raised by a single mother

[Heretolearn]

inspried by a post from a great poster (rollo tomassi) in the oneitis thread:

'Lastly I think it's also important to consider the guy with an immature or stunted understanding of this protector mentality due to being raised by an overbearing (most often divorced) mother. A child is a composite of half their mother and half their father. A child that has learned to loath the side of his personality that is the masculine may never develop and/or hate the characteristics that make him masculine; among this protector instinct. Thus they see the ONE as validation of themselves in that they conform to this misguided feminine ideal that has been taught to them since childhood by supplicating more completely to women. I can think of at least two, 45 y.o. men I've counselled in the last year that would fit this definition; effectively moving from an oppressive, domineering mother to a wife that fills this same role. Each were reluctant to risk taking any authority back from thier wives for fear of losing their one soulmate'


VERY INTERESTING TO ME!

I was raised by a single mother and was her counsellor/helper/protector.

I developed a dislike for stereotype 'manly' behaviours like drinking beer, swearing, sleeping around, not caring, watching sports etc.

Thus internal conflict within myself.

ANyone else have a similar thing? ANy ideas how I get past this?

 

[IEman99]

hang around real dudes and you'll learn to be your own man because quickly you'll see if you're weak, they will pounce on you and clown you. if you're strong they'll respect you. see how you rub off on other dudes (no homo) and you'll begin to form your own boundaries as a man. its the next best thing to not having a male role model....try it.

 

[joekerr31]

give me a break friv.

he has every right to be upset with his mother for banging some loser just becuase she wanted a kid. then having no clue as to how you raise a man. heck, probably has no clue what a real man looks like.

i agree though, it is important to be thankful for the good things. but at the same time, nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade.

its this kind of sh*t that ruins mens lives, because no one shows them the way.

i had similar circumstances and i can honestly say that my mother has lived her life as a victim, and taught me to do the same.

i didnt start to find my own way until my early 20s. i didnt really start to develop true courage until my late twenties.

one of the worst things that most mothers do (which is REALLY damaging if there is no father figure) is constantly second guess things.

what i've come to learn as a man is that a man must be decisive. he must see that he has option a or b. he can think about it for a little bit, but then he must act! a man who lacks the courage to act, becomes a charlie brown in this world.

now you contrast that with how women go through life. they almost never act. their whole psyche is built around never making a black and white decision. everything is in the grey zone with them.

so these poor guys grow up and every time they see things in a black and white context, their mother has to point out how they arent taking this or that into consideration.

case in point:

single mother scenario

son: i asked her out but she said no
mother: don't let that upset you timmy. she probably was having a bad day. maybe she is in a relationship right now. don't let it get to you timmy.

father scenario

son: iasked her out but she said no
father: so what? there are plenty of other women out there. stop pouting and get back up on the horse.


it took me a LONG time to figure out how to think, feel and act like a man. once i did i felt so much better about life and myself.

a man who thinks like a woman (which is often the case if they are raised by a woman) will get his heart ripped out and his self respect sh*t on in this world.

J

 

[Wyldfire]

spider said his mother was over protective of him and really pushed him being responsible. Right now he might resent her for it...but later in life, he will appreciate her for those things.

Joekerr, you have no idea what the story or situation was about spider's birth or what the deal was with his father OR his mother, for that matter. You're too presumptuous...

 

[tmpgstx]

Aaaaah, raised by the single mother crowd. This is me too. My grandpa often said i had to raise myself. My mom is a very decent, caring and intelligent woman but had no self-esteem. She went for the wrong type guys because of it.

Growing up with her and my two sisters, i in effect became the man of the house in my teens. Guys would stalk my mom and sisters and i had to be the one to keep them at bay, scare them away etc. When i wasn't home, it would be worse. Alot of pressure for me and stress (as if i didn't have enough before my teens).

Jokerr31 is right, nothing is every decisive and there is alot of unnecessary worry about situations and what people think etc.

I feel though in spite of not having a father, finding my way to become my own man has been more of an advantage, as i've felt alot of pain and was not spoiled by any means. There are many things that can make a man, but being humbled by feeling alot of pain and able to sympathize with those who have it rough is a predominate quality character trait that indentify great men.

Many men that were raised by single mothers have become great athletes and leaders. The very common thing between them is that they are all humbled gentlemen. They are not spoiled, quick to judge, no inferiority complex, and very diciplined with respect for themselves and others. They've had to find their own way, and in by doing so have become experts in manhood. This is not to say that all guys raised by single mothers turn out this way, as many of them don't, but the ones that do are better for it.

Growing up, many of the girls i liked went for guys that were spoiled. These guys thought alot of themselves, because they were selfish and self-centered. They do not (and many still do not) know what it's like to feel some real pain. They take things for granted, including women. They do not have any real character, only that which is fabricated on false confidence by being told how great they were all their lives. These were the type of guys that got everything they wanted, new cars, girls, you name it. If it came to helping someone on the street and no one else was around, they would have no problem igoring them. A man that has felt pain and had to some real growing up to do, wasn't spoiled etc., doesn't turn the other cheek but see what he can do to help.

 

[ElChoclo]

One of my sons is being raised by his mother. The other by me.

The one with his mother has become timid and unsure of himself, subject to bullying. The one with me is confident, a leader at school. The one with his mother just tells everyone what he thinks they want to hear. The one with me speaks his mind.

Mothers do not play with sons the way fathers do. Society undervalues the benefits of fathers in a family. When I go to school to meet teachers, as I have in the past, I have to impress the teacher because it will make them think more highly of my child. Because I have a so called prestige job, the shine rubs off on my children. My stepdaughter went from the bottom of her physics class to the top after I had a talk with her teacher.

If I had sent their mother the teachers would not have been half as impressed. In statistical studies when they pigeon hole your social class it is by reference to your father's occupation, not your mother's . It is I suppose assumed that she is not the driving economic influence.

 

[LongDrinkofWater]

(Hand up in the air) Yep, raised by a single mom here as well.....

Dad passed away when I was four. His relatives took me away from my mom for many months (only son to carry on the name). Mom got me back with the help of my aunt (powerful woman she was - politics). Once back, I grew up with my mom of course, and a sister one year older, and a sister one year younger.

My mom was a librarian; a very good woman. My older sister a smart girl who made poor BF choices, and a ho for a younger sister.

In terms of growing up with male influence - there wasn't much. I just learned how to get high with a little bit of help from my friends (as the song goes), and did the best I could in the dating department. Needless to say, that part sucked. I was around plenty of women, but all the wrong ones. The only high point was all of the hot friends of my younger sister -

In response to the original post, I didn't exactly forgo the stereotypical "manly" behaviors - I was a good athlete, drank, smoked (eventually quit), partied. BUT I did notice my inabilty with women, especially around two of my friends in particular - both were amazing with women. I was totally frustrated. My way around it (in hindsight) was time. Eventually, things turned around, and I'm finding that success with women just keeps getting better all the time. I have to say a spike in my learning curve occured when I found this site. Read, apply, apply, apply, reread.

 

[joekerr31]

haha, so we are all in agreement... women do a sh*tty job of raising men.

they don't do it intentionally. its all they know how to do. they think they are doing a great job.

you know, this site, at the end of the day, is probably a huge resource for a huge generation of men raised without fathers, or by absentee fathers or afc fathers or whatever.

its good to see men teaching each other what works and doesn't work. not just with women, but in life. because at the end of the day, figure out life, and youll figure out women.

J

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

In the post I made that YENDOR quoted of me I stated that we (both men and women) are composites of both our parents. I am half my father and half my mother, my daughter is half my wife and half me. A child derives it's understanding of gender from the influences, or lack there of, from the conditions both parents model AND modify for them. The basic logic is that my daughter will base her understanding of the masculine from me and the feminine from my wife. If my attitude towards my wife's femininity is negative, I then modify this for her to the negative. If my wife devalues the merits of my masculinity, she then modifies my daughter's perception of masculinity.

The masculine has a natural propensity towards risk taking, while the feminine stresses security and safety, but both are necessary elements in our personal development. When one characteristic is lacking the other will tend to be dominant. A child depends on it's parents to have a mature understanding of these functions of gender and when one is deficient or absent altogether it retards the overal maturity of the individual. Ergo when Mommy consistently goes on about what an A-Hole Daddy was or how indecisive and spineless he is, the child then internalizes that masculine characteristics are negative and to be curbed. In the reverse if Daddy badmouths Mommy he likewise prompts a negative characterization of feminine traits.

Children do not think in abstract terms, they think in binaries - it's either on or it's off. They have not yet developed the mental tools to form objective understandings and are thus powerless to defend themselves from gender interpretations and biases set for them by their parent's examples. This is not to say that we are slaves to this initial programing, but on some level it will affect our interpretations of gender characteristics for the rest of our lives.

I would argue that a great majority of AFCs and LSE women in the world suffer from this as a root cause of their interpretations of gender. AFCs raised by a single mother who herself was raised by a single mother will have no regard for any positive aspect of masculinity, likewise for girls, if the male element is absent or devalued. The same holds true for women lacking the self-esteem to act in their own best interests as a result of having that masculine influence removed.

This is not to undervalue the feminine either. Both sexes need this influence to develop empathy and accurately judge risk assessments. Of course there are men who become abusers after having a lack of positive modeling of the feminine.

After 3 or 4 generations of this denigration of both genders, many individuals suffer from a retarded understanding of the qualities of gender. A single mother who becomes the grand mother of a woman who herself becomes a single mother is the result of a continued decay in appreciating the masculine. AFC fathers who spend a lifetime supplicating to their wives, whether in marriage or divorce, inadvertently teach their children (both male and female) that it is a masculine trait to do so because he has never learned otherwise and models his behavior for them without knowing this.

 

[joekerr31]

spider, there are lots of guys in this position. the truth is both the mother and father are to blame, equally.

they've made their bad life decisions YOUR problem.

that is NOT right!

I've struggled with this my whole life. as a son you feel the need to protect your mother.

but at the same time, objectively speaking, it is NOT right that her mistakes become your punishment.

This also creates a degree of anger towards women in general. That they only care about themselves. Her husband can't take care of her, fine, she'll get her son to do it - all the while only considering her own needs (ie. having someone take care of her).

its wrong wrong wrong. but its wrong because she is weak. this is why she got with your father in the first place, because she is weak.

she may be tough, and a survivor, but she was too weak to pick the right guy.

So at the end of the day, you are the product of all these bad decisions.

the key is NOT to let the bad decisions of others (your parents) determine your life now.

and its not a: love her or hate her scenario. It can be as simple as.... ok, she did the best she could, and the bets she could wasn't good for me. I can still care for her, but now its time to focus on me and make decisions based on MY best interest.

its a horrible paradigm to get caught up in, where you feel obligated to someone that you love and hate all at the same time.

So guys, LISTEN UP, this is the kind of reprocusions that arise from marrying the wrong woman (well in spider's case from a woman marrying the wrong man).

marriage and having kids isn't a game of 'lets poke the hole'. its serious sh*t. it has consequences that reach FAR beyond you.

J

 

[Wyldfire]

Originally posted by spider_007
let me clarify, she has no education, and can barly keep a job (short and fat). The only thing she has going for her is she is One of the best "WOMEN" out there. She works full time, cooks & cleans (EVERY DAY!!!). My dad was abusive to her (beat the **** out of her) so she devorced him. She has been single for almost 20 years. One downside to her is she is good at manipulating (using a lot of guilt), which i seem to be a victom of.




It's kinda hard to be greatfull to someone who made you give up a very important part of your life (youth, social life, young love....) while most people ware partying and enjoing their careless youth, i was helping my mother survive in a new country (all alone). At 13 i was folowing her to work and helping her clean.... at 15 i got my first job and with the money bought her a car (8 000 in cash, it wiped me out clean), at 17 i enroled in a apprenticeship program and went to work in a machine shop (taking abuse until i proved my self through hard work and earned the respect of the men there) at 20 I put down a down payment (12 000) on a 130 000 house, and took up the morgage, at 22 i'm working fool time and going to nightschool twice a week....... there seam to be no end.....

the only person i can blame is her..... I wish she didn't "guilt" me into being a nice guy. I wish she didn't "guilt" me into giving up friends and my young days. I wish i had a youth.

But then, she is my mother, i'll never leave her on her own, i take the responsability, no metter how hard it's going to be (like every man should). Life ain't gona be easy, but then, for me it never was....

Well yeah...it sucks that you didn't get to do things other kids your age were doing. I still say you will see things a bit differently when your high school reunion rolls around. You'll show up as a successful, mature grown man and all those "cool party kids" will not have changed much or grown up much.

Parents do the best they can with the tools God game them. Try to remember that your mother just didn't want you to end up having to struggle as an adult. It was her job to teach you responsibility and how to provide for yourself and make intelligent decisions in life. It sounds like she did a great job doing that. It's too bad she didn't make room for providing you more fun than you had. You could have had it much worse...at least she didn't stay with an abusive man and have you grow up thinking abuse is normal. It sounds like she at least tried. It's really too bad you resent her so much when it does sound like she was just trying to do a good job raising you by herself.

 

[joekerr31]

wyld,

what would it take for you to see a woman as not having done a good job?

staying with an abusive man?

so any mother who gets knocked up by an abusive man then leaves him is a good mother.

bah, woman thinking.

the only place women get to get away with this kind of insane thinking is in their relationships. in every single other element of life, reason rules.

hey, his mother could have been for sure. but lets not compare his upbringing to kids who had two caring and loving parents who showed them the rules of life.

how can you show your kids the rules of life when you obviously don't even know them yourself to be getting knocked up by some abusive jerk.

the only reason women have hte attitude that you are exhibiting is because they buy into the whole "a woman has to have children and you have to excuse any mistakes she makes in the pursuit of that goal."

load a crock if you ask me.

we make choices, we're responsible for those choices. end of story.

J

 

[Wyldfire]

Originally posted by joekerr31
wyld,

what would it take for you to see a woman as not having done a good job?

staying with an abusive man?

so any mother who gets knocked up by an abusive man then leaves him is a good mother.

bah, woman thinking.

the only place women get to get away with this kind of insane thinking is in their relationships. in every single other element of life, reason rules.

hey, his mother could have been for sure. but lets not compare his upbringing to kids who had two caring and loving parents who showed them the rules of life.

how can you show your kids the rules of life when you obviously don't even know them yourself to be getting knocked up by some abusive jerk.

the only reason women have hte attitude that you are exhibiting is because they buy into the whole "a woman has to have children and you have to excuse any mistakes she makes in the pursuit of that goal."

load a crock if you ask me.

we make choices, we're responsible for those choices. end of story.

J

At the risk of once again being accused of being redundant...

I happen to be one of those single mothers who was abused by the father of my kids. Yeah, I am responsible for the choice I made. I was an idiot, just 18 years old and thought I knew everything. In reality, I was really naive and foolish and no one bothered to try to advise me on relationships. I married the man I lost my virginity to at 18 years old. His abusive treatment was something he kept fairly well hidden until after we got married and was just the tip of the iceberg. He has Borderline Personality Disorder. People who have this can fool people when they want to...they should qualify for an oscar...because the crazy behavior really does entirely blindsight you.

Now, if you can honestly say that over 20 years later and never getting involved with another abuser over that time that I should still be judged on a mistake I made when I was a kid then to be blunt with you...you're being totally unrealistic, unfairly judgemental and being that rigid in judging others is just going to set you up to fail.

Christ Almighty...you can't fault people for being human and making a mistake. The quality of a person cannot be summarily defined based on ONE thing from their past. If people judged you that way you'd probably never get a date or have a relationship. EVERYONE makes mistakes. It's whether or not they LEARN from those mistakes that matters.

Recently you've been posting that you're having a hard time meeting suitable women. Perhaps you should take an honest look at whether or not your unrealistic demands might be a good part of the problem you're having.

I'm not saying to go get involved with some woman who has 4 kids with 4 different fathers, has been married 3 or 4 times or anything. I'm just saying that the attitude you have can be compared to that saying about tossing out the baby with the bathwater. More importantly, however, is WHY you are sabotaging your changes of having a good relationship and finding a good woman if you go to such great lengths to find something wrong with women before you even meet or get to know them?

Chew on that question for awhile...you might just find the reason why you aren't enjoying yourself so much right now.

 

[Heretolearn]

a great discussion.
Thank you ROLLO - AWESOME analysis - especially on the children part!


Wyldfire - I suspect Joekerr is not judging you or your life.

A mistake does not a bad person make, otherwise we would all be in hell

Obviously you learn and evolve in your life. However, who you choose to be with at the present time is a MASSIVE choice.

Happiness can only be gained within. Thus a partner may not necessarily be the answer. Although life experiences gained from that partner may help.

 

[Wyldfire]

Originally posted by yendor28
a great discussion.
Thank you ROLLO - AWESOME analysis - especially on the children part!


Wyldfire - I suspect Joekerr is not judging you or your life.

A mistake does not a bad person make, otherwise we would all be in hell

Obviously you learn and evolve in your life. However, who you choose to be with at the present time is a MASSIVE choice.

Happiness can only be gained within. Thus a partner may not necessarily be the answer. Although life experiences gained from that partner may help.

yendor...I only use myself as an example to show how a woman often becomes a single mother. Real experiences are far better than assumptions and stereotypes.

 

[joekerr31]

wyld,

at the end of the day a single mother wouldn't want me for a mate. im doing them a favor.

im not looking to sacrifice the life experience of having a child for the first time with a woman. Nor am i looking to clean up someone else's mistakes.

i at no point have said that a single mother can't be one of the most amazing women on the planet. what i can say is that she has a "situation". A situation that is usually messy, complicated, effects children, and on and on and on.

there are lots of single dads out there, let them hook up wtih the single moms. nothing wrong with the brady brunch.

but to sound like right proper prick, I'm not a big fan of second hand clothing and really have no desire to take some other guys woman and kids off his hands.

and to be honest with you, a lot of these single moms, from what i've seen, have learned a great deal, but they've exchanged one set of baggage for another.

they go from "any man will do" to looking for a surogate daddy, and they have unrealistic expectations that after 6 months of being together, the dude should now be taking Timmy to soccer practice.

so its pretty simple, unless you are ready to jump in there as a dad, don't mess with single moms.

thats my view.

J

 

[Wyldfire]

Originally posted by joekerr31
wyld,

at the end of the day a single mother wouldn't want me for a mate. im doing them a favor.

im not looking to sacrifice the life experience of having a child for the first time with a woman. Nor am i looking to clean up someone else's mistakes.

i at no point have said that a single mother can't be one of the most amazing women on the planet. what i can say is that she has a "situation". A situation that is usually messy, complicated, effects children, and on and on and on.

there are lots of single dads out there, let them hook up wtih the single moms. nothing wrong with the brady brunch.

but to sound like right proper prick, I'm not a big fan of second hand clothing and really have no desire to take some other guys woman and kids off his hands.

and to be honest with you, a lot of these single moms, from what i've seen, have learned a great deal, but they've exchanged one set of baggage for another.

they go from "any man will do" to looking for a surogate daddy, and they have unrealistic expectations that after 6 months of being together, the dude should now be taking Timmy to soccer practice.

so its pretty simple, unless you are ready to jump in there as a dad, don't mess with single moms.

thats my view.

J

I honestly only know one single mother like you describe. The other single mothers thought she was a piece of trash and had no respect for her.

I can only tell you how I am in regards to dating and being a single mother. First off...my kids are my responsibility. They are NOT the responsibility of whoever I get involved with. I won't even let a guy meet my kids most of the time. There have only been 3 men I've dated who have met them since 1994. One of those men I was engaged to and the other two were guys my kids already knew because they initially were friends.

When I was with my fiance who died, I told both him and my children that their relationship with each other was going to be up to them as to how it was. I expected them all to treat each other with respect and I hoped they would like each other. It turned out that they did like each other very much. I never expected or pressured him to take on the role of father and I never expected or pressured my kids to see him as such.

Single mothers, just like single women and men without children date and get involved with men for companionship and to add something to their life. As I mentioned...only one single mother I've known actually went out looking for a new father for her kids.

Men tend to assume that single mothers are looking for someone to take care of them. Back before women weren't as able to provide for themselves, that was true. However, today, that's not true at all. Women can support their own children by themselves if they have been put in the positon to have to. Women don't look to men to support them anymore.

To be perfectly honest with you...if a guy tried to "jump in and play Dad" with my kids it would be cause for an immediate "Next". A man who has JUST met your kids has no right or business doing that. My kids, my responsibility. Just respect them and treat them as such and call it a day.

This belief that single mothers are looking for a new father or someone to take care of her and her child/children is a HUGE misconception on the part of many men.

 

[WestCoaster]

I've gone out with a few single moms and am going out with another one soon. I don't put too many limits on myself, I want to date as many people as possible. Given the choice? I'd rather date a childless woman, but that doesn't mean I would close the door to dating a single mother.

I'm more impressed with the single mother who is devoted to her children than one who carries on a lifestyle not advantageous to the children or child's well-being. A post here earlier today was wondering if it was good to date a 21-year old single mom who doesn't have the kid and "wants nothing to do with him" ... I thought that was one of the cruelest things I've heard.

A single mom who is devoted to her children -- even if at times you have to take a backseat -- is a mom with the correct values. When dating a single mom, one has to realize that sometimes you don't come first.

Since I like living by myself and enjoy doing lots of solitary activities, this aspect really doesn't bother me. I've learned to do things solo if I don't have a date, including going to movies, dinner, sporting events, etc. I would rather be with friends, but I don't wait for people to call because they might not.

I dated a single mom for awhile who was pretty hot but was missing a lot upstairs ... she couldn't understand why I didn't think it was right to be sleeping over when the kids were there; and after she dumped me she was parading boozers and losers through her house, sleeping with them with the kids right there. That I don't respect.

It's personal preference: If you don't want to date single mothers, don't do it; if you do, do it; if you can date either single no kids or single with kids, date both to check out what you really want.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

This belief that single mothers are looking for a new father or someone to take care of her and her child/children is a HUGE misconception on the part of many men.

Exactly how I'd expect a single mother to respond. On some level of consciousness all women want a male to share parental investment with. They innately know that having a man to share the responsibilities that childrearing demand it is preferable to have two parents rather than one. This is in born and hardwired into a woman's psyche and it's how nature intended it to be since survival of a child is better aided by two parents sharing parental investment. It's ludicrous to suggest that this isn't the case since even 5 year old girls know this. It's part of the filtering female process to find the mate that is best suited to pair with and this is a psycho-biological function. It doesn't simply turn itself off and men innately realize this from a lifetime of performing for women to be the better parent while competing with other males.

 

[Wyldfire]

Originally posted by Rollo Tomassi
Exactly how I'd expect a single mother to respond. On some level of consciousness all women want a male to share parental investment with. They innately know that having a man to share the responsibilities that childrearing demand it is preferable to have two parents rather than one. This is in born and hardwired into a woman's psyche and it's how nature intended it to be since survival of a child is better aided by two parents sharing parental investment. It's ludicrous to suggest that this isn't the case since even 5 year old girls know this. It's part of the filtering female process to find the mate that is best suited to pair with and this is a psycho-biological function. It doesn't simply turn itself off and men innately realize this from a lifetime of performing for women to be the better parent while competing with other males.

You're quite wrong, Rollo. Single mothers don't look to the men they date to replace the father of their child/children. Most single mothers DO, however, look to the natural father of said child/children to be a responsible and helpful parent. There is a HUGE difference between looking to the man who helped make a child to help care for it and looking to some man your child has never even met and you hardly even know to take on that role. No parent who loves their child would trust some new person playing parent to their child. At most single mothers want their child and boyfriend to get along and like each other.