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Women and the desire to mate with a high quality man vs. the need to settle down

STR8UP

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When something happens in my life with women it always seems to bring up all sorts of questions I attempt to answer. Last weekend when the engaged chick I dated last year came into town it made me wonder.

At what point does a woman's need to settle down (house, hubby, kids) trump her desire to mate with a high quality man?

Although it really doesn't surprise me, it's kind of funny how a chick can leave a DJ for an AFC when she sees an opportunity to get hitched. Just goes to show how loud that biological clock can be.

It's sad, really, because anyone who knows the REAL score can see the AFC falling into the trap. How long will it last?

I don't know the guy she is engaged to, but putting 2 and 2 together tells me that he is more into her than she is him. Then she comes back into town and it's painfully obvious that she isn't doing this for the right reasons. A recipe for disaster, if you ask me. I talked about this with my business partner who knows both of us and is pretty clued in about women and he agreed with me 100%.

To be honest, she blindsided me when I started to see her attention slip away. I thought I was doing everything right. And chances are I was. I mean, this chick absolutely RAVED about our sex life. She does to this day. PUBLICLY.

If it was that good why didn't she stick around?

The thing that really makes me wonder about this situation is the fact that I have never really seen a woman act this way. Usually she gets tired of my branch and grabs on to another one without looking back. This time around it's as if she wasn't tired of ME she was just at a point where she saw an opportunity to get involved with someone who would give her the commitment.

I'm SURE she saw the likelihood of an engagement coming within a VERY short time after she started seeing this dude, and I'm sure this very much influenced her decision. Notice I say "decision" even though most women don't "decide" these sort of things.

Anyone else have something like this happen?
 

Dash Riprock

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To be honest, she blindsided me when I started to see her attention slip away. I thought I was doing everything right. And chances are I was. I mean, this chick absolutely RAVED about our sex life. She does to this day. PUBLICLY.

If it was that good why didn't she stick around?
This has happened to many on this site, including myself. There is simply no guarantee that being a DJ will work on every chick. Will it increase your odds, weed out losers, hors, gold diggers, etc., YES. But nothing is ever 100%. You simply do the best you can and move on. Easier said than done I know.

Str8up, you don't have your age listed but there's a good chance that you two just grew apart. The changes are always so subtle, 1cm/day, but then you look back 6 mos. a year later and say WOW, we really grew apart--at least she did. Even the best DJ can have blinders on some of the time and NOT see what is happening to him. You take time to regroup and come back a BETTER DJ.

This is the test of true character in a man and DJ: How well do you handle and bounce back from adversity?

This time around it's as if she wasn't tired of ME she was just at a point where she saw an opportunity to get involved with someone who would give her the commitment.
I think you just answered your own question. One thing that's really surprising on this site is how many "posters" think that men and women think alike. It's absolutely ludicrous to believe that. It goes against everything nature intended it to. This being said...

Yes, a woman will leave a man IF she is not getting what she truly desires: a commitment. THis is #1 for MOST (almost all) women. Once again, it's the way they are "wired." This should not surprise anyone here. Some hang around longer than others, and some will leave after the 3rd date if they sniff too much independence/non-commitment-type attitude in the man.

Fact is, in time, MOST women will settle for the stable AFC rather than the uncertainly of the DJ if he cannot commit. This should surprise no one.

A woman's WORST fear is: being alone. In time, she will do anything to avoid it including marrying an AFC. Will she love him? Not the way she loved the DJ--never (as you have described str8up). He will always have her heart. BUT the AFC will have her.
 

STR8UP

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oldsalt said:
Societal pressure to get hitched is loud too. There are even men(?) on this site wanting to "be married". As if it didn't matter to whom.
Yea, she even told me back when we were hanging out that her parents were giving her sh!t about being 33 and unmarried. That's a big part of the reason why I am pretty certain she's involved with this guy for the wrong reasons.

And as for the men who REALLY want to be married, I do believe a lot of them are allowing themselves to be influenced by society a lot more than they would like to admit.

Yeah right. She's still gonna crave sex, and with someone who's good at it. It's only a matter if she'll act on it. The temptation will be there.

That's why being a 'DJ' is a good thing to be. You're the one to help her let go.
Damn, you guys are a bad influence! Or maybe good, depends upon who you ask I suppose
 

Nighthawk

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The modern woman plans to find the perfect man and settle down after she's played the field a bit and wants some kids. Unfortunately men are all pussies these days because they listened to what women said they wanted, so modern woman can't find perfect man.

But she still wants kids, so she settles for a good provider she doesn't respect or find attractive. Once the kids are old enough, or a better provider comes along, she divorces the man, and sometimes takes half his stuff.

There really is no 'settling down' in this timeline, not for very long anyway.
 

Dash Riprock

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I think being a 30+ DJ is a hard road.
Not at all.

With age comes experience.

With experience comes confidence.

With confidence comes...just about everything in life...including FINE women.

I just turned 42, and get more looks now from chicks than when I was 32. I was in Target tonight in Boulder, CO. College town, CU. In 15 minutes I counted 5 women who overly looked my way and smiled. Age range 21-45.

It's f-ing uncanny. I can't explain it except for the fact that I look about 32, work out like a fiend and have a Ken Shamrock-style goat-tee.

Funny how hard we work at becoming a DJ and now find all these reason to diss it.

HELL NO!

I LOVE my DJ-hood.
 

STR8UP

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I think you two are talking about two different things.

Armadon is talking about finding a steady relationship, and Dash is talking about simply attracting attention from women.

I have to say I agree with you both. Being a mature DJ is tough when it comes to finding an LTR because older women (as with the subject of this thread) tend to gravitate toward the AFC who is likely just as desperate as the chick and is willing to settle.

But at the same time, being a mature DJ is GREAT for attracting women in general.

Dude, I bartended in a popular local bar for YEARS when I was in my 20's and in my "prime" (note the sarcasm). And everyone knows the bartender gets attention without even trying. But since I hit my early to mid 30's, I get WAY more attention from women. From age 20 all the way up to late 30's. It's like I blossomed....lol Now the only thing that is slowing me down is my work schedule. Gotta fix that!
 

STR8UP

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oldsalt said:
I just can't believe some of these young women vying for my attention. They don't seem like the "I'm sick of guys my age" types. They seem like normal young women who are getting the warm fuzzies from the presence of an older guy.
It's funny, cause i recently met a chick who had just turned 21. I slipped when she told me my age and framed the whole situation that I WAS old, when normally I do exactly the opposite. So the rest of the night she teased me about my age. But guess what? By the end of the night she had basically initiating a makeout session with me.

And last year I met a 20 yr old who got starry eyed the minute we met. Banged her several times. She was buying me boxer shorts and sh!t on her moms credit card....lol. She's moving to my area at the end of the year for school. Fun, fun.

Ten years ago I would have thought I would be a dried, shriveled up prune by my age, haha.
 

squirrels

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STR8UP said:
This time around it's as if she wasn't tired of ME she was just at a point where she saw an opportunity to get involved with someone who would give her the commitment.
If she wants commitment, and you're not prepared to give it, then you're not compatible with each other.

Same as if you wanted sex, but she kept teasing you and not putting out...you'd leave her for someone else as well.

Don't read too much into it. But you can't have your cake and eat it too...you can't have a committed girl AND play. Unless you find a really special girl. Or keep it a secret forever. :p
 

MatureDJ

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STR8UP said:
At what point does a woman's need to settle down (house, hubby, kids) trump her desire to mate with a high quality man?

Although it really doesn't surprise me, it's kind of funny how a chick can leave a DJ for an AFC when she sees an opportunity to get hitched. Just goes to show how loud that biological clock can be.
Who is to say that the DJ is a "high quality" man? If anything, being "DJ", as I would think that you are implying, means someone who would stray away from her. The sensible woman would much prefer to be a man that will stay with her and raise her children with her, than a higher status man that she may not be able to keep.

STR8UP said:
It's sad, really, because anyone who knows the REAL score can see the AFC falling into the trap. How long will it last?

I don't know the guy she is engaged to, but putting 2 and 2 together tells me that he is more into her than she is him. Then she comes back into town and it's painfully obvious that she isn't doing this for the right reasons. A recipe for disaster, if you ask me. I talked about this with my business partner who knows both of us and is pretty clued in about women and he agreed with me 100%.
Well, once she would have children, her sexual market value will drop a good bit, so even if she were digging down, she would by then be down to his level.

STR8UP said:
To be honest, she blindsided me when I started to see her attention slip away. I thought I was doing everything right. And chances are I was. I mean, this chick absolutely RAVED about our sex life. She does to this day. PUBLICLY.

If it was that good why didn't she stick around?
Obviously, when she totaled it all up, she did not see enough value in you (value being measured in totality, which includes desire to get married.)

STR8UP said:
The thing that really makes me wonder about this situation is the fact that I have never really seen a woman act this way. Usually she gets tired of my branch and grabs on to another one without looking back. This time around it's as if she wasn't tired of ME she was just at a point where she saw an opportunity to get involved with someone who would give her the commitment.

I'm SURE she saw the likelihood of an engagement coming within a VERY short time after she started seeing this dude, and I'm sure this very much influenced her decision. Notice I say "decision" even though most women don't "decide" these sort of things.
Did she ever have a talk about you getting "serious"? Perhaps she just saw you as not the marrying type, and therefore did not even try to have the talk, and just decided to quit seeing you.

She may very well have been at the point where she said that she needed to settle down, and she settled for the first guy that seemed to indicate that he wanted to do so as well.

You make it sound like this guy is some type of a loser, but it seems to me that he has the intimate relationship with her that you wish you had.
 

STR8UP

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MatureDJ said:
Who is to say that the DJ is a "high quality" man? If anything, being "DJ", as I would think that you are implying, means someone who would stray away from her.
Not sure where you got that from. A DJ is a desirable male, nothing more.

The sensible woman would much prefer to be a man that will stay with her and raise her children with her, than a higher status man that she may not be able to keep.
That would be the case if women were "sensible" but we all know how they are often slaves to their emotions.

That's what this thread was all about. The fact that a woman's "need" to have a family can trump her desire to mate with a higher quality male.

What was Pooks saying? "A woman would rather share a high quality man than have a loser all to herself" or something like that....

Obviously, when she totaled it all up, she did not see enough value in you (value being measured in totality, which includes desire to get married.)
Do you really believe that this is a conscious decision? I'm not saying it ISN'T, just posing the question because I pondered it myself.

Did she ever have a talk about you getting "serious"? Perhaps she just saw you as not the marrying type, and therefore did not even try to have the talk, and just decided to quit seeing you.
We didn't ever talk about it. I think she might have dropped a couple of half assed hints to test the waters, but there was never an official "talk".

She may very well have been at the point where she said that she needed to settle down, and she settled for the first guy that seemed to indicate that he wanted to do so as well.
That's my theory.

You make it sound like this guy is some type of a loser, but it seems to me that he has the intimate relationship with her that you wish you had.
Loser? I have no idea. Typical male who shows WAY too much interest WAY too early? Absolutely. I know that because he asked her to marry him within about 6 months.

And no, I don't want what he has. I actually feel sorry for him. This chick was on her last strike even though our relationship was primarily sexual. This chick would drink too much and get SUPER jealous, and she had no right to be that way with me. I can't imagine what she would be like if she was in a committed relationship.
 

STR8UP

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MatureDJ said:
It is quite unlikely that a woman with children would be able to "trade up". She certainly would not be interested in trading up for a better "provider" (she would have married the AFC good provider.) The higher value man would not be interested in a woman with baggage. And especially if she would dump her husband when the kids would be old enough (she would be into cougar territory by then.)
She was married once. i don't see her having a good enough track record to stay in a faithful and committed relationship. I would bet that she's gonna cheat during the marriage, and I would give it a few years max and it's gonna fall apart. But I could be wrong....
 

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My opinion is that if you bring out enough AFCness from the beginning, she'll see you as marriage material. That means all the "romantic" stuff that shows you're committed: flowers, calling to ask how her day was, gifts, helping her move, telling her how much you care for her, etc. Which essentially brings her a whirlwind of emotions as she falls in love with getting married. That's when she essentially initiates "the talk" as she knows for certain you're interested in the long haul and doesn't risk embarassment. Now, if all you're doing is sexing her up and hanging out a couple days a week, it's not going to happen that way (or that quickly).
 

jophil28

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AFCs are popular with those women who want marriage or an LTR because those guys can be CONTROLLED.
She will willingly have a hot and heavy relationship with a DJ /alpha guy/ bad boy but will finally "settle" for a sweet obedient chump -
You may think that this situation applies only to young single women who are looking for a GOOD PROVIDER and a RELIABLE husband and father ,however I still see 50 year old divorced cougars doing exactly the same thing -
Go Figure !
 

Rollo Tomassi

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Schedules of Mating

Reposted for your consideration -

What you have here is a classic Schedules of Mating dillema.

All you're describing is methods women have used for centuries to ensure that the best male's genes are selected and secured with the best male provisioning she's capable of attracting. Rarely do the two exist in the same male (particularly these days) so in the interest of achieving her biological imperative, and prompted by a biologicaly seated need for security, the feminine develops social conventions and methodologies (which change as her conditions change) to effect this. And, in light of advances in decoding the human genetic code, this old methodology is being uncovered in earnest for the first time. Men are not only up against a female genetic imperative, but also centuries long feminine social conventions established from a time long before human beings could accurately determine genetic origins.

I've aleady detailed in many prior posts that mate selection is a psycho-biological function that our millenias of evolution has hardwired into both sexes. So internalized and socialized is this process into our collective psyches that we rarely recognize that we're subject to these motivators even when we continually repeat the same behaviors manifested by them. So saying that we're not subject to conditions we're not, or are only vaguely aware of, is a bit naive. It also belies our own motivations - meaning that when a woman says "I don't know why I cheated on him, he was so perfect" she may actually be telling the truth; she literally doesn't know.

It's simple deductive logic to follow that for a species to survive it must provide it's offspring with the best possible conditions to ensure it's survival - either that or to reproduce in such quantity that it ensures survival. The obvious application of this for women is sharing parental investment with the best possible mate her own genetics allow her to attract and who can provide long term security for her and their potential offspring. Thus women are the filters of their own reproduction where as men's reproductive methodology is to scatter as much of his genetic material as humanly possible to the widest available quantity of fertile females. He of course has his own criteria for mating selection and determining the best genetic hosts for his reproduction (i.e. she's gotta be hot), but this criteria is certainly less discriminating than that for women (i.e. no one's ugly after 2am). This is evidenced in our own hormonal biology; men posess 17 times the amount of testosterone women do and women produce substantially more estrogen and oxytocin than men. Also, women only ovulate in 28 day cycles meaning that their optimal hormone levels for reproduction peak about once every 3 weeks.

That stated, both of these methodologies conflict in practice. For a woman to best ensure the survival of her young, a man must necessarily abandon his method of reproduction. This then sets an imperative for him to pair with a woman who will satisfy his methodology (a lot of sexual availability). A male must sacrifice his reproduction schedule to satisfy that of the woman he pairs with. With so much genetic potential at stake on his part of the risk, he want's not only to ensure that she is the best possible candidate for breeding with, but also to know that his progeny will benefit from both parents involvement.

Social Convention

To counter this subconscious dynamic to their own genetic advantage women initiate social conventions and psychological schemas to better facilitate their own breeding methodologies. This is why women always have the "prerogative to change her mind" so the most fickle of behaviors become socially excusable, while men's behavior is constrained to a higher standard to "do the right thing" which is invarably to the advantage of a woman. She is excused for her methodology while he is derided for his own. This is why guys who are 'Players', and fathers who abandon mothers and children to pursue their innate reproduction method are villains, and fathers who selflessly sacrifice themselves financially, emotionally and life decision-wise are considered heroes for complying with women's genetic imperatives.

This is also the root motivation for female-specific social dynamics such as LJBF type rejections, women's propensity for victimhood (as they've learned that this engenders 'savior' mental schemas for men's breeding schedules - Capn' Save a Ho) and even marriage itself.

Good Dads vs Good Genes

The two greatest difficulties for women to overcome in their own methodology is that they are only at a sexually viable peak for a short window of time (generally their 20s) and the fact that the qualities that make a good long term partner (the Good Dad) and the qualities that make for good breeding stock (Good Genes) rarely manifest themselves in the same male. Provisioning and security potential are fantastic motivators for pairing with a Good Dad, but the same characteristics that make him such are generally a disadvantage when compared with the man who better exemplifies genetic, physical attraction and the risk taking qualities that would imbue her child with a better capacity to adapt to it's environment (i.e stronger, faster, more attractive than others to ensure the passing of her own genetic material to future generations). This is the Jerk vs. Nice Guy paradox writ large on an evolutionary scale.

Men and women innately (though unconsciously) understand this dynamic (which we euphemistically call her "biological clock" - yet another social convention), so in order for a woman to have the best that the Good Dad has to offer while taking advantage of the best that the Good Genes man has, she must either find a man that best exemplifies both these characteristics or invent and constantly modify social conventions to keep the advantage in her biological favor.

Reproductive Schedules

This paradox then necessitates that women (and by defalut men) must subscribe to short term and long term schdules of mating. Short term schedules facilitate breeding with the Good Genes male, while long term breeding is reserved the Good Dad male. This convention and the psycho-social schemas that accompany it are precisely why women will marry the Nice Guy, stable, loyal, dependable (preferably) doctor and still ƒuck the pool boy or the cute surfer she met on spring break. In our genetic past a male with good genes implied an ability to be a good provider by means of physical prowess, but modern convention has thwarted this so new social and mental schemas had to be developed for women.

Cheating

For this dynamic and the practicality of enjoying the best of both genetic worlds, women find it necessary to 'cheat'. This cheating can be done proactively or reactively.

In the reactive model, a woman who has already paired with her long term partner choice, engages in an extramarital or pairing, sexual intercourse with a short term partner (i.e. the classic cheating wife or girlfriend). That's not to say this short term opportunity cannot develop into a 2nd, long term mate, but the action itself is a method for securing better genetic stock (by her perception) than the committed male provider is capable of supplying.

Proactive cheating is the single Mommy dillema. This form of 'cheating' relies on the woman breeding with a Good Genes male, bearing his children and then abandoning him, or having him abandon her, (again through invented social conventions) in order to find a Good Dad male to provide for her and the children of her Good Genes partner to ensure their security. The feminine facilitates this through invented social mores that positively affirm a man for "stepping up to the plate" and helping the "poor woman victimized by the villainous ex" share in a parental investment that was never his burden.

I want to stress again that (most) women do not have some consciously recognized, master plan to enact this cycle and deliberately trap men into it. Rather the motivations for this behavior and the accompanying rationales invented to justify it are an unconscious process. I fervently believe that for the most part, women are unaware of this dynamic, but are nonetheless subject to it's influence. For a female of any species to facilitate a methodology for breeding with the best genetic partner she's able to attract AND to ensure her own and her offspring's survival with the best provisioning partner; this is an evolutionary jackpot.
 

Rollo Tomassi

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The Cuckold

On some level of consciousness, men innately sense something is wrong with this situation, though they may not be able to place why they feel it or misunderstand it in the confusion of women's justifications for it. Or they become frustrated by the social pressures to 'do the right thing' and are shamed into martyrdom/savior-hood and committed by implied responsibility for these conventions. Nevertheless, some see it well enough to stear clear of single mothers, etiher by prior experience or observing other male cuckolds saddled with the responsibility of raising and providing for - no matter how involved or uninvolved - another man's successful reproduction efforts with this woman.

The man in this position is (or at the very least interpreted as) a Cuckold. He will never enjoy the same benefits as his mates short term partner(s) to the same degree, in the way of sexual desire or immediacy of it, while at the same time enduring the social pressures of having to provide for this Good Genes father's progeny. It can be argued that he may contibute minimally to their wellfare, but on some level, whether emotional, physical, financial or educational he will contribute some effort for another man's genetic material in exchange for limited forms of sexuality/intimacy from the mother. To some degree, (even if only by his presence) he is sharing the parental investment that should be borne by the short term partner. If nothing else, he contibutes the time and effort to her he could be better invested in finding a sexual partner with which he could pursue his own genetic imperative by his own methodology. It is simply not worth his effort to couple with a single mother when compared to a woman without children.

However, needless to say, there is no shortage of men sexually deprived enough to 'see past' the long term disadvantages, and not only rewarding, but reinforcing a single mother's bad decisions with regard to her breeding selections and schedules in exchange for short term sexual gratification. It's important to bear in mind that in this age women are ultimately, soley responsible for the men they choose to mate with (baring rape of course) AND giving birth to their children. Men do bear responsibility for their actions no doubt, but it is ultimately the decision of the female and her judgement that decides her and her children's fate.
 

Rollo Tomassi

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STR8UP said:
At what point does a woman's need to settle down (house, hubby, kids) trump her desire to mate with a high quality man?

Although it really doesn't surprise me, it's kind of funny how a chick can leave a DJ for an AFC when she sees an opportunity to get hitched. Just goes to show how loud that biological clock can be.
There is no biological clock. This is yet another operative social convention that's permeated our social consciousness. When a woman (and pitiably now men) talk about their 'biological clock' ticking it's really a euphemism for women finally, and realistically, recognizing the fact that as women age their sexual marketability declines, while as a man ages his sexual marketability increases. The Biological Clock moment is really a Psychological Clock moment. As feminine competition becomes progressively more difficult for her to compete for male attention with the next year's 22 y.o. girls, she realizes a need to secure long term provisioning and security. Therefore we get cutesy code-speak like 'biological clocks' to soften the harshness of her condition; and guys, particularly AFCs, who potentially stand to sexually benefit (finally) from nodding in agreement are all too happy to accept her terminology.
 

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STR8UP said:
Although it really doesn't surprise me, it's kind of funny how a chick can leave a DJ for an AFC when she sees an opportunity to get hitched. Just goes to show how loud that biological clock can be.

It's sad, really, because anyone who knows the REAL score can see the AFC falling into the trap. How long will it last?
That bell tolls loud enough to drown out rational thinking. That's for damned sure. The rub here brother, is that once she's got the AFC on the line and the hook so far up his ass he's helpless without her, who is she going to drive all over town to have throw her up against a wall and point her toes to Jesus? That's right, the Don Juan man. Guys like us will get the call while the AFC is home content with smelling the crotch of her panties.

You shouldn't be surprised or alarmed by the ex girlfriends decision. It just shows her priority is to be financially secure. D1ck can come later.
 

STR8UP

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Rollo Tomassi said:
There is no biological clock. This is yet another operative social convention that's permeated our social consciousness. When a woman (and pitiably now men) talk about their 'biological clock' ticking it's really a euphemism for women finally, and realistically, recognizing the fact that as women age their sexual marketability declines, while as a man ages his sexual marketability increases. The Biological Clock moment is really a Psychological Clock moment. As feminine competition becomes progressively more difficult for her to compete for male attention with the next year's 22 y.o. girls, she realizes a need to secure long term provisioning and security. Therefore we get cutesy code-speak like 'biological clocks' to soften the harshness of her condition; and guys, particularly AFCs, who potentially stand to sexually benefit (finally) from nodding in agreement are all too happy to accept her terminology.
So what you are saying is that it's only a woman's competitive drive that creates a stronger urge to settle down with a man? Basically "I'm not getting any younger" kind of deal?

The fact that women have a limited shelf life in the reproductive game HAS to play a big part in it as well.
 
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