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You are insecure if u use Creatine or Steroids

Borgia

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Hey


If you use either of the above products - answer my question. Whats the point of working out, if its about getting urself in better shape then why are u taking drugs which harm you on the inside even if they do give u faster gains on the outside. You should stop using them, drop down to your real weight and start from there. The only reason that i can think of people using them is that they are not secure enough in themselves so they need to look big to feel better.

If you think about it, theres no difference between doing this and smoking cigs because they are cool

boths are signs of insecurity

I look foward to your responses

Borgia
 

Saine

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Roids are very different from creatine. Apparently you have never taken neither, ergo you shouldn't speak as if you have been there, done that.

Creatine doesn't harm you on the inside nor outside. There is no solid evidence unlike roids.

You just lost the argument by assuming everyone who use creatine or steroids to look or feel better. Simply because not everybody do so.
 

Saine

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Btw, steroids is not harmful if used correctly as if you have knowledge of when to use and which to stack, etcetc.

Those two can seriously help you in life if you know how to use them.

Cig on the other hand has no benefit, rather con overweight the pro.
 

Borgia

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actually, you are wrong

i feel that the anology with cigs is a good one one two counts

1)

When cigs first became marketed, people didn;t realise that they were bad for you. in fact many ppl thought that they were actually healthy, like creatine.

The manufactors did their own research, like creatine, and published research claiming that cigs did no harm, again like creatine but held back research showing the opps, like creatine?

Even if it is the case that with creatine, research is not being held back - i for one can not help but being suspicious by research which is being funded in one way or another by the companies that see it.

2)

People can make a argument that smoking is good for you - it calms ur nerves and as stress is a big indirect killer - a competent arguement can be made that cigs are good for lowering it. Besides, 'good for you' is relative and depends how you define good.


And by the way

tell me the average person would use creatine or roids if not to look good - at least back up your argument
 

Saine

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Re: actually, you are wrong

Originally posted by Borgia


tell me the average person would use creatine or roids if not to look good - at least back up your argument
So you are saying there are only bodybuilders?

There are competitions, tons of them where people use steroids to get better, same with creatine. I don't need to back this up, so don't you EVER tell me to back up my statement. I know how to argue.

And I'll speak for myself, I don't want to be like the averages.
 

Templeton

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So you could argue that if you do anything to improve your appearance in any way, workout, watch what you eat, condition your skin, comb your hair etc etc, then you are in some way insecure.
 

drixsa

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Borgia why are you making arguments on something you obviously know so little about?

creatine was heavily researched by the "so-called" other side and the only conclusive study that showed any aspects was one that didnt have their test subjects cycle creatine.

so yes if you dont use it safely it can become a danger to your health.

with that said you can easily say the same things about any drug/medication you have ever taken

also creatine doesnt give you some power to put up un-worldly numbers.

it adds a couple pounds on the weights your doing and helps increase some reps.

the main part of what it does it put more water in your muscle tissue
 

Golden Arms

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Templeton - LOL !!

You're right, this way you could argue that if you do anything to improve yourself, you're insecure.

The only secure people are the ones who don't bathe, sit on their couches and watch Star Trek every night, while eating potato chips and ice cream
 

Borgia

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You are taking it out of context - of course one should care about their appearence - what i am arguing is that simply working out and taking protein supplements will make u look good - it will just take longer because its not just water. Why do you no need the immediate results?

Creatine stays in your liver - nobody knows the long term results of that

Borgia
 

Borgia

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Re: Re: actually, you are wrong

Originally posted by Saine
So you are saying there are only bodybuilders?

There are competitions, tons of them where people use steroids to get better, same with creatine. I don't need to back this up, so don't you EVER tell me to back up my statement. I know how to argue.

And I'll speak for myself, I don't want to be like the averages.

Saine

Its clear to me that you don't know how to argue - u may know how to shout but you don't know how to argue. Part of making a competent argument is backing it up - and if i want to tell you to back up your arguement - i will
 

Saine

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No, your argument is simply useless. Weightlifting itself is already a sign if insecurity if we're going to look at it from your pov thus making my argument hard to back up. I'm not going to take pictures or find articles simply for this argument because it's not a class grade or whatever.

Later, I'm out.
 

Metaphor

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Comparing cigarattes to creatine is silly. You don't naturally produce nicotine in your body. It's not REQUIRED to live. If you're going to make an argumentative analogy, please make it a cogent one.
 

Saine

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Originally posted by Metaphor
Comparing cigarattes to creatine is silly. You don't naturally produce nicotine in your body. It's not REQUIRED to live. If you're going to make an argumentative analogy, please make it a cogent one.
Exactly and it seems noone is agreeing with you Borgia. Noone.

To make it further, I know how to argue and yell but in this case, where was I yelling in my second last post? There was no exclamation mark.
 

Golden Arms

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HAHAHAHAHA

OK, I think in that case - if you shower with soap, you're insecure. It's alright if you just use water, but nobody knows the long term effects of soap !!
Shampooing your hair = another major insecurity

Borgia, you can stop spewing nonsense anytime now
 

Borgia

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I have decided that this is going to be my last post on the topic.


Ignoring roids, lets discuss creatine - i was simply saying that there haven't been long term studies on people using large amounts of creatine. However, there have been for small amounts (a couple of grams a day) and they have found it to be safe - however, even these studies were nine months long.

Working out is healthy, thats why i never said that thats a sign of insecurity. As for the argument that you don't create nicotine in ur body - that wasn't what i was arguing and i noticed that nobody could argue with the points i was making about the anology.


Also, i noticed that people attacked me and not the topic? I wander why?

Anyway, lets let this post die and forget about it - i don;t think anybody is going to listen to each other anyhow
 

Industry

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Re: Re: Re: actually, you are wrong

Originally posted by Borgia
Saine

Its clear to me that you don't know how to argue - u may know how to shout but you don't know how to argue. Part of making a competent argument is backing it up - and if i want to tell you to back up your arguement - i will

It's clear to me that you all need to shut the fu*k up and get a life. Do whatever makes you happy. If you want to take creatine? Take it! Take roids? Sure but don't tell me about it. The bottom line is that taking creatine while I workout makes me feel better and even has a slight psychological effect. When I take it and workout, I want to lift everything in the gym.

And if that makes you think i'm insecure... well, I don't give a rats a$$ what you think anyways.


- Industry
 

Borgia

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Re: Re: Re: Re: actually, you are wrong

Originally posted by Industry
It's clear to me that you all need to shut the fu*k up and get a life. Do whatever makes you happy. If you want to take creatine? Take it! Take roids? Sure but don't tell me about it. The bottom line is that taking creatine while I workout makes me feel better and even has a slight psychological effect. When I take it and workout, I want to lift everything in the gym.

And if that makes you think i'm insecure... well, I don't give a rats a$$ what you think anyways.


- Industry

Jesus

I don;t know what i have done that i need to be sworn at like that - whatever Industry - again attacking the person and not the topic
 

Saine

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: actually, you are wrong

Originally posted by Borgia
Jesus

I don;t know what i have done that i need to be sworn at like that - whatever Industry - again attacking the person and not the topic
No, jesus to YOU for starting the topic. Industry, STFU. You too Borgia.

Mod, close the topic.
 

DX_Flyer

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Borgio, before you give up, I have a good counter-statement I want you to read. Since I feel that you're frustrated because everyone is attacking you and not your opinion, I will try to make a valid argueable statement. (For those of you that dont wish to read all the details and data, just read the bold for the main points of my arguement.)

Contrary to what you said about creatine is like cigarettes, its not. Creatine has been used and studied over a long period of time, and around our generation, they have almost completely guaranteed that it is safe. And likewise, we use it. Here is my evidence to support my statement.


1) History of creatine -

- A french scientist named Chevruel, who named it after the Greek word for flesh, discovered creatine in 1832.

- In the early 1900s, creatine supplementation studies began.

- In 1923 scientists discovered the average human body contained over 100 grams of creatine and of that 100 grams, 95 grams were stored in muscle tissue. Scientists also proved that creatine was naturally occuring non-essential amino acid.

- It was not until 1926 that the first scientific study was published about the bodybuilding effects of creatine. The journal of Biological Chemistry indicated that creatine promoted safe weight gain and increased nitrogen balance, which associated with muscle growth.

- In 1960s, Atheletes all over the world noticed creatine and reported to be using it as an ergogenic aid. Atheletes including those that were competing in the Olympics. (They were the first ones to try supplemtary creatine, and im pretty sure they would say its safe.)

2) Long and short term Side Effects -

Throughout the years, constant research has been going on about the side effects and long term worries about taking supplemtary creatine. These are some of the researches and the side effects they discovered:

- weight gain.
- Upset Indigestion
- Diarrhea
- Cramping
- Dehydration
(obviously if you didnt know these, then you dont belong here)


- No medical side effects reported in infants/small children with inborn errors in creatine synthesis supplemented 4-8 grams daily for 25 months.

- No medical side effects in gyrate atrophy patients administered 1.5grams daily for 5 years.

- No medical side effects of IV PCR administration in ischemic heart failure patients.

- No medical side effects observed in retrospective studies of athletes taking creatine for 5 years.

3) Further Research -

To insure the medical safety of the long term use of Creatine, 100 NCAA football players volunteered to participate in the research and had no long term side effects.


Players intake an average of 5grams of creatine containing supplements daily for two years. Then, players were administered during the workouts/practices and all accounts were documented. There were some variations amoung each player such as reduced catabolism and increase in dehydration and cramping.

4) Concerns -

There are medical concerns still about creatine:
-Suppressed creatine synthesis
-Muscle/Liver damage
-Increased blood pressure
(these are just concerns that were probably floating around ever since athletes started using creatine ; to this day, we have found that these are nothing more than words and statements.)

Believe it or not, the human body needs creatine. The daily requirement for creatine is 2-3 grams. Diets such as meat, fish, and other animal products is where the human body mainly gets it's daily dose.

Pork has 2.3g of creatine per pound.
Beef has 2.0g of creatine per pound.
Salman has 2.0g of creatine per pound.
Tuna has 1.8g of creatine per pound.

5) Creatine Controversy -

- Those are not often familiar with creatine are the ones call themselves medical experts.
- Side effects have never been reported in scientific/medical literature.
- Comments about creatine should be based on the scientific research and not on false reports, untested hypotheses, and/or speculation.
- They have no solid evidence and research to support their speculation about the bad views on supplemtary creatine.


all my sources were from :
Balsom etail. (study from 1994)
The Biochemists and Human Movement Sciences and Education group at The University of Memphis.
Creatine: The Power Supplement.
and from various other places including personal knowledge.

Ive been taking creatine on and off for about 1.5 years now, and I know that its nothing bad or else I wouldnt be using it. I was very skeptical and unsure if I should be using this stuff, but I think I've done enough homework about this subject. What I found is that it is safe but costly for some. I dont think people take creatine because its cool ; Infact, I'm almost 100% certain.

I think a reason why almost everybody here is against what you said, because you come here without any solid backup to state your opinion ; trying to convince others to see your point of view. Maybe its time you should see it from our point of view.
 
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