unconditional love

[Vulpine]

It is the source, the formless energy of existance itself. The energy of your heart/spirit/soul. God is love... thus allow the channeling of god into your life in the form of unconditional love. Such an opening would transform and allow yourself to realize your infinite potential as a man, a GOD.

:crazy:

I'm sorry, but Darklight, let me paraphrase this back to you. What you propose is that Love both put that lightbulb there and is the energy that lights it up. The light bulb is in fact, love. So let me get this straight, since god is love, and love is the light bulb, then the light bulb is god? Smells like false idol to me.

I don't know what language you are even speaking, but here is a better definition of love in the english language:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/love
It kind of sounds like an emotion and not an energy, but, I only believe what I want to believe.

Such and opening would transform and allow yourself to realize your infinite potential as man, a GOD, a light bulb, the lawnmower man, hey - whatever floats your hopscotch.

:crazy:


You are right in your beliefs, darklight. And, I really do, actually enjoy such a abstract notion that we are all zeros - it's sort of like the tennis definition of love. Myself, I tend to believe that I'm merely a molecule of a fart cloud in an inteligent life form's colon. I'm sticking to my beliefs, and I don't fault you for yours. In fact, if I were to say it in your language, I unconditionaly love you.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

DARKLIGHT: Hahaha! Well done, well done. I generally reserve my philosophy dissertations for BeliefNet, but I was wondering how long it would take to interject metaphysics into this thread. I intentionally baited DES and BADPIXIE for just this reason with the 'realm of ideas' allusions, my appologies, but it was you who took the bait.

Before I go on, and since this thread has taken a philosophical/theological bend, I would suggest anyone ready to step up to the soapbox and pop off about Love go and read Plato's Symposium. Anyone not having read this would be at a serious disadvantage when debating the qualities of Love. Do a Google search for it, it's well worth your time.

Let me begin by stating that as mushy as this will sound, I believe in a thing called Love (Darkness fans, sorry, I couldn't resist). I also believe in unconditional Love, but only from a metaphysical perspective (ergo my statement that unconditional Love does not exist). I say "believe", because it requires faith in the metaphysical. The concept of a perfect God implies unconditional Love, otherwise he would be imperfect. In fact I could argue the old proverb that, God IS Love. Having said that, bear in mind that unconditional Love resides in the realm of ideas; it's a concept, just as a single deity is a concept, this is the foundation for monotheism (again, look to Aristotle or Socrates, they've been contempalting this far longer than myself). The short version is, "Does God love you unconditionally?", he would have to in order to exist - even in the realm of ideas.

Now, all of that heavy thought aside, we live in the 'real' world of applications. Always bear in mind that you cannot prove a physical argument with metaphysical evidence, nor can a metaphysical argument be confirmed with physical evidence. For example, all of the passengers aboard the Titanic pray with equal intensity to be spared from an icy death, only a quarter survive; did the deaths prove a lack of faith on the part of the praying people? You can't solve it. Nor can you 'prove' unconditional Love in a similar manner.

You may think that you Love someone unconditionally until you actualize a condition that counters that concept. Unconditional Love is an absolute, and absolutes only exist in the realm of ideas. It's like contentment. We all strive for complete (an absolute) contentment, but we can never realize it in the physical because conditions constantly change. If you could in fact realize contentment or unconditional love (or genuine altruism for that matter) how boring would that be? You would stagnate and cease to grow, cease to mature. It's like learning the cheat codes to your favorite computer game. It's fun to play God for a while and have everything play according to your will, but without risk, is it genuine? An omniscient God could easily structure reality to his will and have everything in existence realize total contentment and unconditional Love, but at the cost of choice and random occurance. And that would get old realllllly fast,...

DESDINOVA & BAD PIXIE: Do you believe in different varieties of Love? Such as Agape, Erotic, Platonic, etc.?

 

[Maverick001]

To love is to risk.

To love is to sacrifice.

To love is to endure.

To love is to keep secrets that will never be told.

To love is to know that everything you have done for another may be for naught, because all things end, but love just the same anyway.

To love is to be true to yourself and recognize that in another.

To love is to let go and also to hold fast. You'll know which and under what circumstance when you ask, "Will loving her cause me to stop loving myself?"

Love is both form and substance and ideal. It is fire and warmth and light. Beware the pitfalls as much as recognizing the benefits.

Love comforts, entices, rewards and also shreds the heart, poisons the mind and sears the soul. All who have lived and loved can attest to all of these.

Love creates and love destroys. What you take from it is what you bring.

Cheers,
Mav

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Kind of ironic don't you think?

 

[Desdinova]

God is love... thus allow the channeling of god into your life in the form of unconditional love.

Okay, let's back up here. Now, I really don't want to get into a religious debate, but for the sake of letting you know where you're stepping, I personally have abandoned all religion and belief in god. That's all I'm going to say on the subject.

In regards to your second question... I absolutely think it is important for a person to love (in the true sense now) a person who has done them wrong.

I'm going to put an even further spin on the question. Is it good for a child abuser to feel love for a six year old child, but dislike the laws that try to prevent him from acting on it?

I'm going to now put this out there: We absolutely need hate and indifference (as stated by Rollo to be the opposite of love) to prevent our world from becoming over-indulged in "love". If everyone over-indulged in it, there would be chaos. Actually, anything taken to an extreme (including love) can lead to chaos.

Also, I may have found a case where unconditional love can actually exist, considering I break my "two person" rule.... Loving yourself. However, that is only an expression. I'd almost prefer using the expression "respecting yourself" as it's more accurate.

Actually, religion ties conditionality into love more than anything else on earth.

I agree 100% with Westcoaster. But I'm also trying to avoid the topic of religion.

Such and opening would transform and allow yourself to realize your infinite potential as man, a GOD, a light bulb, the lawnmower man, hey - whatever floats your hopscotch.

Vulpine, you forgot the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I generally reserve my philosophy dissertations for BeliefNet,

Ah, so you've been there too!

I believe in a thing called Love (Darkness fans, sorry, I couldn't resist).

Rollo, you bastard, now I have that song stuck in my head

DESDINOVA & BAD PIXIE: Do you believe in different varieties of Love? Such as Agape, Erotic, Platonic, etc.?

Man, I haven't heard those phrases since my religious torture days (I had to look them up to jog my memory). I believe that people do experience these different varieties or levels of love. However, I use other expressions to describe these levels since some of them IMO don't really deserve the word "love". I sure as hell wouldn't call one-itis "Unrequited Love". Also, I may never experience some of these since I don't believe in Jesus Christ or God.

For instance, I really have a difficult time figuring out how some religious people can have such an intense "love" for Jesus Christ. I sure as hell never felt it, and I may never feel it. However, I cannot deny that these other people feel it. If they enjoy it, all the more power to them. Just leave me out of it!

Getting back to one of my earlier posts in this thread, "Love" is just a word.

 

[RedPill]

As stimulating as it can be sometimes to wander into into the metaphysical, and to see how deeply we can explore concepts beyond the realm of human understanding, is there anything pragmatic to take from this thread?

It's like we're defining the concept of "sh1t." There's about 200 definitions, most of them slang. What I take out of this thread is this:

1) Unconditional love is an idea that's most commonly used to describe cornball romantic notions, such as the soulmate, etc. It doesn't exist in a practical sense.

2) The concept of unconditional love as the "life force" works, but holy fvck can someone please make up a new word to describe the energy that drives life? Love is a word that is way overused.

 

[Heretolearn]

good responses everyone - My take: You create your own reality and truth.

Hence, unconditional love exists if you want it to.

Why would you is your own question.

 

[DarkLight]

Oh christ... lol
I knew my posts would get bent this way and that!

First off... cause its the most vehiment disagreement within me.
In no way, shape or form am I a bible-beating, religious fanatic. On the contrary I'm totally opposed to the childish major religions of the world.

... the people who "love" Jesus. lol... what a joke. They love the hell out of Jesus, but if you don't your the devil's messenger. That is not love! That is blind fanatascism.

If you have incredible love for anything in your life... true true divine love in life... it carries over to everything. Your heart's apeture as we all know takes incredible spirit to open, and once opened is now an earned new level. Granted their's bullsh!t that'll piss you off... but nonetheless, you still have a more sane response to such scenario's.

Alright... now onto the countless clarifications, it seems I need to make.

:crazy:
I'm sorry, but Darklight, let me paraphrase this back to you. What you propose is that Love both put that lightbulb there and is the energy that lights it up. The light bulb is in fact, love. So let me get this straight, since god is love, and love is the light bulb, then the light bulb is god? Smells like false idol to me.

You catch on quick there Ace. (except for the false idol remark)
Yes this is my definition of god, as well as all the enlightend beings, saints, and mystic's of humanity. Shall I include modern day quantum physicists too. Maybe that will "woo" your strictly left hemisphere (thus limited) understandings of this infinite mystery: life.

You then go on to write:

I don't know what language you are even speaking, but here is a better definition of love in the english language:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/love
It kind of sounds like an emotion and not an energy, but, I only believe what I want to believe.

Great... now I'm arguing about "love" with someone who understands it through a definition out of the wiktionary. Then goes on to seperate emotion from energy, lol. Um... I'm just gonna save my time altogether on this one.

Rollo... hmm?! lol
I have my doubts about your "baiting" this concept with your "'realm of ideas' allusions"... but whatever. Either way, whether you meant it or not... I have to give you credit. Your presenting it later on as pre-meditated is an excellent utility in escape (if you didn't originally mean it as such). And if you did, then cheers. I guess I can accept my exposing a perspective in much need of contest. (So does this now mean that your the indirect root of me steering this into a more abrstact light? lol)

Oh ya... and I will check out the "Symposium" in respect and curiosity for the craft I've gleemed in your post.

Des...

Okay, let's back up here. Now, I really don't want to get into a religious debate, but for the sake of letting you know where you're stepping, I personally have abandoned all religion and belief in god. That's all I'm going to say on the subject.

Amen. lol
Refer to my parallel disgust of the world's religions as well. As far as belief goes... fvck it, I'm one for knowing.

I'm going to put an even further spin on the question. Is it good for a child abuser to feel love for a six year old child, but dislike the laws that try to prevent him from acting on it?

I'm going to now put this out there: We absolutely need hate and indifference (as stated by Rollo to be the opposite of love) to prevent our world from becoming over-indulged in "love". If everyone over-indulged in it, there would be chaos. Actually, anything taken to an extreme (including love) can lead to chaos.

Um... hell ya its good for a child abuser to feel love for a six year old child. Maybe then the fvcker wouldn't be abusing them.
And in regards to the laws against such disgusting acts... they're only there cause the world lacks the sanity and heart that would naturally banish such sickness from existing.

As far as hate and indifference being the opposite of love... I wouldn't necessarily say that. Hate yes... it is love standing on its head. But indifference, I think a better definition would be, it is the lack of love.

I personally would rather live in a world "over-indulged in love" than a world "over-indulged in hate." Such a world would seem to be the exact chaos that your describing. With issues of racism, prejudice, wars, violence, rape, child-abuse, etc etc etc. Sort of like the world we live in right now. But I must admit... it seems humanity on the whole is waking up, and seeing itself more and more everyday... thus evolving into a more intelligent direction.

So I only agree to the fact that "hate and indifference" are necessary only in respect to life's duality.

Redpill...

1) Unconditional love is an idea that's most commonly used to describe cornball romantic notions, such as the soulmate, etc. It doesn't exist in a practical sense.

It does exist in a practical sense. You just have no experience of its reality. Thus, can only understand it in conceptual form. From there its easy to associate it w. cornball "romantic notions" and hokey sh!t like a "soulmate." I'd urge you to check out some of the masters of the east... a true guru, and experience the quality of their being. Its a continous radiation of their soul... unconditional love. (now he can still yell at you and beat you w. a Zen Stick, don't fool yourself into thinking hokey sh!t about that either. But he does such from his heart, towards your mutual awakening as well)

2) The concept of unconditional love as the "life force" works, but holy fvck can someone please make up a new word to describe the energy that drives life? Love is a word that is way overused.

Fair enough... and an excellent opportunity to gain perspective on some of the madness this has twisted into. How about "conciousness" or "truth?"

Someone that is living in unconditional truth... would be considered REAL. From this perspective, maybe it would be easier to see what I meant with "unconditional love" yielding the potential power in MAN.

------------------------------------------------------------
Anyways... I've appreciated everyone's opinion, and perspective in this thread. My goal is not to continue driving this sh!t into esoteric foo-foo'ness. My intention was to illuminate how an attitude of other-wordly intelligence, could and would benefit us as men... on the everyday street level. Bringing us more inlign with our mutual goal here... to realize our infinite masculine/godly potential. Simple as that. Not trying to draw lines, rather connect some dots.

Peace Peace!
(and unconditional love to all, lol)

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

When you read Symposium you'll understand why I find debating Love so entertaining. Threads like this are essentially the modern day Symposiums.

 

[Bonhomme]

Rollo Tomassi wrote:

Love necessitates conditions be met in order for the state to exist; it is therefore a conditional state.

Interesting point. But can love which is based on certain initial conditions (e.g., a loving relationship with a family member, long-time friend, or spouse) develop into unconditional love, where one could develop an attitude that the person one unconditionally loves has no control or understanding of their behavior if they do something hurtful to you?

I have personally experienced such situations, but the things those people have done to me have not been so extreme as to really push the limits, so I reserve judgment on the matter, and damn well hope I never have anything stronger to go on. Again, it comes down to loving the person while hating some of their actions.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

BONHOMME: Observing the process will change it.

The unconditionality of anything (not just Love) assumes the process for that state occurs in a vacuum. As I stated before, unconditionality is an absolute. Because something is improbable doesn't make it impossible. The possibility exists that there may be some unknown condition that counters the unconditionality of a state. That possibility therefore negates the state.

Obviously things get even more dicey when you involve subjective elements like Love into the equation. Suppose for a moment there exists a guy who unconditionally loves his wife and has this tested by some of the most horrendous circumstances and it can somehow be empirically qualified that he does in fact Love his wife inspite of them. The next day a tree branch falls on his head and he suffers total amnesia, not remembering even his name much less who his wife is - does he still bear unconditional Love? What I'm saying is that external circumstance exists, completely apart from an individual, that can negate a state of unconditionality. Which then begs the question, was the state ever unconditional?

 

[DarkLight]

When you read Symposium you'll understand why I find debating Love so entertaining. Threads like this are essentially the modern day Symposiums.

Right... I already understand the futility of such subjective topics in debate. My elucidation, etc... was more with the intention of clarification, and offering, than to win the title of "correct."

and just for sh!ts and giggles, and for your further amusement in such arenas... how about if I responded to your...

Obviously things get even more dicey when you involve subjective elements like Love into the equation. Suppose for a moment there exists a guy who unconditionally loves his wife and has this tested by some of the most horrendous circumstances and it can somehow be empirically qualified that he does in fact Love his wife inspite of them. The next day a tree branch falls on his head and he suffers total amnesia, not remembering even his name much less who his wife is - does he still bear unconditional Love? What I'm saying is that external circumstance exists, completely apart from an individual, that can negate a state of unconditionality. Which then begs the question, was the state ever unconditional?

with...

After the man was struck by the tree, and suffered total amnesia... wouldn't he be a changed and different man?! Thus... you couldn't subject your scrutiny of his previous unconditional expression to his new and different persona. There is an un-associated change and difference now (in that he has broken from the orginal form in question), and that needs to be judged in a new light.

lol... anyways... thought I'd just shoot that out there, in devil's-advocate jest. Anyone with a more practical perspective to lead this thread out of ancient Athens... please do.

 

[Thomas94305]

Wait, wait, wait.... rewarding bad behavior is not loving to that person. Giving a drug addict money is not a loving thing. Rewarding a woman for acting bratty keeps her from growing. Overlooking infidelity holds her back from building faithfulness and trust that's needed for real intimacy..

Love and consequences are consistent, not conflicting.

 

[Bonhomme]

What I'm saying is that external circumstance exists, completely apart from an individual, that can negate a state of unconditionality. Which then begs the question, was the state ever unconditional?

... which begs the question: Is any state ever unconditional?

I see what you're saying, Rollo T, but to me it's getting too far into a semantic "strange loop" for any practical usefulness. Obviously, if you distill the definitions to their barest essence, everything is conditional, and this whole discussion is essentially meaningless. End of discussion.

In essence, we're talking about different things: I'm looking at it as commonly understood. To crib a line from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, it's like quality: people have a sense of what quality is, but things go haywire when you attempt to properly define it. People have a sense of what is meant when someone talks about "unconditional love." It is in that spirit I'm discussing the matter.

So it falls back into a conflict of paradigms that is essentially immune to resolution. Gee, this is fun ...

 

[DarkLight]

Wait, wait, wait.... rewarding bad behavior is not loving to that person. Giving a drug addict money is not a loving thing. Rewarding a woman for acting bratty keeps her from growing. Overlooking infidelity holds her back from building faithfulness and trust that's needed for real intimacy..

Love and consequences are consistent, not conflicting.

Wo wo wo!!!
Who's talkin about handing a junkie a hundred dollar bill!?
Or even "rewarding a woman for acting bratty"...?

If one thing of value that this thread has clarified, is that our general defintion of "love" is fvcked!

The love that I've been speaking of, lives in the utmost respect for self, and acts in the most intelligent manner it knows of the moment. This does not mean enabling a drug addict with more money, nor does it mean, sprinkling rose pedals in a warm bath for a lover in celebration of her deceptive actions.

I'd urge you to look at your fixed notions of what you THINK "love" is. Then redefine the idea, to suit your understanding of the phenomena through your own experience.

 

[Vulpine]

I can only really think of one thing as truly unconditional. Time.
Time marches on even if the clock is broken.

I can see then how "love" could be seen as being unconditional in that regard. I can look back at failed relationships and know my feelings of "love" are still the same even after 10, 15 years. It was the incompatability of us at that point in our lives that caused separation, not our feelings which drove us apart. Some can argue that the remaining love is unhealthy to have, but, it's not really a thing you can "turn off", just like time. You can only disregard, or de-prioritize love. So, perhaps in that sense, any love is unconditional.

Both "love" and "time" are theorhetical. So let's consider time:
Once a being becomes aware of the concept of time, time starts. For that being, time doesn't stop until the being dies. If other beings share the same concept of time, then that time continues until THEY die, etc.

So switching back to love, it could be said that once one becomes aware of "love", the clock starts and doesn't stop until they die. If other people shared this love, then the love continues until THEY die, etc.

DarkLight brought up spirituality and religion. This is actually a premium example because a "God" is something that many people can have a "love" for. The popularity of a specific "God" determines how long that time will last. i.e. If one person loves a god, and other people share the love, then once the "founder" of that religion dies, the other people carry on the timeline. If everyone dies and there is no longer a "love" for a "god", then "time" stops for that god. This is how religions come and go.

It could be said that relationships come and go this way as well.

Consider your ancestors and funerals. Once someone dies, many people gather who "loved" the person. Those people continue their "love" until they die. Even then, the love doesn't die, because that person shows up in a family tree. I love my great-great-great grandfather unconditionally, once I became aware of his existence.

Oops - I loved him once I became aware of his existence. I love him on the condition that I knew about him.

"Time" can only exist as long as people are aware of the concept of time.
"Unconditional Love" can only exist so long as the lover is UNaware of the love.

That's my final answer, Regis.

 

[Bad_Lil'Pixie]

DESDINOVA & BAD PIXIE: Do you believe in different varieties of Love? Such as Agape, Erotic, Platonic, etc.?

Absolutely, but I, personally, would not be able to achieve a level of unconditional platonic love, meaning unconditional love toward a friend.

Agape and erotic love would be a love I could ONLY have with my mate/lover.

FOR ME, unconditional love (toward a lover) is power packed with other elements. I can only achieve such a level when I also have unconstrained trust, when I have unrestrained respect and completely honorable intentions. This plentiful trust, respect and honor are not CONDITIONS; they are the components of or constituents that make love unconditional (to me).

(Vulpine is probably convulsing by now! LOL)

Many may not be able to achieve such a level, in ways it is a vulnerability, one that many desire NOT to experience. Their thinking is NOT wrong, it is perfect for them. Some people can not trust completely, respect fully or honor another in word and deed, I however, can.
(Of course barring fallen tree branches, LOL)

So, to kick the ant bed further, can a person COMPLETELY trust another?

 

[Victory Unlimited]

Deep y'all.

I like it...


I believe it's quite possible for love to be unconditional.

But I think it is elevated to that level only after selfishness has been overcome. For those of us still here living our lives wearing these Earth-Suits, this is a lifelong battle---to conquer our flesh (our carnal, selfish nature).

Conditional love is love given because of this, that, and the other.

Unconditional love is love given JUST BECAUSE...


Troops,

Whenever I have either given, OR received this, it has been more fulfilling than ANYTHING else I have ever experienced.


Peace...one day.

 

[xmlenigma]

Without getting technical on the 'unconditional' word..

In some respects when we talk about unconditional love it may relate to something where you dont have major expectations.. You give love without wanting anything back or expecting anything or much at all. Even what you get back is negative you still keep giving.. even if you are hurt. I am sure there is a breaking point there... there is more tolerance.

- A mothers love for a child
- The love of a hobby or passion e.g. people who've lost life and limb to mountain climbs in the himalayas but still do it. e.g. The recent everest summit by the guy who lost 2 legs to his love for climbing.
- A grandparents love and caring for their entire family..

Ofcourse, love, depth of love varies.. But then again.. what is love? hehe..

Cyclic questions

As they say.. its all a state of mind.. its all IN HERE..