Why Do Machines Suck?

[CarlitosWay]

Why Do Machines Suck?

Everyone has their list but no one's willing to look at their list backwards. People have to get away from the dogma that it's all free weights or all machines. They can have sex. You can do both.

By the way, when's the last time you heard of someone tearing a pec on a bench press machine? It's not ****ing happening.

So let's make a list real quick of what people would consider the negatives of machine training.

1. Your "stabilizer" muscles won't fire. Well, what if my rotator cuff is ****ed up? Maybe I don't want to stabilize. Now I can bench on a machine, I don't need to worry about my rotator cuff, and I can still get my triceps and pecs working. The stabilization is taken care of by the machine. That's a positive.

2. Limited range of motion. I'm calling bull**** immediately. Take someone who weighs 300 pounds with a big gut and watch him bench press. That's a limited range of motion. Put that sucker on a Hammer Strength bench press and he'll get five times more range. Besides, what's wrong with limited range of motion? Are we saying pin pulls, partial reps, lockouts, or any other partial movement with free weights are worthless, too?

3. You're only working one muscle group. What if I want to work one muscle group? Let's say my triceps are weak and it's something I want to bring up. Sure, I can do it with a close-grip bench, but I don't want to over-stimulate my CNS and do movements that will make it harder to recover. So I'm going to find something that increases my work capacity but doesn't put a big demand on my recovery. Bingo. Triceps push-down machine.

And what if I want to bring my chest up? It's much easier to do it with a machine fly to take my shoulders and triceps out of the picture. ****, now I'm using a machine to correct an imbalance. That's crazy, right?

4. Your central nervous system doesn't get as activated. I'm not sure how you can prove or disprove that any exercise is going to have more of an effect on the CNS than another exercise. That's dependent on the demands placed on the body. But let's say that a machine places less demand on the CNS. Is there not a time in training where that would become optimal? Like during a de-load? Would it be better to take a week off and not go to the gym? I say do some machines with higher reps, get some blood in the muscle, and give your CNS a break.

5. You can't go heavy. This is the dumbest thing ever. Heavy is relative to the person lifting the weight. I love when people say they like to lift heavy **** and then they go and bench 185. That's heavy? To who? And have you seen people load up a leg press? That's heavy, man.

6. It's the lazy approach to training. The lazy approach is taking a week off or not going to the gym.

Great article...excerpt taken from here.. http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article_issue/issue_633#dave-tate-talkin-trash

Pretty much my same views. A lot of people shun machines, yet machine + free weight work is how I roll and I feel at times they are as valuable as free weights.

 

[CaptainJ]

I read that article too, Dave Tate is on the money. Machines do have uses in training. It was also interesting when he talks about simple versus complicated routines and how you can't keep it simple forever.

Personally I don't see a use for machines in my own training, since I'm a beginner and don't suffer from overtraining or imbalances, and I'm sure this applies for many other beginners. But when you are an intermediate lifter, I can see machines serving a greater purpose in a program.

The only problem I have with machines though is when people think they are a substitute for free weights and you get a lot of new gym goers being sucked into the mindset of cycling through machines in an easy workout (this used to be me), without having programs based around the big 3 lifts. They create large misconceptions about what weight training is truly about, which is why I think machines should be left to the intermediates.

 

[CarlitosWay]

I read that article too, Dave Tate is on the money. Machines do have uses in training. It was also interesting when he talks about simple versus complicated routines and how you can't keep it simple forever.

Personally I don't see a use for machines in my own training, since I'm a beginner and don't suffer from overtraining or imbalances, and I'm sure this applies for many other beginners. But when you are an intermediate lifter, I can see machines serving a greater purpose in a program.

The only problem I have with machines though is when people think they are a substitute for free weights and you get a lot of new gym goers being sucked into the mindset of cycling through machines in an easy workout (this used to be me), without having programs based around the big 3 lifts. They create large misconceptions about what weight training is truly about, which is why I think machines should be left to the intermediates.

Yeah but some people have a goal to get big as possible. Yet would one really take anything away from a person if they built it all solely on machines? Say some little teen trained blood,sweat and tears when using machines and ate like a horse day in day out and built up to some monstrous weights on those machines over 4-5 + years and coming out being some one who would stand out real easily in public.

Could one really look at him and say, nope sorry you didn't really use free weights so all that work doesn't really count and you're not "functional". I think a lot of people think too highly of themselves coming off pretty much pompous/conceited if they do something this or that way. We're all different and have various goals.

I mean some people are never going to compete in powerlifting, some people are never going to be in a bodybuilding show.

Machines are not a means to an end neither are free weights. Yet I think from beginner to the advanced they have their benefits. Ask a kid on his first day in the gym to flex his triceps, hamstrings/quads or lats. Watch him squirm and fidget. Now walk him over to some machines that isolate those muscles and show him how to contract those muscles properly.

Now when you tell him to do a proper chin up and to contract his lats/biceps to help him get up he'll understand or when doing deadlifts how to engage the lats/upperback, glutes/hamstrings he'll know!!!

 

[EFFORT]

Good post

 

[CaptainJ]

Ask a kid on his first day in the gym to flex his triceps, hamstrings/quads or lats. Watch him squirm and fidget. Now walk him over to some machines that isolate those muscles and show him how to contract those muscles properly.

Now when you tell him to do a proper chin up and to contract his lats/biceps to help him get up he'll understand or when doing deadlifts how to engage the lats/upperback, glutes/hamstrings he'll know!!!

Good point, when i first started machine training, I too didn't really know how to flex my muscles, so the isolation did give me a feel for it. Hell machines can even be good for some muscle activation before one of your big lifts.

Regardless, I would still focus a new kid on doing squats, deadlifts and bench press, because those exercises are integral to a program whatever your goals are, be it strength, muscle or fat loss. They are top priority and have no substitute when it comes to training.

 

[Mr.Fantastic]

Anybody who would need this article will be a beginner. Machines have no use to a beginner. Machines are for correcting muscle imbalances of advanced lifters. As bodybuilding is obsessed with symmetry, this can be obtained by finely chiseling the muscles with machines. This is what they are for. At some point somebody realised that there was great commercial value in offering them as a full workout for newbies, since they are very safe to use, and since newbies dont realise that they are not very useful.

If you want to put on muscle you should use free weights - they are the most effective way of building muscle and strength. While you may get 'some' benefit from using machines, you will be spending a LOT longer in the gym for a fraction of the benefit that a quick full body free weights workout will give you. If that is what you wish to do - bust your ass twice as hard for half the gain - then by all means use them...

Advanced lifters who may have muscle imbalances or injuries can use machines to their advantage, but they will know what needs doing and know what machines best suit their needs (or they will be in a better position to find out). If somebody who has never trained before is using machines as their only source of lifting then they are essentially wasting their time. They will make up excuses because they are afraid to use free weights (it can be intimidating and scary going into the free weight room with the muscle bound guys in there - but i assure you they will respect you for being there and will not laugh at you for trying - in fact they will have contempt for the people on machines!).

You can say what you like in favour of machines, but unless you know what you are talking about and have been training for a few years then they really have no place for you.

most commercial 'gyms' provide lots of machines for cardio and weights that, while very safe, do not give you a very good workout at all. They are easy to use and easy to spend a long time using without getting tired. This way people think they are getting a good workout - easier than free weights and easier than running outside! People pay their gym membership every month safe in the knowledge that they are 'working out' regularly. Now, since they have been good today and been to the gym, its probably ok to have that KFC and several beers....

 

[Kerpal]

Depends on your goals. Someone who trains only with machines will not be close to as strong moving heavy **** around outside the gym as someone who only uses free weights.

If you're only training for looks I guess it's OK but I still don't see the point of a beginner using them. And most of the people here are beginners.

Gym owners wouldn't spend thousands of dollars on machines if they weren't at least somewhat useful.

Not necessarily. Gym owners are out to make money, not to make you strong. Machines are much better for business than free weights are, but not for getting strong.

 

[Mr.Fantastic]

Thanks for posting...



The arguments AGAINST machines have always made no sense to me..."fixed plane" and "stablizer muscles" are beyond me...they mean nothing to me.

thats a bit of a ridiculous statement. why not look up these terms and find out why they are important? too lazy? prefer to be ignorant.

What you said is like somebody saying, 'oxygen has no use to human beings, the arguments for it make no sense to me...'respiratory system' and 'red and blue blood cells', thats all beyond me'

DUUUHHHHHHHHGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[CarlitosWay]

Anybody who would need this article will be a beginner. Machines have no use to a beginner. Machines are for correcting muscle imbalances of advanced lifters. As bodybuilding is obsessed with symmetry, this can be obtained by finely chiseling the muscles with machines. This is what they are for. At some point somebody realised that there was great commercial value in offering them as a full workout for newbies, since they are very safe to use, and since newbies dont realise that they are not very useful.

Machines have a good use for beginners alongside free weights. I outlined this very CLEARLY, you're reading comprehension is horrible. Newbies not realizing they are not very useful? lol c'mon seriously. You're spewing hot bull**** left and right.

If you want to put on muscle you should use free weights - they are the most effective way of building muscle and strength. While you may get 'some' benefit from using machines, you will be spending a LOT longer in the gym for a fraction of the benefit that a quick full body free weights workout will give you. If that is what you wish to do - bust your ass twice as hard for half the gain - then by all means use them...

so now we're going to equate machines to being time consuming worthless contraptions that regardless how hard you work on you'll only get 1/2 the results? LOL If I start only shoulder pressing 120 lbs on a machine for reps and over a few months ramp up the weight to the whole stack and have to chain a 25 lb dumbbell to the mother****er is it not going to effectively hit my shoulders? and yeah you better be right my shoulders are going to be stimulated beyond belief and will grow also, given the right amount of calories is provided.

Advanced lifters who may have muscle imbalances or injuries can use machines to their advantage, but they will know what needs doing and know what machines best suit their needs (or they will be in a better position to find out). If somebody who has never trained before is using machines as their only source of lifting then they are essentially wasting their time. They will make up excuses because they are afraid to use free weights (it can be intimidating and scary going into the free weight room with the muscle bound guys in there - but i assure you they will respect you for being there and will not laugh at you for trying - in fact they will have contempt for the people on machines!).

Real laughable... afraid to use free weights? if some body sucks ass and has horrible form on a barbell bench press, while he's learning, he can be hammering some extra work on a machine pressing variant and it's not going to hinder him in any way ....He can overload muscles safely using the machine and continue to get his form down on free weights. I mean it seems when I talk about machines people are jumping the gun and all they hear is "machines, machines, machines" I've said it before and I'll say it again, one should utilize both if their goal is to get big as possible. I don't know what kind of gyms you go to, but in mine you'll see the biggest guys using free weights and machines, well cause they're all tools for one to use.

You can say what you like in favour of machines, but unless you know what you are talking about and have been training for a few years then they really have no place for you.

So one must train X amount of years before they can use machines?...schucks!!!!! who the **** makes these rules?


most commercial 'gyms' provide lots of machines for cardio and weights that, while very safe, do not give you a very good workout at all. They are easy to use and easy to spend a long time using without getting tired. This way people think they are getting a good workout - easier than free weights and easier than running outside! People pay their gym membership every month safe in the knowledge that they are 'working out' regularly. Now, since they have been good today and been to the gym, its probably ok to have that KFC and several beers....

I don't train like normal people and the people I advise I tell them to ramp up weights as heavy as they can go and maintain good form on whatever the **** they're using be it machine or free weights I DON'T CARE and leave blood,sweat and tears on that *****. Getting a good session is based solely on the individual and the intensity he pushes himself with. What they use has no baring on this (given they have a proper bodybuilding or other solid routine). lol @ the randomness you brought into my thread.

You're full of **** buddy. I'll continue to use free weights and machines and will also keep helping newbies reach their goals this way also. You can keep being conceited and believe in prehistoric dogmas.

 

[Mr.Fantastic]

I don't train like normal people and the people I advise I tell them to ramp up weights as heavy as they can go and maintain good form on whatever the **** they're using be it machine or free weights I DON'T CARE and leave blood,sweat and tears on that *****. Getting a good session is based solely on the individual and the intensity he pushes himself with. What they use has no baring on this (given they have a proper bodybuilding or other solid routine). lol @ the randomness you brought into my thread.

You're full of **** buddy. I'll continue to use free weights and machines and will also keep helping newbies reach their goals this way also. You can keep being conceited and believe in prehistoric dogmas.

The anger in the above statement is ridiculous. 'I dont train like normal people'??!?? what are you then?? superhuman??? 'Good form on machines'??? how do you have FORM on a machine for chrissakess???
......................................................................

To anybody who is just getting into weight lifting I recommend that you read from reliable published sources for your information. The poster above seems to be quite angry and have an enormous bias. There is no need for a beginner to supplement with machines, as you will learn from credible sources. I only wish to help new lifters out as I know what it is like to wade through lots of false information. The most effective way to grow is to use free weights for functional strength and mass. If you do this then there is no need for machines.

I also know that it is indeed intimidating to go into the weight room the first few times not knowing exactly what you are doing. I stated this to let people know that it need not be as intimidating and let them know that people will respect their efforts.

The bottom line is to research good sources of information and make up your own mind.

 

[CarlitosWay]

The anger in the above statement is ridiculous. 'I dont train like normal people'??!?? what are you then?? superhuman??? 'Good form on machines'??? how do you have FORM on a machine for chrissakess???
......................................................................

a lot of People do stupid **** on free weights and machines or have horrendous form. It doesn't matter. What I mean by I don't train like normal people, is I go in and make sure my session is constructed with PURPOSE. I don't go in like a normal person and just go through the ****in' motions. GOT THAT? This is what I aim to instill in people.

Post up a picture!! Show me a physique. Do you have ANYTHING to back up what you say? guys like fuglydude, colossus, jitterbug and EFFORT I don't have to question. Cause I know they're not full of **** and fuglydude has pictures backing him up, I've seen jitterbugs vids too.

I question some people here and challenge them, no one dares to post up pictures. WHY ?!?!?! WHY? They then make up excuses, oh I'm not about bodybuilding/you must be gay, blah blah blah.....load of ****.

EDIT: I'm not angry, it's a lively debate and this is after all an internet forum. lol I'm more entertained by all this more than anything...

 

[Kerpal]

It all depends on your goals.

If you want to be strong on anything other than a weight machine, the vast majority of your training should be with free weights. The guys with the best physiques may be using machines, but the strongest guys can be found by the squat racks.

One thing I think is very telling is the fact that if you get your big free weight lifts up, you'll be able to move a hell of a lot more weight on the machines, but it doesn't really work that well the other way around.

 

[Jitterbug]

One thing I think is very telling is the fact that if you get your big free weight lifts up, you'll be able to move a hell of a lot more weight on the machines, but it doesn't really work that well the other way around.

A big "bodybuilder" fella (about 100~110kg, 6') at my gym could easily leg press 400kg (that's the limit of the machine) for over 10 reps, but he couldn't back squat more than 100kg without falling over. His deadlift & rows are also pretty sh1t. He's only good at bench press.

I could leg press 300kg 2x10 when my back squat was 100kg x2. That's 8 months ago. I think I can do 400kg now, but can't be bothered loading up so many plates. Like most people, I don't have that much time to spend at the gym, so I use the exercises that give me best results for my time: those are all free weight ones.

I'm glad that other guys are sticking to machines. That means I never have to queue for the power rack.

 

[Julius_Seizeher]

I use both free weights and machines. Since I messed up my knees in the Marine Corps, I don't like to squat and put sh!tloads of weight on them. Also, I don't know if it's because I have long arms, but I have always had trouble isolating my pecs, until I discovered Flys. My chest has exploded since I started doing Flys a year ago.

 

[CaptainJ]

I'm glad that other guys are sticking to machines. That means I never have to queue for the power rack.

Now this is why I LOVE machines

 

[Da Realist]

Machines are cool for rehabilitation, but for the most part I would choose free weights and body weight exercises. Some years ago, I used I guess what was a Smith Machine for squats; either way it had cables, a pulley system, and hooks to lock the bar at certain places. I got to point where I could back squat 400 lbs and thought I was tough ****. I then decided to try it on a regular rack to see if there was a difference: I didn't make on rep at the same weight.

After that I made it up that even if I looked weak from the get go, training with free weights was the best route because 215 or whatever weight is going to be 215. My body would get used to stabilizing my body and the weight on the bar and I would come away feeling a firmness through out. Also, and this may be more of a football mentality, but I wouldn't be sitting or lying down unless it was absolutely necessary for the exercise.

 

[CarlitosWay]

A big "bodybuilder" fella (about 100~110kg, 6') at my gym could easily leg press 400kg (that's the limit of the machine) for over 10 reps, but he couldn't back squat more than 100kg without falling over. His deadlift & rows are also pretty sh1t. He's only good at bench press.

I could leg press 300kg 2x10 when my back squat was 100kg x2. That's 8 months ago. I think I can do 400kg now, but can't be bothered loading up so many plates. Like most people, I don't have that much time to spend at the gym, so I use the exercises that give me best results for my time: those are all free weight ones.

I'm glad that other guys are sticking to machines. That means I never have to queue for the power rack.

230-240 lbs @ 6 ft is pretty damn big. There's a thing called proficiency though, I'm sure he could double, triple his weights used after learning the free weight movements better no problem. Yet I guess that doesn't really get put into the equation when the pro-free weights only crowd look at some big guy loading up massive weights on a machine.

 

[Jitterbug]

Squatting double or triple bodyweight isn't that easy, mate. Few lifters could manage double, very very few could do triple. Outside of Olympic lifters, who could do triple or quadruple, I haven't really seen any.

I'm sure that big fella could manage more than 100kg if he fixes his sh1tty technique & flexibility issues, but he won't magically squat 200kg just because of that.

 

[Quiksilver]

Wouldn't say they suck ...

Here's the comparison:

Guy A trains with machines for 5 years.

Guy B trains (same exercises) with freeweights for 5 years.

Guy B will be bigger and stronger generally.

Freeweights mobilizes core muscles and utilize your posterior chain far more than machines, in which you are in a fixed position and seated more often than not.

Machines have their place, but shouldn't IMO be the core of your program. That should always be reserved for Back squat, Deadlift, Flat bench, and military press.

 

[CarlitosWay]

Wouldn't say they suck ...

Here's the comparison:

Guy A trains with machines for 5 years.

Guy B trains (same exercises) with freeweights for 5 years.

Guy B will be bigger and stronger generally.

Freeweights mobilizes core muscles and utilize your posterior chain far more than machines, in which you are in a fixed position and seated more often than not.

Machines have their place, but shouldn't IMO be the core of your program. That should always be reserved for Back squat, Deadlift, Flat bench, and military press.

Exactly my point, some people act as if you throw in a few machines mixed in with free weights it's pointless, hell nautilus/hammerstrength makes some of the best machines I have ever tried. I have a friend who dead lifts, barbell presses a lot, free weight squats every week. Yet well throw in machine squats (if hips are feeling beat up from barbell squats) and smith machine incline presses, which aren't as draining to stimulate more muscle and get more frequency in.

Hell smith machines are probably one of the best ways to do close grip/reverse grip bench presses in. As you can push up and against the rack.

I'm just tired of hearing stupid bull**** about machines. hell look in RMM's journal and he's doing heavy back squats followed by hack squat machine widow makers.

On my first post in my journal I got **** cause I posted a day where I happened to use a good amount of machines. Yet no one knew what I did on a daily basis when in the gym. One day I could go in use all free weights, another day and only 2 exercises are. Than day after that I might use mostly machines.

Yates used hack squats/leg press/leg curls, decline and low incline barbell bench presses, overhead ez bar tri extensions/machine tri extensions, dumbbell shoulder presses, machine pullovers, machine pulldowns, machine rows, barbell rows, dls (top portion only to to hit lower back), weighted hyper extensions, standing heavy ez bar curls, seated incline db curls, seated db lateral raises/standing cable lateral raises,

This is a good example of a nice mesh regarding machines+free weight, pretty similar to how I train.

Hell Tate has blown up recently and is looking real good/lean/aesthetic. Going through his logs you'll see a lot more machine work + better nutrition, powerlifting just left him beat the **** up.

I didn't create this thread to tell people machines are superior to free weights or that free weights are superior to machines. I see them on a level ground. Based on the individual they can be both awesome tools.

Yet who wouldn't want to have their own power rack at home with a barbell and 500 + lbs in plates, adjustable plated loaded dumbbells and a few good machines?