Boundaries, male friends, and reality

[jnMissouri]

I watched a couple conflicting videos today that made me think about some things I've seen with friends and experienced myself vs guru advice.

Boundaries are a masculine thing IMO. DariusM for example says that the beta males who let their girls go hang out with other guys or what not are A lot of gurus say that. That said, some say things like trying to control her in ways that keep her from cheating are insecurity and a turn off, etc. Lot's of gurus rehashing each others advice on both theories.

My take is, boundaries are NOT about insecurity. I thought about my own experiences and that of some friends and some women I was "friends" with.

Example A: My friends wife cheated on him, she had male friends, didn't work, he paid for everything. She used the free time to go meet other men while he was at work. Post divorce he started dating a girl who had a boyfriend. The BF was suspicious of their friendship, didn't like him calling her, would see his number calling on her phone, and she would tell him things like well if you ever tell me to stop talking to him I'm going to keep talking to him anyways. Now, the BF was a hot guy, had had options. Long story short, the girl was cheating on her boyfriend because she was allowed to have this male "friend". A therapist recently noted in a study that 82% of her female marital/relationship counseling clients who are female cheated with a close male friend...I don't believe men can be friends with attractive women in 99% of the cases.

Example B: I dated a married woman (I know...) whom I worked with. Not directly, but we worked for the same company. We had no reason to interact. But she struck up a "friendship" with me. It was obvious what she was doing. She was in an arranged marriage, one man only ever in her life that she had slept with and deeeeeply religious with two kids at home. She had an affair with me, would come over to my house, etc. Her husband knew about us being friends and sometimes would tease her about us, but in a way that showed he was suspicious. She lied straight to his face....There were no boundaries about her hanging out with other men or befriending other men, so she didn't feel that what she was doing initially was cheating. She eventually developed such strong feelings I suspect she rationalized what she was doing was ok. She even told me one day she wasn't doing anything wrong....

There are plenty more examples I'm sure I can come up with, but you get the idea. Personally, I have boundaries in relationships about male friends and being around other men. While some gurus say (based on no study or empirical evidence) that it's insecure, I've seen most men on here have the exact opposite opinion on this. Since 82% of women cheat with male friends according to one therapist, it makes sense to me that I don't tolerate beta orbiters in the relationship. It makes sense to me that I don't tolerate a gf hanging out with other men. Even in group settings I'm not really OK with it. With very attractive women, guys in the group will always hit on them and she can still feel like she's doing nothing wrong hanging out with them and getting to know them with ulterior motives under the guise that it's a group thing. Well that may later turn into 1:1 drinks, dinner, coffee...

While I encourage girls night out, I expect it to be at a table not the bar. I've had married women at bars give me their numbers....yeah, being tied town starved them for attention and validation...I don't see anything wrong with these things. Oddly enough, while my gf has accepted these boundaries (and some other gf's as well, but not all, which I broke up with), she said she is OK with ME going to the bar....she just reminded me what she has told me since day 1 of our relationship: being drunk cannot be used as an excuse if you do something stupid.

I don't know if she is just naïve and too trusting or what. Mind you, this is the same girl who said she would arrange a threesome for me for my birthday because she wants to please me. Personally I wouldn't go sit at the bar, though I have in past relationships and not thought anything of it.

My take on it is that there are certain "things" you give up when you are in a relationship in exchange for gaining other things, and that boundaries help keep people from being put in positions where attraction and opportunity do their thing, because as we all know, attraction is NOT a choice.....

Thoughts? Am I too strict? Right on? Or do you think the other half of the gurus who say being jealous of male friends and doing stuff like this displays insecurity?

 

[metalwater]

if you think you need boundaries then you do need them.

thinking like an armchair quarterback and looking back on history, I would not put in a boundary with a woman that I am not married to. I would simply next her if the reason for boundary appears and or demote.

if married with kids and then you discover the need, then yes put them in and enforce by any means you can. even better if you are in a limited community and can place the boundaries on the other men.

if she is a very young virgin, then maybe you protect her with rules. any other, it is better if she makes the choice herself that aligns with what you like.

for sure do not worry about what others think about this, just do what feels right. if you feel the need for setting boundaries then do it. it is not insecure or jealous it is a reaction to something she is doing. she may or may not know she is doing something or she may have rationalized to herself so much that she thinks she is innocent. remember she is not your judge, what you think is more important than what she tells you.

I would NOT encourage girls' night out. if she needs a lot of girls' nights out, she is not ready for a committed ltr. that doesn't make her bad at all, just she isn't ready to priority one single man. just search SS, how many threads ask advice on how to approach a girls group and isolate one of them. btw: the girls know about all of this, that's why they want to go to those locations together.

self imposed boundaries are the stuff of a great girl.

submitting to your boundary is a sign of submission (and that's good..) but not a sign of desire.

 

[Grounded eagle]

I watched a couple conflicting videos today that made me think about some things I've seen with friends and experienced myself vs guru advice.

Boundaries are a masculine thing IMO. DariusM for example says that the beta males who let their girls go hang out with other guys or what not are A lot of gurus say that. That said, some say things like trying to control her in ways that keep her from cheating are insecurity and a turn off, etc. Lot's of gurus rehashing each others advice on both theories.

My take is, boundaries are NOT about insecurity. I thought about my own experiences and that of some friends and some women I was "friends" with.

Example A: My friends wife cheated on him, she had male friends, didn't work, he paid for everything. She used the free time to go meet other men while he was at work. Post divorce he started dating a girl who had a boyfriend. The BF was suspicious of their friendship, didn't like him calling her, would see his number calling on her phone, and she would tell him things like well if you ever tell me to stop talking to him I'm going to keep talking to him anyways. Now, the BF was a hot guy, had had options. Long story short, the girl was cheating on her boyfriend because she was allowed to have this male "friend". A therapist recently noted in a study that 82% of her female marital/relationship counseling clients who are female cheated with a close male friend...I don't believe men can be friends with attractive women in 99% of the cases.

Example B: I dated a married woman (I know...) whom I worked with. Not directly, but we worked for the same company. We had no reason to interact. But she struck up a "friendship" with me. It was obvious what she was doing. She was in an arranged marriage, one man only ever in her life that she had slept with and deeeeeply religious with two kids at home. She had an affair with me, would come over to my house, etc. Her husband knew about us being friends and sometimes would tease her about us, but in a way that showed he was suspicious. She lied straight to his face....There were no boundaries about her hanging out with other men or befriending other men, so she didn't feel that what she was doing initially was cheating. She eventually developed such strong feelings I suspect she rationalized what she was doing was ok. She even told me one day she wasn't doing anything wrong....

There are plenty more examples I'm sure I can come up with, but you get the idea. Personally, I have boundaries in relationships about male friends and being around other men. While some gurus say (based on no study or empirical evidence) that it's insecure, I've seen most men on here have the exact opposite opinion on this. Since 82% of women cheat with male friends according to one therapist, it makes sense to me that I don't tolerate beta orbiters in the relationship. It makes sense to me that I don't tolerate a gf hanging out with other men. Even in group settings I'm not really OK with it. With very attractive women, guys in the group will always hit on them and she can still feel like she's doing nothing wrong hanging out with them and getting to know them with ulterior motives under the guise that it's a group thing. Well that may later turn into 1:1 drinks, dinner, coffee...

While I encourage girls night out, I expect it to be at a table not the bar. I've had married women at bars give me their numbers....yeah, being tied town starved them for attention and validation...I don't see anything wrong with these things. Oddly enough, while my gf has accepted these boundaries (and some other gf's as well, but not all, which I broke up with), she said she is OK with ME going to the bar....she just reminded me what she has told me since day 1 of our relationship: being drunk cannot be used as an excuse if you do something stupid.

I don't know if she is just naïve and too trusting or what. Mind you, this is the same girl who said she would arrange a threesome for me for my birthday because she wants to please me. Personally I wouldn't go sit at the bar, though I have in past relationships and not thought anything of it.

My take on it is that there are certain "things" you give up when you are in a relationship in exchange for gaining other things, and that boundaries help keep people from being put in positions where attraction and opportunity do their thing, because as we all know, attraction is NOT a choice.....

Thoughts? Am I too strict? Right on? Or do you think the other half of the gurus who say being jealous of male friends and doing stuff like this displays insecurity?

Your own experiences will always be more valid than any “PUA guru’s” advice. You alone know what’s on ground in your life and no one else knows what you’re dealing with better than you.(Presuming you’re being honest with yourself)

The idea that guys setting boundaries for their girls is a sign of insecurity is a meme perpetuated by society to absolve women of inappropriate behaviour while in a relationship.Especially when you consider that the girl almost always cheats.

 

[2Rocky]

1) don't give her a reason to cheat. Rock her world in the sack. Keep "dating" her. Remain a leader in your relationship.
2) let her be proud of you and show you off. Be a high value man.
3) keep meeting new people and having dynamic relationships with people. Surround yourself with people who challenge you to better yourself.

If she wants to have date night once a month, do it once a week and don't get stuck in a rut, and don't complain. Just because its an LTR or Committed relationship doesn't mean you can slack off.

If she is getting her sexual needs met and has an adequate amount of excitement in her life, then she won't have the time or energy to seek other male companionship.

It goes both ways too. I've been there myself...

 

[Robert28]

Most male friends are hopelessly friendzoned and would never have a chance to fvck their girl friend if they were the only two people left on earth. What you speak of is quite rare.

 

[Alvafe]

you guys always miss the whole point, boundary is what you are willing to take from a woman, when you have boundarys you don't overt and tell her then, you don't need to explain to her why is not ok she hang with guys, going out alone and so on, if she does anything you don't want you next her, you don't try to control you just skip till you find one who does not put herself in a situation it will look bad.

a interested woman will not risk lose you, and that mean putting herself in a situation who could be taken in a bad way, if you ahd any big social circle with both woman and men, single and couples you will start to notice 3 things, if the girl are taking the things serious she will never show up alone, a couple will never go only one unless the other really is not possible to go, and both know who will be there and trust nothing will happen and if do the one who is not present WILL know, people will tell and last she will be more willing to leave said social circle and go to his if that means spending more time with him

 

[mrskinnypantz]

even if you do set boundaries she will still end up cheating anyways .
Because the more boundaries you set , the more starved she becomes for that validation and male Attention.
But I don’t think you’re wrong for wanting to set boundaries , I think your heads atleast in the right place , you’re not gonna tuck your tail and just let her run you over

 

[mjb3617]

You can set boundaries and she'll most likely cross them because she wants to test you or doesn't see you as her best option.

At that point, you have to tell her you aren't going to tolerate her behavior and you have to walk away.

 

[Duke26]

Even high interest women will still see how much they can get away with. Gotta have a few boundaries and keep your word on them

Without boundaries she’ll always use the excuse “ you never said anything “.
With boundaries you know that she decided to still go against them and that tells you what you need to know.

 

[Bokanovsky]

1) don't give her a reason to cheat. Rock her world in the sack. Keep "dating" her. Remain a leader in your relationship.
2) let her be proud of you and show you off. Be a high value man.
3) keep meeting new people and having dynamic relationships with people. Surround yourself with people who challenge you to better yourself.

If she wants to have date night once a month, do it once a week and don't get stuck in a rut, and don't complain. Just because its an LTR or Committed relationship doesn't mean you can slack off.

If she is getting her sexual needs met and has an adequate amount of excitement in her life, then she won't have the time or energy to seek other male companionship.

It goes both ways too. I've been there myself...

There is some truth to what you're saying, but I disagree with the general premise that the man has to do most the work to maintain the relationship. If you're putting in more work than she is, you have already lost in the long run.

 

[samspade]

Without boundaries she’ll always use the excuse “ you never said anything “.

There will always be an excuse no matter what. More importantly, for me anyway, I get to decide what's right for me at any given moment, and I have the right to change my mind.

IME setting boundaries explicitly is a waste of time and energy. I've never felt freer or better through restricting someone else, and girls aren't so dumb that they can't get around the "no guy friends" thing if they want to. As @Alvafe said, it's more about what you know you are willing to accept or reject. Know thyself, trust thyself, and be true to thyself - that's all you need.

I live a worry-free life when it comes to women because I don't care about this stuff - I care about what I can handle if it happens and I find out. I wasn't always like this though.

 

[2Rocky]

There is some truth to what you're saying, but I disagree with the general premise that the man has to do most the work to maintain the relationship. If you're putting in more work than she is, you have already lost in the long run.

It ain't 50/50.......















It's 100/100. When you figure that out you got it.

 

[Bokanovsky]

It ain't 50/50.......

It's 100/100. When you figure that out you got it.

Not sure if they teach math in school anymore (has it been replaced by gender theory?) but your proposition is the logical equivalent of division by zero.

 

[Macadellic]

Alright my SoSuave brothers here’s my opinion on setting boundaries based on my experience.

Setting boundaries in a relationship is too late.

If I see that she’s a gal with guy friends then I’m not interested in a relationship with her and I will not entertain the thought of her being my girlfriend.

What’s next OP,
You going to start a thread asking how to set boundaries on your gf/wife who doesn’t know how to manage money and over spends plus you took on her debt.

How about you just don’t get into a relationship with a woman of such financial ruin.

Just my opinion.

 

[jnMissouri]

Alright my SoSuave brothers here’s my opinion on setting boundaries based on my experience.

Setting boundaries in a relationship is too late.

If I see that she’s a gal with guy friends then I’m not interested in a relationship with her and I will not entertain the thought of her being my girlfriend.

What’s next OP,
You going to start a thread asking how to set boundaries on your gf/wife who doesn’t know how to manage money and over spends plus you took on her debt.

How about you just don’t get into a relationship with a woman of such financial ruin.

Just my opinion.

That's akin to saying let's just assume we are on the same financial page about money, spending etc. when entering a relationship or before getting married, that if you have to make sure you're on the same page rather than assuming what's acceptable or not, it's too late.

Relationships require communication. Communication of needs, expectations, etc. When behavior doesn't match expecations, arguments ensue. As such it's important to make sure you are both on the same page about your expectations financially and otherwise. Who pays for what. What's ok and not ok. Boundaries and similar conversations are there to help you identify inappropriate behavior that many seem as harmless attention but often flourish into more.

Boundaries are also a good test of whether she will submit. A girl who doesn't submit get's nexted or is just spun until I'm done (easier said than done when you develop feelings for them after a while....). If she can't follow your boundaries, it's not a good sign. It's a preventative measure that is an indicator of whether the person can be trusted or not before they get to the point of doing something stupid. If the girl finds making new male friends more important than respect your relationship, that says a lot right there and you might as well walk away.

Boundaries are like the HR policy handbook at your job. The terms of service for your Costco membership, etc. They are the rules of the road. Much like our laws are.

In my examples above, the men didn't give their women any boundaries. So they were able to engage in cheating that started out as harmless "he's just my friend" when their intentions were otherwise. Boundaries help you catch inappropriate behavior and walk away before it is outright cheating. It also shows her that you have standards, respect yourself and won't tolerate being disrespected and are willing to walkaway if she doesn't follow your lead and treat you well.

In the above examples, those men could have used healthy boundaries. The poster who said to use my own experiences and judgement as a guide is spot on. Same with the poster that the jealous and insecure nonsense is obvious gaslighting by women and society so they can do whatever they want. I've seen men and women who have no boundaries end up having their partner act like they are single.

I wouldn't say I encourage girls night out, so much as I'm OK with it, but there are boundaries around that too. Not at the bar, at a table, no guys in the group. No friends who are bad girls that push her to get into trouble, etc.

What I find odd is that she is OK with ME going to the bar (not my thing and she knows that), so long as I keep in mind that being drunk is never an excuse for cheating - something she has told me repeatedly when we first became a couple.

 

[2Rocky]

Not sure if they teach math in school anymore (has it been replaced by gender theory?) but your proposition is the logical equivalent of division by zero.

This has to be the most autistic thing I've read here.

 

[Macadellic]

@jnMissouri
I agree with everything you just said/posted.

I’m just looking at it from a screening/vetting process BEFORE entering a relationship.

Which goes back to your point of men not setting boundaries and getting burned. Which in my opinion comes from a lack of experience.

 

[jnMissouri]

you guys always miss the whole point, boundary is what you are willing to take from a woman, when you have boundarys you don't overt and tell her then, you don't need to explain to her why is not ok she hang with guys, going out alone and so on, if she does anything you don't want you next her, you don't try to control you just skip till you find one who does not put herself in a situation it will look bad.

a interested woman will not risk lose you, and that mean putting herself in a situation who could be taken in a bad way, if you ahd any big social circle with both woman and men, single and couples you will start to notice 3 things, if the girl are taking the things serious she will never show up alone, a couple will never go only one unless the other really is not possible to go, and both know who will be there and trust nothing will happen and if do the one who is not present WILL know, people will tell and last she will be more willing to leave said social circle and go to his if that means spending more time with him

Exactly.

 

[jnMissouri]

@jnMissouri
I agree with everything you just said/posted.

I’m just looking at it from a screening/vetting process BEFORE entering a relationship.

Which goes back to your point of men not setting boundaries and getting burned. Which in my opinion comes from a lack of experience.

Agreed. Come to think of it, I've seen a lot of guru's say you must set boundaries to increase attraction via gaining respect. Beta males allow women to do whatever they want for fear of losing her. The beta's follow her lead. Alpha's and Sigma's lead and tell her that if you want to be with me, this is how I expect you to treat me, with respect. If you don't, I will leave and find a woman who will.

 

[Macadellic]

Alpha's and Sigma's lead and tell her that if you want to be with me, this is how I expect you to treat me, with respect. If you don't, I will leave and find a woman who will.

You can communicate this with your words and or your actions and or both.

Stay sharp.