends). Now, I don't think that there's anything wrong with embracing concepts about masculinity that are true AND are intended to be targeted for the use of making men's lives better.

However, what I've noticed happening in recent years is a HELL OF A LOT of guys out here starting to take this Red Pill, Blue Pill, Pink Pill, White Pill stuff FAR too seriously---to the point that they can't even engage in a REAL conversation about male/female relationship dynamics with folks in the real world WITHOUT parroting and/or vomiting up "Matrix/Alpha Male" jargon---which makes them come across as being "out-of-touch" with whoever they're trying to relay information to.

In other words, nerding it up TOO MUCH, winds up FUKKING it up---most times.

Another thing I've seen emerge is an ever-growing list of fake-ass, wanna-be, "Alphas" running around in packs with other "self-proclaimed" alphas---with ALL OF THEM each claiming to be "the" Alpha of the whole group...lol This is also something that totally erases any kind of credibility they may have when it comes to getting across their supposed messages of male enlightenment, male self-improvement, and/or male wealth/assets self-protection.

Why "is" this?

It's because there's a difference between taking inspiration from a Hollywood movie and using it as a template to build a clever, male-self-help philosophy----and actually falling prey to going so far over-the-top with it that some have turned "Red Pill Philosophy" into it's own twisted, short-sighted form of RELIGION.

Mission #57 - Objective: The Great Red Pill War!

I've spent many years helping guys "snap out of it" and then reprogram their mindsets to escape the Red Pill Matrix so that their concept of masculinity can then become one that they can actually develop within themselves---instead of just one that they feel forced to "subscribe" to because a bunch of "Self-Proclaimed Alpha" guys on the Internet "told them to".

The Hardcore Truth is this:

A man shouldn't pledge allegiance to any flag---simply because somebody decides to offer it or wave it. Though I do believe that Manhood should ALWAYS consist of the embracing certain, very-specific core values. I also believe that a more intuitive, nuanced, and strategic approach to displaying that manhood---is just as important.

...which is a concept that I've noticed that the some of the more "devout" followers of the "Red Pill Philosophy" don't seem to be able to so freely embrace.


RESPECT.


V.U.
Good post. Its comical really. RMG has a guy like Donovan who cannot check the chat without freaking out. Assumes he's being trolled or actually is before acting like a woman. Another rmg guy has a dude who preaches patriarchy but got cucked by a woman he later married.

Jordan Peterson pointed out that fragmenting of the homo community. Its now lgbt. It continues to fragment as more deem oneself a unrepresented minority. The manosphere continues to fragment. More recently, the rmg is fighting against one another. 1st Rich booted and now rollo. They make call outs at rsd or pickup. I. Miss David Deangelo. He never acknowledged the competition.

I own no allegiance to any sector in the manosphere. I absorb content and I apply what works for me. Hell, i see value in some mgtow content.

Guys need to think for themselves.
 
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