Hello Friend,

If this is your first visit to SoSuave, I would advise you to START HERE.

It will be the most efficient use of your time.

And you will learn everything you need to know to become a huge success with women.

Thank you for visiting and have a great day!

When is best to go down on a girl and her to go down on you?

Guitar_Whizz

Master Don Juan
Joined
Apr 22, 2002
Messages
987
Reaction score
188
Location
UK
his is a question regarding escalating to sex with a girl.

In the Vin DiCarlo escalation ladder., it states that when you've isolated a girl to a sex location, you go through the following steps (in the space of between 5 and 15 minutes):-

Kissing
Kissing neck
Touch bare skin of her back
Stomach to stomach contact
Kissing her body
Incidentally stimulating her vagina
Fingering her from behind
Stimulating her vagina from the front (penetrate with fingers)
Penetration.

However, as you can see, it doesn't say anything about going down on a girl (as in stimulating her **** with your tongue). It also doesn't say anything about when to get her to suck your penis. Am I missing something here?

So my question is, when is the best point to go down on a girl, to avoid any resistance? Too soon=resistance, too late and it's blown, I dunno. I'd guess after penetrating her with my fingers would be the best point to go down on her, but I'm not 100% sure, so can those who are more sexually experienced enlighten me?

Also, what about her sucking your ****? When is the best point in the escalation to have her do this, and what's the best way to initiate this? Should I go down on her first, or should she go down on me first? And should this be done before or after my **** has been inside her?

I want to get this in the correct order so that I avoid any chance of LMR (last minute resistance), so please answer only if you've had actual sexual experience and not just read about it!

Thanks.
 

woods

Senior Don Juan
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
306
Reaction score
3
Age
48
Preferably soon after a shower. I wont go down unless she's taken a shower within the last couple hours. If she's quality, she will stop you, if she doesnt think she's "fresh" enough. Don't worry about LMR. But if you do, do it before penetration.

I don't believe in that ladder of escalation. It depends on the situation.

It basicly goes: Make out, start fondling boobs, maybe start fingering, depending on what she's wearing, start removing clothes, kiss various parts of newly exposed body. when your both naked, then you can go down if you want. She will stick your schlong in her mouth when she's ready, but it's good to go down on her first, to get her maximally turned on.
 

Warrior74

Master Don Juan
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
5,128
Reaction score
228
you don't need a guide for this. Your a man, do whatever you feel like doing once the clothing comes off. your in charge.
 

Guitar_Whizz

Master Don Juan
Joined
Apr 22, 2002
Messages
987
Reaction score
188
Location
UK
Warrior74 said:
you don't need a guide for this. Your a man, do whatever you feel like doing once the clothing comes off. your in charge.
You've missed the point. You DO need a correct order to do this stuff in, otherwise you'll encounter LMR.

The Vin DiCarlo escalation ladder is designed in such a way to minimise the chances of LMR.

So you can't just do things in any order you want, because you'll get LMR if you do.
 

ready123

Master Don Juan
Joined
Nov 16, 2007
Messages
1,260
Reaction score
35
Location
Los Angeles
oral sex is not in the ladder because it's unnecessary and sometimes even if there's no LMR, the girl still might not be receptive to it or willing to give

if you want to go down on her, do it after stimulating her, once clothes are off. if you want her to go down on you, you need to calibrate and that's beyond the scope of the ladder

also, check out http://www.vindicarlo.com/forums/. they got a whole section for the ladder

and the whole point of the ladder is to help guys who are fvckin up their kino. like the dude who charges in for the kiss from 4 feet away or the guy who sticks his hand on the girl's pvssy before she's even wet. those are the kinds of things that are guaranteed to get you LMR
 

Guitar_Whizz

Master Don Juan
Joined
Apr 22, 2002
Messages
987
Reaction score
188
Location
UK
ready123 said:
oral sex is not in the ladder because it's unnecessary and sometimes even if there's no LMR, the girl still might not be receptive to it or willing to give

if you want to go down on her, do it after stimulating her, once clothes are off. if you want her to go down on you, you need to calibrate and that's beyond the scope of the ladder

also, check out http://www.vindicarlo.com/forums/. they got a whole section for the ladder

and the whole point of the ladder is to help guys who are fvckin up their kino. like the dude who charges in for the kiss from 4 feet away or the guy who sticks his hand on the girl's pvssy before she's even wet. those are the kinds of things that are guaranteed to get you LMR
Ok, thanks for your advice. I get it now. I'll have a look at the vindicarlo forums too, cheers :)
 

Telos

Senior Don Juan
Joined
Aug 5, 2007
Messages
202
Reaction score
7
Guitar_Whizz said:
You've missed the point. You DO need a correct order to do this stuff in, otherwise you'll encounter LMR.

The Vin DiCarlo escalation ladder is designed in such a way to minimise the chances of LMR.

So you can't just do things in any order you want, because you'll get LMR if you do.
What the f*ck? Man, I must be a miracle worker.

Once you start rubbing her cl*t and get her all hot and bothered you could probably put on a cowboy hat and slap her in the face with a 12 inch black rubber dildo without any sort of resistance. This whole thread is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen.
 

Telos

Senior Don Juan
Joined
Aug 5, 2007
Messages
202
Reaction score
7
if you want her to go down on you, you need to calibrate and that's beyond the scope of the ladder
DJ Bible material.
 

Guitar_Whizz

Master Don Juan
Joined
Apr 22, 2002
Messages
987
Reaction score
188
Location
UK
Telos said:
What the f*ck? Man, I must be a miracle worker.

Once you start rubbing her cl*t and get her all hot and bothered you could probably put on a cowboy hat and slap her in the face with a 12 inch black rubber dildo without any sort of resistance. This whole thread is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen.
Read the f*cking Vin DiCarlo escaltion ladder before say this thread is ridiculous, you f*cking complete retard!!!!! Are you therefore saying you never ever get LMR? Are you so f*cking perfect? I ask a perfectly innocect question on a subject I need answers about, and compete idiots like you try to put me down. Man, if I saw you outside a bar, I'd kick your head in! Explain why you were so nasty to me please.

You have obviously never read escaltion ladder. Look, most guys get LMR, so the order of the ladder is designed to counter this. If you wish to argue, perhaps you should take this up with Vin DiCarlo himself, you retard.
 

MooseGod

Master Don Juan
Joined
Sep 12, 2007
Messages
785
Reaction score
11
Location
The Paradise City where the grass is green and the
Telos said:
Once you start rubbing her cl*t and get her all hot and bothered you could probably put on a cowboy hat and slap her in the face with a 12 inch black rubber dildo without any sort of resistance. This whole thread is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen.
Telos FTW! :crackup:

That's gotta be the funniest ****ing thing I've heard all week.

Seriously though, OP, dude...You need to chill the **** out. You realize how ridiculous this sounds?

"Did you read the ladder? You're a retard! Do you never get LMR?"

Yeah. it happens man. But if the chick's gonna ****, the chick's gonna ****. If she has her mind made up, then you all you have to do is not screw it up. Personally I just go

Kissing
Full contact kissing (holding her, caressing her curves, while kissing her)
Stimulation of the **** (not the Coalition for the Liberation of Itinerate Tree-dwellers :D)
Backing off the cliznit for a lil' bit and resuming stage 2
Lather, rinse, and repeat

Personally I think that DiCarlo escalation ladder is BS. It doesn't mention the ****oris at all...and that is key to making women horny. And it sounds way too scientific...this isn't the space program here, people have been doing this for thousands of years.

Main thing is to switch it up a little and keep her wanting more...she should be at the point where she's practically begging for it. Hmmm...maybe I should start a "system." This always works pretty damn well for me. Usually if I get to the make-out stage it's in the bag.
 

betterthandead

Senior Don Juan
Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Messages
297
Reaction score
7
This "escalation to sex" steps sounds stupid. Who is his Vin Homo guy? Does he write articles for Cosmo too?
 

ready123

Master Don Juan
Joined
Nov 16, 2007
Messages
1,260
Reaction score
35
Location
Los Angeles
if you guys can't realize see how the ladder is useful, you're either a natural who doesn't have escalation problems or a KJ who doesn't know how to troubleshoot LMR, probably because you haven't gotten enough experience to run into it

it's obvious the whole point is to calibrate a gradual escalation. guys who fvck up escalation and get LMR tend to move too fast and escalate kino at the wrong time. this goes from the guys who jump in from 4 feet away to kiss the girl and scare the sht out of her to the dudes who immediately dive for the ****oris during the makeout because they think "it's the key to making women horny so I can stick my hands on it whenever I want". these guys need to slow the fvck down and take smaller steps. the ladder is just these steps spelled out and the progression is natural enough to get you under the radar so you don't get LMR

if you're well calibrated you don't need the ladder but you already do some variant of it, minus a few steps to account for being able to read the girl correctly, or plus a few steps to account for being too careful.

but if you do have escalation problems and have no clue how to read a girl, use it to baseline the proper way to escalate on a girl. it's the most useful kino model out there
 

Guitar_Whizz

Master Don Juan
Joined
Apr 22, 2002
Messages
987
Reaction score
188
Location
UK
MooseGod said:
Personally I think that DiCarlo escalation ladder is BS. It doesn't mention the ****oris at all...and that is key to making women horny. And it sounds way too scientific...this isn't the space program here, people have been doing this for thousands of years.
Again, you're slaggin off a proven formula. Of course it mentions the cl*t. When you finger a girl, you're stimulating her cl*t. So you've missed the point, my friend.
 

Guitar_Whizz

Master Don Juan
Joined
Apr 22, 2002
Messages
987
Reaction score
188
Location
UK
betterthandead said:
This "escalation to sex" steps sounds stupid. Who is his Vin Homo guy? Does he write articles for Cosmo too?
Vin DiCarlo is a MASTER PU GURU, do you know nothing? Check out his website, www.vindicarlo.com

You say this 'escalation to sex' sounds stupid, well I suppose you can just walk up to any girl and just stick you d*ck inside her can you? Obviously you can't, you retard. So this is why you need to know how to properly escalate to a lay. Your sexual inexperience shines through. Don't dismiss things before you've got the facts right, ok?
 

Guitar_Whizz

Master Don Juan
Joined
Apr 22, 2002
Messages
987
Reaction score
188
Location
UK
Here is the text version of the Vin DiCarlo escalation ladder in its entirety:-
The DiCarlo Escalation Ladder is a step-by step formula, followed
by a number of laws which govern it's use for maximum effect.
It is designed to provide a smooth escalation, containing no significant
jumps that may cause a woman to object. At the same time, the DEL
contains no extraneous steps which are non-essential to the seduction
process. This results in a FAST escalation sequence which is compatible
with a variety of verbal structures, and has been field tested and perfected
by myself, Vincent DiCarlo, in hundreds of trials.
Without further marketing, hype or other bull****, I present... the Di-
Carlo Escalation Ladder!
1. Eye Contact and Initial Conversation
Eye contact is the first step. It's use shows social awareness and always
improves your chances of starting a conversation. Start your conversational
game shortly after eye contact.
2. Incidental Class 1
The first class of incidental kino involves the arms and hands. Shaking
hands, tapping people on the shoulder and brushing arms are all very
common things that we do on a daily basis. Done in an incidental manner,
i.e. occurring merely by chance or without intention or calculation, it is extremely
effective at building initial comfort.


Incidental Class 1 Examples:
• Hand shaking
• Arm brushing
• Light touching on her arm to emphasize your points
• Anchoring her arm near elbow to hold her close as you talk
• Standing next to her with your arm touching hers
• High Fives
• Palm Reading
3. Overt Class 1
There is an unmistakable recurring pattern throughout the DEL: incidental
kino, followed by overt kino. Overt means open to view or knowledge;
not concealed or secret.
While incidental kino is usually done in a context which masks your
intention, overt kino is not. The incidental kino which precedes it creates
the familiarity necessary for the overt kino to be accepted.
Overt Class 1 Examples:
• Holding hands
• Arm in arm escorting


4. Incidental Class 2
Class 2 kino involves any contact which takes place on her torso or
legs. This is slightly more intimate than class 1, but does not include erogenous
zones such as her breasts, crotch or inner thighs. Those areas are not
paid any direct attention until the escalation ramp - to be defined later.
Incidental Class 2 Examples:
• Standing very close with your legs touching hers
• Sitting close together with your legs touching hers
• Lightly and incidentally brushing her abdomen with your hands
while talking
• Briefly touching her back with your palm while speaking as if you are
pulling her in to hear you better
5. Overt Class 2
Overt class 2 kino is usually done while sitting down. It's not necessary,
but definitely a smart place to make the transition to sitting down.
This class of kino should be done in a protective, almost romantic manner.
Overt Class 2 Examples:
• Frontal Hugging (done best as a positive reaction to her compliance)
• Escorting her through the bar with your hand on her lower back
• Sitting next to her and placing her leg over yours
• Holding her abdomen on the side while sitting down and talking
• Placing her hand on your thigh

6. Incidental Class 3
Her hair, face and neck are the regions included in class 3. Many
guys make the common mistake of touching these areas too soon, with a
girl they first met.
Girls are surprisingly protective of their hair, face and neck placing
these relatively high on the ladder. Another common mistake is that more
experienced guys will generally skip this step altogether, only to face last
minute resistance later on.
Incidental Class 3 Examples:
• Brushing (or pretending to brush) something off of her face
• Talking very closely with your face touching hers because the environment
is extremely loud
• Touching an interesting necklace she's wearing, meanwhile allowing
your fingers to lightly caress her neck
• Playfully pinching her cheeks
7. Overt Class 3
The manner in which kino is delivered in overt class 3, is very direct.
It is meant to prepare her for kissing, and is done in a very slow, gentle
and romantic way.
Most of the time you should be sitting down, relaxed and maintaining
a good sexual state and strong eye contact.

Overt Class 3 Examples:
• Placing her head to rest on your shoulder
• Moving your face into her neck and smelling her
• Lightly stroking her face with your finger, close in, looking into her
eyes
• Running your fingers through her hair, close in, looking into her eyes
• Holding her behind the neck with your palm to the side of her neck,
looking into her eyes
Escalation Ramp
While the above steps from 1-7 may take anywhere from 30 minutes
to 4 hours, the escalation ramp described on the following pages is very
rapid. The duration of the ramp should be about 5 - 15 minutes. Start the
ramp very quickly once you have complete isolation in a sex location.

8. Kissing
Start kissing from a very close proximity. Don't come diving in lips
first from three feet away. Ideally you should already be in a suitable position
for kissing before you try. If you have overt class 3 kino taken care of,
you're probably in the right spot.
A technique for building sexual tension - move closely in, slowly as if
you might kiss her, and then move away and start talking about something
else. This will build the tension and she will wonder when you're going to
actually kiss her.
A technique to initiate kissing - try placing your finger just underneath
her chin and pulling her mouth towards yours.
Kissing should be light and short at first. You should be the one to
pull away first. Don't use too much tongue at first, just use it to tease her,
and build anticipation.
9. Kissing Her Neck
Once you have kissed her for a bit, move down to her neck. Kiss it
gently, while holding her close to you.
Depending on how rough you want to set the mood, feel free to throw in
some gentle biting too.

10. Touching the Bare Skin of Her Back
Once you have established kissing both on her mouth and neck,
move your hands to her waist and underneath her shirt. Continue to hold
her close to you, now with your hands directly on her back.
11. Stomach to Stomach
Now that you have established touching her skin, below her shirt,
simply move your hand to the front, and lift her shirt, exposing only her
stomach. At the same time lift your shirt as well so that your abdomen is in
direct contact with hers.
It seems innocent, but will meanwhile trigger intense sexual feelings
inside of her. The only time she feels contact like that is usually when she's
naked and having sex.
12. Kissing her Body
Having her shirt pulled up affords the opportunity of moving downwards
to kiss and caress the bare flesh of her abdomen. Start kissing her
there, along the sides, and move upwards.
Touching and kissing the breasts is optional. It is not necessary, and
in some cases can be detrimental to your progress. There are some women
who have a negative anchor to their breasts.

Inch toward their breasts and feel her reaction. If she becomes increasingly
turned on, then go for it. If she starts to close down, skip the
breasts until you are already having sex.
13. Incidentally Stimulate Vagina
While you are kissing her body, you can position yourself between
her legs and use your midsection to rub against her vagina. If you are kissing
her mouth you can position your thigh to stimulate her vagina.
You can also be kissing her body and reach between her legs and
plant your hand on the bed below her. Then use your forearm to stimulate
her vagina. The key here is that because you aren't using your hand or fingers,
she has no basis for objection.
14. Direct Vaginal Stimulation from Behind (Inside Panties)
Once you have really amped her up by incidentally rubbing her vagina,
move your hand around to the back and slip it inside her panties and
touch her naked ass.
Next move your hand all the way down and reach her vagina. Start
first by touching the area around it. Then proceed to finger her from behind.
Women never expect to have it happen this way. Trying to reach your
hand down the front of her pants will often be resisted, but from the rear is
unexpected and effective.

If she is wearing a skirt or dress, you will instead move your hand
up the back of her leg, and reach her vagina that way. Finger her and then
proceed directly to step 16.
 

Guitar_Whizz

Master Don Juan
Joined
Apr 22, 2002
Messages
987
Reaction score
188
Location
UK
15. Direct Vaginal Stimulation in Front
Get her heated up by fingering her, and then when once she is sufficiently
turned on, undo the front of her pants with your other hand.
You can use the Situationally Relevant phrase "My hand is being
crushed" as you do it, although it's usually not necessary. Since she is engaged
by the fact that you are fingering her, she will rarely object to your
simultaneous undoing of her pants. You may also have her undo her pants,
by saying "Unbutton your pants." as you are fingering her.
Moving to the front, you'll be able to get more penetration with your
fingers, and get her to the point where she is practically begging for sex.
Use a firm "come-hither" motion pulling forward on the front vaginal wall
and stimulating her g-spot.

16. Remove Her Pants, Sex
The idea is to get her so heated up by fingering her, that she makes a
commitment to sex, verbally or physically.
There are a few ways to go about this. Firstly, it is very important
that you don't stop fingering her before her pants are off. Too many times
a guy will stop fingering her, and then try to take off her pants, only to get
more resistance.
While fingering her you can say "Do you want me inside you?"
Which will usually get a "Yes." response. At that point you say "Ok, take off
your pants." and continue to finger her until her panties are off, and she's
ready to go.
Another option is to skip the question and directly tell her to take off
her pants. Usually with your fingers busy at work, she will be more than
compliant.
Another technique is to ask her "Do you want me to get a condom?"
In 90% of all girls you ask this, they will say "Yes." Not because they are
saying they want sex, but because they want to appear safe and level
headed.
You will interpret this as the permission to get a condom and have sex with
her, and it will most likely be met without opposition.

Additional Points
1. Higher Levels Unlock Access to Lower Levels
The rungs of the DiCarlo Escalation Ladder may be treated exactly
the same as compliance levels. The point is, any time you reach a higher
level through situational relevance, it unlocks the lower levels automatically.
A good example of this is in a loud club or bar, you can reach in and
talk directly into her ear, getting incidental class 3 kino, touching the side
of your face to hers.
You are speaking to her in a way that is dictated by the situation, so it is
accepted. If you accomplish this without her resistance, all lower levels will
become unlocked.

2. Execution of the Escalation Ramp
The escalation ramp, which consists of steps 8-16 is most effectively
executed in isolation in a sex location. It is not efficient to start the ramp
with the intention of finishing it at a later time.
Starting the ramp without finishing it will lead to an increase in flaking
and decrease a woman's attraction toward you.
This is because these sexual behaviors were formed thousands of
years ago when we were still living in caves. The natural instinctual urges,
combined with a lack of knowledge of modern-day sexual consequences
meant that escalation with a woman would 100% of the time lead to sex.
By executing the ladder correctly, you are matching her genetic sexual
programming and giving it to her the exact way that she wants it.
It is acceptable to do the first part of the ramp - kissing - outside of a
suitable sex location, but only if you plan on completing the ramp later in
that same meeting. It's not to say that kissing a girl on a non-sex meet will
destroy your chances, but it certainly won't improve them.
Kiss-closes may look impressive and feed your ego, but aren't technically
optimum.

3. Incidental Vs. Overt Kino
There is always a question as to how to execute these different pieces
of kino. In general, you should spend most of your time in the incidental
phase, getting her comfortable with contact in those regions.
This pattern of incidental followed by overt is almost a like a Jedi
mind trick. Use the incidental kino in a very non-invasive, very much under
the radar manner, and her subconscious will automatically accept the
subsequent overt kino.
Since she accepts the overt kino, it is through a process of backwards
rationalization that her attraction for you increases. The key is to make the
overt kino extremely short.
Each overt phase in the initial ladder should have a duration of 5-10
seconds. You're not going to be holding her hand in the club for 5 minutes
at a time while in class 1. Keep it short and sweet.

4. Group Ladder Theory
There is quite a bit of evidence supporting the idea of a "group ladder"
concept. Within a tightly knit group of girls who share a "collective
emotional state" with each other, it is possible that whatever step on the
ladder you achieve with one girl can transfer over very easily to the other
girls in the group.
In a sense, each group of girls has a ladder, which represents your
escalation with that group. If you can comfortably touch and hold a girl at
a certain point in the ladder, it creates an implicit trust of "this guy is cool"
for the other girls in the group at that same level.
Keep in mind, however, this does not include the escalation ramp,
although it has been observed to happen with kissing quite readily.

5. DiCarlo Escalation Ladder as a Standalone Method
The DEL provides both a sufficient framework for escalation and a
linear step-by-step process such that it could be used as a standalone
method. You can use one of the many popular verbal structures out there,
but basic conversational skills will suffice, given an elementary understanding
of the ladder.
There is an inherent value and attractiveness to a man who can escalate
in such an intelligent and socially aware manner, which is why your
verbal content does not matter very much when using this method.
The DiCarlo Escalation Ladder combined with enough conversational
skill to disengage her critical mind is a very powerful, yet "natural"
method.
Vincent DiCarlo
 

Credos

Master Don Juan
Joined
Dec 20, 2005
Messages
658
Reaction score
19
woods said:
Preferably soon after a shower. I wont go down unless she's taken a shower within the last couple hours. If she's quality, she will stop you, if she doesnt think she's "fresh" enough. Don't worry about LMR. But if you do, do it before penetration.

I don't believe in that ladder of escalation. It depends on the situation.

It basicly goes: Make out, start fondling boobs, maybe start fingering, depending on what she's wearing, start removing clothes, kiss various parts of newly exposed body. when your both naked, then you can go down if you want. She will stick your schlong in her mouth when she's ready, but it's good to go down on her first, to get her maximally turned on.
Also best for you to go down first, cause if she goes second, you'll still be aroused before penetration :p (I've lost my "bonner" because she wanted me to go down to long... she had to start over again on me and she got kinda annoyed about it :crazy:)

^For the post above mine, to much to read on how to get laid... Just go with the flow? Don't fear your sexuality and go for it, if she doesn't want it she'll push you back, just do whatever you did before that for 5-10 more mins and don't pay any attention to it. After that, try again, if she still says no, it won't happen that day.
 

mikeyb

Senior Don Juan
Joined
May 10, 2007
Messages
475
Reaction score
16
Age
36
Location
UK
In my experience, it's better to touch the neck before kissing to test a girl's reaction and avoid LMR...so not too sure about the start of that "ladder". But yeah, if you want to go down on her, then by all means. As for the smell part of things, most good quality girls won't have a strong natural smell, as it's mostly the girls that sleep around alot that smell funky (something to do with sperm affecting the acidity of the vagina), or the ones who have vaginal fungus.

As for making her go down on you, I never make a girl do it the first time. If she initiates it, fine, but otherwise it's the best way to run into LMR as many girls are uneasy about it.
 
Top