You're NOT the prize

[starplayer]

Just kidding, of course you’re the prize.

But as harsh as the title of this thread sounds, there is a reason I say it. There seems to be a myth in the community that all you need is “game” to get and keep hot women. You somehow “deserve” to have a 10 no matter who you are.

I’m sure we’ve all come across some of the stuff pushed by pickup gurus trying to sell their products, “You can be a short, bald, fat, ugly, poor nobody and still get hot women! You’re entitled to date 9s and 10s!”

As great as this sounds, it’s simply not the truth. Why is this?

It’s because you’re not giving any value. Why should a man who has NOTHING to offer deserve a hot woman? Just because he believes he deserves her doesn’t mean sh!t. All of these tricks and techniques are about creating the ILLUSION of value. They basically teach guys how to be FAKE. It’s all smoke and mirrors.

The problem with faking value is sooner or later she’s gonna find out. Oh yes, she will. If you’re using game to try and KEEP a woman you will fail every time. There’s enough threads on the discussion forum proving that.

Remember, you may think that between you and her that YOU are the prize. But you also have to be the prize compared to other guys she meets. Not every guy she meets can be the prize.

That’s not to say game doesn’t have its place. Don’t get me wrong, when guys first come to the community I think they need to go through a phase of believing they’re the prize, mostly because they have massive self-esteem problems. It’s also important for men to have game so they don’t get taken advantage of by women. If you want a one night stand then game can be very effective, but anything else such as an LTR and even a FB is asking for trouble.

You can’t go on faking it like this forever. Once you’ve been in the community for so long you can’t go on relying on tricks and techniques and inner / outer game. You eventually have to stop faking value.



And here’s something else some guys might not realize. Women know how to fake having value all too well. Playing hard to get, anyone? All of their tricks and mind games in Cosmo. Ever heard of The Rules?

So you have a fat, ugly, lazy woman sitting around not answering the phone believing she deserves a high value man. The women’s dating advice tells her SHE is the prize. This low value woman believes she deserves a tall, handsome, rich, successful man and she doesn’t have to do sh!t.

Of course this is a lie.

But the problem for her is she believes this bullsh!t, so instead of getting on the fvcking treadmill and learning how to cook, she sits around playing mind games and b!tching about how all men are a$$holes.



All of this dating advice is very dangerous for guys too because it can make them lazy. “Why should I change who I am, I don’t have to change for any woman. All I need is game. I’m already the prize”. But this is the wrong view to have. And he’ll realize that soon enough.

If you want to get and keep hot women then you cannot rely on tricks and techniques forever. You cannot have no status, money, looks, etc and expect to get hot women because you have a few mind games up your sleeve.

If you want to get and keep hot women YOU MUST RAISE YOUR VALUE.

Yes, it requires actually doing something other than learning PUA seduction tricks. There is no magic pill. There are no shortcuts. Instead of focusing on being the prize and saying “I am the prize”, actually BECOME THE PRIZE.



So how can a man raise his value? Several ways actually:

- Looks
I don’t want another looks thread. All I will say is every man should look his best. Don’t compare to other guys, it’s pointless – just improve your looks. Get in the gym, have good hygiene, have some fashionable clothes, etc. Change what you can, don’t worry about the stuff you can’t change. We are luckier than women in that we don’t have to rely so much on looks, but they still matter to a degree.

- Status
If you’re young, get an education. If you’re unemployed, get a job. If you already have one, do everything you can to move up the ladder. Always move forward. Be ambitious. Get money. Get status. Get power. However long it takes.

- Social
If you’re shy push outside your comfort zone. Learn social skills. Make friends. If you’re already a social person then get a larger social circle. Become a popular guy that everyone wants to know.

- Get a life
That’s right, get out of your house and do something other than sitting in front of your computer. Get some hobbies and do stuff you’re interested in. Get a fvcking life.

IMPROVE YOURSELF AND THE WOMEN WILL COME.

This is a very basic list. There’s loads more detailed stuff on SoSuave about self-improvement. Search around, this place is a goldmine.

I know this has all been said before but it can't be stressed enough.



Depending on where you are in life, these things may take more time. But you should always be working on them. For most of us these things will take years, but the hard work will pay off in the end. I know I still have a long way to go to get where I want to be, but I work on it every single day.

And if you don’t wanna put the work in, then don’t come crying to the forums when your “Negs” and “Demonstrations of Higher Value” didn’t work and a man with REAL VALUE came along and stole your girl because HE is the prize.

 

[jocca]

Completely agree. There seems to be a large trend of backslapping and high fiving going on on this site in relation to far to little effort put into self improvement.

I think the real expression should be that everyone has the potential to become the prize.

 

[Ease]

DHV and negs aren't mindgames. There complicated names for things you do when talking to a new girl. Telling stories and teasing girls isnt anything new.

 

[Lexington]

A lot of the guys here really are prizes already. You don't have to be a billionaire tycoon with washboard abs and a magnetic charm to land quality women. Yeah, you might have a hard time pulling supermodels or actresses, but you can still land your garden variety hottie.

For me, I found that I already had everything I needed to attract women. I just lacked confidence and social skills. Game doesn't necessarily mean that you try to pretend to be something that you're not. It is a way of showcasing your best self.

Of course, that's not to say that we shouldn't constantly be striving to improve ourselves.

 

[starplayer]

DHV and negs aren't mindgames. There complicated names for things you do when talking to a new girl. Telling stories and teasing girls isnt anything new.

Yeah but if you have real value then you won't have to "DHV" and "neg", it will happen naturally.

Teasing should be natural, not conscious or forced.

A lot of the guys here really are prizes already.

Really? Reading the Discussion Forum it's pretty obvious some guys have some issues which run a lot deeper than getting women.

You don't have to be a billionaire tycoon with washboard abs and a magnetic charm to land quality women. Yeah, you might have a hard time pulling supermodels or actresses, but you can still land your garden variety hottie.

I don't think I said you have to be a billionaire tycoon and have washboard abs (although that would certainly help). I said we should improve ourselves to the best of our abilities. Be the best you can be.

For me, I found that I already had everything I needed to attract women. I just lacked confidence and social skills.

Well that's good for you and it further proves my point. You already had value but didn't know what to do with it. I'm in a similar situation where finding game increased my success with women 500% but I still have to gain more value to KEEP a hot woman.

Many guys are not at that level and do the opposite, i.e. they rely on game when they have low value themselves, and they do nothing to raise their value.

They learn game and get a girl into a relationship, then wonder why she dumps him and branch-swings to another guy.

You know why girls like confidence? Because they assume the confidence is based on something REAL, and they want to find out what it is. So you better have something to back up that confidence.

Game does have its place, but you must have the value to back it up if you want to keep the woman.

 

[comic_relief]

the thread title was a good catch

VERY GOOD POST (I rarely ever say that anymore and rarely read tips anymore)!!! I find many men get stuck in a trap at sosuave and other self-improvement sites. They read, read, eat, read, read, and sleep. Repeat the process over again. I even fell into that trap in the beginning.

I didn't start actually keeping or getting quality women until I started doing something noteworthy. Notice the timeline:
- Joined Sosuave in March 2004
- Pennsylvania Governor School for Teaching alumni (2005)
- Family, Career, and Community Leaders of America State and National Leadership Meeting gold medalist (2006)
- University away from home (2006)
- Independent Bike Tour around Northeast Pennsylvania (2008)
- Amnesty International (2009)
- Currently Fuller Center for Housing's Bike Adventure (2010).

Before 2005, women had no interest in me at all, but after that point onward I started getting girls. I really wasn't the prize at all, instead I was a nobody that thought I was a somebody.

The funny thing about women is the women that would not even look at me in 2005, now cannot believe the things I am doing now. Some have even asked me to chill with them when I am free. HA!!!

The more stuff that I actually do, the more confidence and understanding that I have.

Thats why I believe it is important to BECOME the prize.

- comic_relief

 

[FutureSpartan]

This is a good post.

Looks (overall appearance), money, and status are the hard currency in the mating game. It gets your foot in the door. Sometimes its all you need to get women without much effort. Game simply improves your hit ratio, and helps tie up the loose ends. Most guys don't get this, hence the useless debates about "do looks matter" etc...

Bottom line, if most women are not feeling any initial attraction towards you, then your gonna work harder and not get as much success than an overall more attractive guy who puts in the same effort.

 

[the305]

Guys starting out always want to learn "how do i to get women" when they should be learning "how do i become the man women want". which sums up this post.

Good post man.

 

[Salvage]

I am sure your post will be popular. I have read similar posts and they always are. And while I agree that self improvement is a good thing, I disagree with just about everything else.

It’s because you’re not giving any value. Why should a man who has NOTHING to offer deserve a hot woman?

Noone has "NOTHING". Who are you to decide that a short, fat, balding ugly man (or whatever it was you said) has no value to any woman who is physically attractive? Value isn't objective.

Just because he believes he deserves her doesn’t mean sh!t.

It means everything. If he believes he doesn't deserve her, it's a self fulfilling prophecy. Rich guy with washboard abs will still destroy a relationship if he doesn't think he deserves her.

All of these tricks and techniques are about creating the ILLUSION of value. They basically teach guys how to be FAKE. It’s all smoke and mirrors.

YOU perceive game as a substitute for value. I perceive game as BEING value. You even say, yourself, that social skills are of value. Game is just a social skill. Don't think game is inherently valuable? Pfft, men pay ****loads of money for it, guys look up to other guys who are good with women, women are turned on by men who talk to them the right way, women are turned on by men who are attractive to other girls.

You might respond "I agree, game has it's place but it's not the only thing you need". Pfft. It's a value. Better to have lots of different values? Sure. Better to be rich, successful, good looking, humble, confident, funny, brilliant, hung like a horse AND have game? Sure. But it doesn't make game any less attractive, as a quality. It doesn't even mean that it might not be the MOST important quality, as far as attracting women goes.

Remember, you may think that between you and her that YOU are the prize. But you also have to be the prize compared to other guys she meets.

Partly true. Except that, once again, your value to her is not objective. Your value to her is determined by her. For many people, investment of time and emotion increases your value.

And here’s something else some guys might not realize. Women know how to fake having value all too well. Playing hard to get, anyone? All of their tricks and mind games in Cosmo. Ever heard of The Rules?

While I disagree with your very premise that game is fake, even if it is, you want to say that a guy shouldn't fake his value but you also point out that is exactly what women do all the time?

Every hot girl you see has faked being hot by wearing makeup and clothes that accentuate her assets. But you want to put a negative value on fakeness? If a girl is a 10 all day and night, except maybe she is a 7 for the 30 minutes in the morning before she puts on her makeup, does that make her a 7 because she was being 'fake' the rest of the time? No. She is just what she is. A 10 most of the time and a 7 some of the time.

You cannot have no status, money, looks, etc and expect to get hot women because you have a few mind games up your sleeve.

Sure you can. You don't even NEED PUA techniques. It's a numbers game. The more beneficial attributes you have, the easier it is. But NO-ONE is at 0% and NO-ONE is at 100%. Everyone is in between. Looks, money, game, etc. all just increase your odds.

-----

You say that the message that PUAs deliver is dangerous because people might just sit on their butts and do nothing but depend on game. Sure, like I said, it's better to have multiple attractive attributes. If you are good looking, why depend on that? Why not work on other attractive attributes? Absolutely.

But it's just as dangerous (and fallacious) to say that game is an illusion and you MUST have the other attributes. Some of the other attributes can't be changed. Some of the other attributes can be changed but might take a long time. That doesn't mean don't do them but why would you want to WAIT to consider yourself attractive? Why set objective goals about having money or status or looks to qualify you? Why not start living the good life today?

Sure, you can always IMPROVE. And you should. But let's say you start at a low point and 1 out of 30 women would date you long term (or get laid or whatever your desire is). Let's say that after 3 years of working on yourself, you can improve your numbers to 1 out of 5. Awesome. Definitely worth it...but why on earth would you want to wait those 3 years? And where does it end? Another 3 years?

I hate all the new age-y **** in the community but I am going to borrow one of the new age-y terms here because I think it actually applies. I think what you are promoting is called "Limiting beliefs".

 

[slaog]

I agree with Salvage.

Thats why I believe it is important to BECOME the prize.

I think thats a bit limiting and it more important to BE the prize.

 

[AFCToDJSlowButSurely]

this is solid advice, i just want to add that we all have the value within us, its simply a matter of stripping off the layers of crap covering our inner selves to let the inner value shine through.

 

[starplayer]

I am sure your post will be popular. I have read similar posts and they always are. And while I agree that self improvement is a good thing, I disagree with just about everything else.

OK….. where to start.

Well first off, I know where you’re coming from because I used to have similar beliefs. When I first discovered the community I needed to hear that I had value. I had a self-esteem problem and game instantly solved a lot of my confidence issues. For a while I totally believed that strong game was all I really needed and everything else didn’t really matter.

I honestly wish I could filter this so it could only be read by guys that have been in the community for some time. I don’t want guys who just discovered PU to read this thread and have their confidence destroyed. That is not my aim.

But I’ve read posts by guys on this forum and other places talking about how to have a prize mentality and using mind tricks to have a prize frame. These were guys who have been around for 3+ years!! I had to write it in the hope that at least one person would “get it”.

It seems as though some guys have been into this seduction stuff for so long that they’ve lost touch with reality.

TBH, if there were loads of threads like this on the forum I would probably write one about guys realizing their own value instead. I want to see a balance rather than the forum leaning to just one side or another.

The point of the post is to go against some of the bullsh!t spouted in the community about how nothing matters but game. This is NOT about how game doesn’t matter and everything else does.

Noone has "NOTHING". Who are you to decide that a short, fat, balding ugly man (or whatever it was you said) has no value to any woman who is physically attractive? Value isn't objective.

Value is very REAL. It is not merely perceived. It is not “all in your head”.

You’re right no-one has nothing. But it’s no good just “not having nothing” – you have to be a catch compared to other guys. Female mating patterns are based on hypergamy.

It means everything. If he believes he doesn't deserve her, it's a self fulfilling prophecy. Rich guy with washboard abs will still destroy a relationship if he doesn't think he deserves her.

True, but my point is that just because a guy convinces himself he has value doesn’t make it true.

Telling yourself “I am the prize” doesn’t automatically make you the prize. Life is not that easy.

YOU perceive game as a substitute for value. I perceive game as BEING value. You even say, yourself, that social skills are of value. Game is just a social skill. Don't think game is inherently valuable? Pfft, men pay ****loads of money for it, guys look up to other guys who are good with women, women are turned on by men who talk to them the right way, women are turned on by men who are attractive to other girls.

You might respond "I agree, game has it's place but it's not the only thing you need". Pfft. It's a value. Better to have lots of different values? Sure. Better to be rich, successful, good looking, humble, confident, funny, brilliant, hung like a horse AND have game? Sure. But it doesn't make game any less attractive, as a quality. It doesn't even mean that it might not be the MOST important quality, as far as attracting women goes.

Well I probably would have said something much like you had predicted. I already said that game has a use, as it:
- Gives confidence to guys new to the community;
- Allows men to not get mistreated and used for money / attention;
- Allows men to show-off and make the most of their real value.

I AM NOT AGAINST USING GAME. I AM AGAINST RELYING ON IT.

It is a good point you make about game being a type of value in itself, which I suppose comes under social value.

While I disagree with your very premise that game is fake, even if it is, you want to say that a guy shouldn't fake his value but you also point out that is exactly what women do all the time?

I am not condoning the faking of value by women.

It’s just as dangerous for them as it is for us.

I think game is faking value because it imitates the behaviors naturally exhibited by guys who have high value.

You say that the message that PUAs deliver is dangerous because people might just sit on their butts and do nothing but depend on game. Sure, like I said, it's better to have multiple attractive attributes. If you are good looking, why depend on that? Why not work on other attractive attributes? Absolutely.

I never said someone should depend on looks and not work on other attributes.

But it's just as dangerous (and fallacious) to say that game is an illusion and you MUST have the other attributes. Some of the other attributes can't be changed. Some of the other attributes can be changed but might take a long time. That doesn't mean don't do them but why would you want to WAIT to consider yourself attractive? Why set objective goals about having money or status or looks to qualify you? Why not start living the good life today?

Sure, you can always IMPROVE. And you should. But let's say you start at a low point and 1 out of 30 women would date you long term (or get laid or whatever your desire is). Let's say that after 3 years of working on yourself, you can improve your numbers to 1 out of 5. Awesome. Definitely worth it...but why on earth would you want to wait those 3 years? And where does it end? Another 3 years?

Firstly, I already said to “Change what you can, don’t worry about the stuff you can’t change.”

Also, I think there must have been a misunderstanding. I AM NOT saying to wait and put your life on hold until you’re perfect. That is a recipe for failure. I am saying to continuously improve all the factors you can to raise your value as high as possible.

Always strive to improve. Don’t get complacent and rely on game for your success with women while neglecting self-improvement in other areas.

I hate all the new age-y **** in the community but I am going to borrow one of the new age-y terms here because I think it actually applies. I think what you are promoting is called "Limiting beliefs".

I hate saying what guys can and can’t do, or saying that some girl is out of a guy’s league. But guess what? There are REAL limits for all of us whether we like it or not. It’s not just based on our beliefs, despite what some seduction gurus might have us believe. Life’s not fair. Of course we shouldn’t dwell on this, but we have to accept and be aware of it.

The PUAs say any guy is able to get and keep 10s. How is that possible?!? In reality only some guys can. There is tough competition so you have to improve everything you can to beat the other guys. Game should be to give you that edge over other guys - not the foundation of your value.

IMO, there’s too much feel-good bullsh!t in the community. This is good for guys new to the community, and I don’t like being negative so I wouldn’t post this on the Discussion forum. But some guys have been in the community for years and are still living by this stuff. They need a reality check, seriously. But the truth hurts.

Again, this is one of my more negative posts but I would rather speak the truth than just say whatever people want to hear, and whatever strokes their egos.

It’s just easy to lose sight of the big picture and forget that actually women are simple.

Everything I’ve said is scattered around the DJ Bible as well. And this isn’t just KBJing based on my thoughts – it’s based on my experiences and observing others.




If you honestly believe what you say then fair enough, more power to you. I’m not here to convince you otherwise. But I’ll repeat what I said before:

And if you don’t wanna put the work in, then don’t come crying to the forums when your “Negs” and “Demonstrations of Higher Value” didn’t work and a man with REAL VALUE came along and stole your girl because HE is the prize.

 

[Salvage]

Well first off, I know where you’re coming from because I used to have similar beliefs.

You may see similarity in what I said and what you once thought but it doesn't mean we are coming from the same place. Not trying to be argumentative here, this is actually important. I often find that as my life philosophies evolve, I end up thinking the same thing I thought years earlier, just from a different viewpoint. Same thoughts but different point of reference and different reasons. Point in case, I first thought that Game was everything (in terms of picking up girls). Then I thought game was "fake" as you put it. Now I think it's absolutely a real skill that is valuable in many areas of life, especially in your romantic and sexual life.

For a while I totally believed that strong game was all I really needed and everything else didn’t really matter.

And I think what you have done is swung back the other way but, like a pendulum, you have swung too far off center. That's just based on what you posted.

And I don't think it is just a balance to other people's posts. You seem to have strong feelings about it, even some animosity towards "game".

Value is very REAL. It is not merely perceived. It is not “all in your head”.

Perception based things are just as "real" as anything else. It's just that the rules are a lot more flexible. You choose to give value to other things. Looks for example. Yet looks are perception based as well. There is no REAL value, in this day and age, to being attractive, other than the value that other people perceive in it. Plus, as pointed out, we ALL fake our looks just by wearing clothes, make up, etc. We have some common rules that most people follow so looks aren't *entirely* subjective and yet, let's be honest, there is a TON of latitude in what we consider attractive at any given time.

Telling yourself “I am the prize” doesn’t automatically make you the prize. Life is not that easy.

I wouldn't suggest just telling yourself that you are the prize makes it happen. That's just a...what do they call it...affirmation? Now, believing it...that's a whole different ball of wax...that certainly CAN work wonders.

Well I probably would have said something much like you had predicted. I already said that game has a use, as it:
- Gives confidence to guys new to the community;

Forgive me, I snipped your list...but this is the important point.
You say that game is "fake" and yet you say that it gives confidence. What's the number one thing women want from a guy? Confidence.

You talk about things like money and status and looks as 'real value' and you call game (and therefore the confidence that comes with it) "fake". Ask a women, what has more *real* value in a man, confidence or money or status or looks.

I AM NOT AGAINST USING GAME. I AM AGAINST RELYING ON IT.

Look, here is the way I look at it. It's like, hmmmm....playing basketball. If you decide to take up basketball as a hobby, you start to learn basketball skills. Now, it doesn't hurt if you are in shape, if you are tall or if you have the cool basketball shoes that you can pump up or whatever (you can tell I am a real basketball player here, right? Right?...).

Now if you come across a guy who is in better shape, and who is taller, he might beat you if neither of you has basketball skill. So I am not saying that other things don't help...but if you want to play basketball well, what's the first thing you should do? Learn basketball skills. You can buy the shoes later, you can start working on getting in shape...but nothing will improve your basketball faster than...learning basketball. Getting in shape might take a while, you can pick up the shoes anytime and you will probably never be taller...but one thing you can do, *today* is start working on your basketball skills.
[/analogy]

I think game is faking value because it imitates the behaviors naturally exhibited by guys who have high value.

Close. It is imitating the behaviors naturally exhibited by guys who *know/think/perceive* they have high value.

I never said someone should depend on looks and not work on other attributes.

I know. But you don't give game it's proper credit. Game is the fastest, most effective way to improving your romantic/sexual life. It's not the only way but it is the fastest, most effective one.

Also, I think there must have been a misunderstanding. I AM NOT saying to wait and put your life on hold until you’re perfect.

You may not be meaning to say that but in effect, you are. Most other things that you list as giving value will take a long time to accomplish. And many may be things you will never accomplish in your life, even if they are achievable. There are reasons, outside of game, to accomplish them, absloutely...but, as in my basketball analogy, the fastest way to get good with women is to learn that skill. Supporting skills are good but the direct skill is paramount.

The PUAs say any guy is able to get and keep 10s. How is that possible?!?

In reality only some guys can. There is tough competition so you have to improve everything you can to beat the other guys. Game should be to give you that edge over other guys - not the foundation of your value.

Who says what it should be and what it shouldn't? I don't know about the whole "HB10" thing since people seem to use a lot more forgiving a scale than I do...but I honestly don't see any reason a guy with game can't date a hot chick if he puts his mind to it. Again, it's a numbers game, for everyone. Game greatly improves your numbers but any guy can get laid if he tries enough, even without game, even without having what you call 'real' value.

Everything I’ve said is scattered around the DJ Bible as well. And this isn’t just KBJing based on my thoughts – it’s based on my experiences and observing others.

I will take your word for that. But still...that doesn't make them True.

If you honestly believe what you say then fair enough, more power to you.

I absolutely do. I am not saying that self improvement isn't valuable, I just don't think it's correct, much less helpful, to de-value "game" by calling it fake and reducing it to mind trickery. It's a social skill designed to help with social interactions and has as much real value as any other skill does in the field that it is applied.

 

[zekko]

I agree with Starplayer in that you have to have something to offer, looks, status, a good time, SOMETHING. And you should always be striving to improve to be the best man you can be. And that there are many fake attributes to game and many questionable claims made by PUA gurus.

But I also agree with Salvage that game itself can have value. It's a social value. We all know those guys who don't seem to have much going for them but for whatever reason they're good with women. Most of those guys seem to be naturals, but I guess you never know.

As for "I am the prize", another reason this attitude is recommended is so that you don't put women on a pedestal. Because women don't belong on a pedestal, and you can't go into an approach or a relationship putting her there. Guys have been brainwashed too much that the girl is the prize, and that's no attitude for a man to have.

In the case of that super hot 9 or 10 though (I don't believe in 10s actually), yeah it's very possible that unless you have some very real value in your life outside of "game", chances are you're not going to be able to KEEP a 9 or 10 in an exclusive relationship, if that is your goal.

Most pickup material is based on getting a quick makeout, or a number, or a one night stand. And face it, the pickup targets are generally relatively easy. A drunk girl in a bar or a club? From what I've seen, give a woman a little alcohol and the first thing she's going to want to do is fvck.

But to maintain a relationship? Stuff like Mystery Method especially is about creating an ILLUSION that you have value, and like starplayer says, if she stays around long enough, at some point she's going to figure out that it was all BS. Stuff like inner game has more value.

Of course, if a girl ever doesn't show enough interest in you, the gurus tell you to immediately next her. That's good advice, but it also covers up the fact that you weren't able to attract her in the first place. Probably because you didn't have enough value. This way guys tend to find their level.