What I've learned... or, how to give up SoSuave.

Gubby

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Guys, I'm not a DJ yet... if you count getting girls as being a DJ. I have never even kissed a girl yet, though I have had some romance, and I've groped a tit or two while drunk (OMG SCORE!!!!!!!!!).

But: the difference between me and what you'd call an AFC is that I don't care.

No, I'm not gay or an asexual: the opposite, I seem to have very high testosterone levels if you can judge from my erection frequency, my general drive to action and dominance, the set of my jaw, my overall build, my abundance of acne:cheer:

I've noticed... eventually... its effect on girls. They look at me in "that" way. They giggle about me behind my back (or so I hear from certain reliable informants). One girl sent me a love letter through her girl-support network. Another girl sent me a video of herself masturbating.

The trouble was that while this was happening I was clueless. The first times that girls showed any sort of blatant interest I did your classic AFC thing because I thought I NEEDED it.

Fact is, though, this was just something I picked up. The doubts about it all were in my mind because, from what I heard, this sort of thing was supposed to be DIFFICULT. But before, when I paid more attention to my inner compass and less attention to these aquired doubts... the girls fell in love with me back. Yes, I never kissed a girl. But as far as I dared go, they followed my lead: so long as I was following my own compass. Things might have been a lot different if circumstances had let me gain more confidence. As it is, I decided to "learn to pick up chicks".

Actually, it wasn't such a conscious decision. Mostly I started forum-trawling because I was lonely at the time, but I gravitated towards places like SoSuave in particular because of the questions I wanted to answer.

In the short term, though, they only made things worse -- MUCH WORSE. So I read over and over SoSuave posts -- I didn't want to admit I was lonely, actually, so I only fulfilled my emotional needs in ways I could rationalise as being for a different reason -- and what that did was to let me gently pick up the idea that seduction was difficult from all the people who thought it was difficult, even as I learnt valuable stuff from people like Pook, Krassus and Señor Fingers.

I was in a romance at the time. Scoff yes, ROMANCE -- your poor bastards are all afraid of love aren't you? Well, I agree, there's an AFC way about it and a DJ way about it: and I'll go so far as to say that you're not yet a proper DJ unless you're capable of being in love. AFCs FAKE romance. They think they HAVE to do it to "get girls"... in fact they think they HAVE TO GET GIRLS. Both bad beliefs. There's no single holy grail to happiness.

In fact, it was a romance on MSN Messenger. Did I tell you? I was in a foreign country at the time... so I was lonely and had no-one who I could speak english to.

OH NOES! you say. GUBBY IS AN AFC! LOOK HOW DESPERATE HE IS!

No. All of this can be done the DJ way... no, the NATURAL way. What that means is that you make relationships using nothing but your instincts. What can anything else do but come between you? The AFC way is not natural, by the way. It's LEARNED. I was strong-minded (I AM strong minded) so I paid relatively little attention to these things, and I fell in love because I GOD DAMNED FELT LIKE IT. She fell in love back. She said that she'd never felt the same way about a guy.

How did I get her to fall in love? I... I don't know! I just decided at one point I wanted her, and I turned up the pressure. That's all I can remember. You see? There's no method, just instinct.

But there was the seed of AFC-dom in me. I wasn't quite sure about my instincts, because so many people said that the AFC way was right. This led me to read SoSuave and so on and "learn" from it.

This was where the relationship stopped working. Bit by bit what I "learned" removed me from that intimate connection. It doesn't matter what the supposed facts are; reading this stuff I got the general VIBES that a) women are bad, b) romance is bad and c) sexual relations are something you need to work at, not simply gravitate into naturally. I absorbed those vibes by osmosis even as my rational mind was working on Pook's grand philosophies and Krassus's easy strength. That's the danger with loneliness - it takes away your free will. Be wary of it.

And that relationship broke up. It just left the bounds of real passion and became a fantasy -- it became what AFCs do.

I still love that girl by the way. I say this to provoke you guys who are already shaking their heads and saying "what an AFC". And she still loves me... in the same way as I her: not *necessarily* romantically. We tease, screw around, that sort of thing, and sometimes it feels sexual. But there's a strong vein of friendship that's always there, and I know that if I ever want her to be my girlfriend I have to be strong enough to protect her and provide for her. I don't feel quite worthy of that now, even if we did live close enough to have proper relations. But it gives me something to aspire to: not necessarily to her personally, I know that there are more girls as good as her: but it shows me what sort of thing lies in store if I become everything I can be. That's "sex transmutation" by the way, if you need for it to be pointed out to you.

Now, the fact that I have still never kissed a girl shows that I have a lot to work on. But I'm not focusing on women anymore. I'm focusing on me. That's DJ isn't it? But I don't do it because it's DJ. The word "DJ" has not come up in my thinking processes for a long time. I do it because I WANT TO. I do everything because I WANT TO.

DJ is naturalness. AFC and PUA are both artificiality. To be happy you need to stop ADDING artificiality: you need only GRAVITATE towards naturalness, with your masculine desire to be the best you can be as a guide. **** philosophies. Your gut feeling will tell you if something is right or not: listen to it MUCH, MUCH more.

So this is my advice to anyone who is where I was three years ago: don't read this forum. You'll absorb bad ideas and good ideas in equal measure. Just read The Book Of Pook and Weapons Of Mass Seduction by Señor Fingers. That should be enough to convince you that you already KNOW ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW. And then follow your own compass... become strong.

Women want their knight in shining armour. You're not being exploited -- that's projecting a masculine mind onto her. Your STRENGTH and VISION is an equal trade for her LOVE and RADIENCE.

And learn to fall in love like a real man. *****.
 

drak_ool

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Gubby said:
Guys, I'm not a DJ yet... if you count getting girls as being a DJ. I have never even kissed a girl yet,
did not read the rest of your post cuz i couldn't get past the first sentence...
do you realize you posted in the "tips" section of a forum dedicated to help guys get laid with (hopefully) hot women?

how can you help anybody on here?
 

Interceptor

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He means well. But sometimes we have to encounter and experience failure.
What Gubby is actually advocating her is to not LEARN to have the "Discerning Mind". To turn a blind eye to knowledge, and not gain the skill to discern what is applicable or not.
I know he means well. But this is the 'safe' way, for males who are still timid, and scared. Whom are not ready to go into the world, and outside of their Comfort Zone.
Learn to live at the edge of your Comfort Zone.
That is real Men territory.
It's not 'safe'.

GUbby while well meaning, is a little misguided in how to HELP YOU personally.

You have to learn to do two things.

You must gain INTELLIGENCE by LEARNING. That means intellectual assimilation and analysis.

And have EXPERINCE and gain WISDOM by DOING. Experiential first hand knowledge of how the world 'works' and your reactions to your environment.
Then go back to step one...
BOTH of these help YOU BUILD the DISCERNING MIND.

The DISCERNING MIND.





You, as Men, have an Internal Compass.

Some of this Compass's energy is driven by deep rooted masculine insticts.
If you let it OVER RIDE your logic, you will be a slave to your desires.
If you dont' listen to it, you still lose. As you waste valueable time and energy going in circles, trying to get women to LEAD you and SAVE you.


You, as Men, are to rise up above that.

You are men, not animals.

You have instinct, but you have reasoning as well.


Leanr how to use it. Build skill with it.

You, as Men, are your OWN Mentors and "Fathers'. Learn what this means.
 

Paper Man

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Gubby, listen to Interceptor. I am pretty much in the same position that you are, and I sure as hell know it's quite the temptation to give away logical justifications for what we are doing (or not doing).

But this comes from a place of weakness; realizing we actually have to do stuff WAY out of our comfort zone is when the real fun begins.
 

Gubby

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Now... I recognise that I'm not much in a position to give you guys tips about how to get laid... but there is some things I felt I could say that would be useful.

Getting right out of my comfort zone with women is something I have not done for a while. My point is, it's intentional; in a way. I feel I have better things to do with my time. How much of this is rationalisation for my fears? Umm... not a major amount. I do get a bit nervous when it comes to interacting with new people / breaking social barriers, like anyone: but, for instance, I once called up a girl and said "wanna ****?" just to see what she said. It's not smooth and sure as hell it doesn't usually work, but it does have the BALLS element, don't deny me that.

A) I wanted to warn people not to fall into the trap of becoming MORE NEEDY from reading this site. B) My insight was that being more natural, not less, is how to do it. (I thought this was just basic philosophy. Seems like it's not so prevalent here after all). And C) I wanted to give a different spin on this love thing by showing that it's natural and can come from a place of strength. I know it's about the same as placing a falg on my head saying "flame me" but I hoped someone might see that I was taking a slightly different approach to looking at it.
 

Gubby

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drak_ool said:
did not read the rest of your post cuz i couldn't get past the first sentence...
do you realize you posted in the "tips" section of a forum dedicated to help guys get laid with (hopefully) hot women?

how can you help anybody on here?
I dunno, by providing a different viewpoint? Try reading the rest of the post.
 

Interceptor

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I think it IS important to not be needy for this site or anything. That's why I commend you on your efforts.
It is well intentioned, you are right.

It is important to look at Love and being in Love from a place of strength, I agree.

And it is also important to recognize that siometimes the term 'natural' is a misnomer. Since what many men really need to do is to uncover all the toxic beliefs and bad programming and reveal their true selves. And for many this takes a certain Method to get there.

Good work, Gubby.
Keep it up, just try to become more aware of the possible Angles you may sometimes not address.

:up:
 

Paper Man

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C) I wanted to give a different spin on this love thing by showing that it's natural and can come from a place of strength. I know it's about the same as placing a falg on my head saying "flame me" but I hoped someone might see that I was taking a slightly different approach to looking at it.
My grip with this is that you and me have a very limited set of experiences to pass judgement on the subject of love. I sure as hell experienced "true love" more than once. Is it love, passion, infatuation, lust?

On the other hand, experienced or not, love seems to be a thin line that everyone walks in. You can see it everywhere; pretty much everyone has his own view of what love is, be it a prostitute or a guy that posts in here. It is so subjective that it becomes very hard to nail down. Does one need to be more experienced/mature to experience love? Who the hell knows; there have been times when I'm pretty sure that love is what I am experiencing. Yet, the only thing I know by experience is that feelings subside, and what seems to be one thing, may turn out to be a completely different thing.
 

Gubby

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Paper Man said:
My grip with this is that you and me have a very limited set of experiences to pass judgement on the subject of love. I sure as hell experienced "true love" more than once. Is it love, passion, infatuation, lust?

On the other hand, experienced or not, love seems to be a thin line that everyone walks in. You can see it everywhere; pretty much everyone has his own view of what love is, be it a prostitute or a guy that posts in here. It is so subjective that it becomes very hard to nail down. Does one need to be more experienced/mature to experience love? Who the hell knows; there have been times when I'm pretty sure that love is what I am experiencing. Yet, the only thing I know by experience is that feelings subside, and what seems to be one thing, may turn out to be a completely different thing.
I've chewed this over a bit.

I figure what I mean by love is not so different to the love of a guy friend or a family member. It's a trust and an understanding that brings inner peace.

But with some girls.. the "in love" kinda love... you get that extra passion, the madness. Most people in this site seem to fear it. AFCs think they NEED it. No.. it doesn't come when it's called. And I don't think it has to be painful. The pain I reckon is when you start to make it something it isn't... no, worse, thinking you get it by working for it -- AFC-style. It's a passing pleasure like the appreciation of a beautiful work of art, wandering a foreign city on a bright summer's day, or the getting lost in the grand revelations of science. They0re all joys, but they have no meaning other than to exist. You can't enjoy them in any other way but to be natural, just a human being, a complex animal.
 

Interceptor

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Gubby said:
I've chewed this over a bit.

I figure what I mean by love is not so different to the love of a guy friend or a family member. It's a trust and an understanding that brings inner peace.

But with some girls.. the "in love" kinda love... you get that extra passion, the madness. Most people in this site seem to fear it. AFCs think they NEED it. No.. it doesn't come when it's called. And I don't think it has to be painful. The pain I reckon is when you start to make it something it isn't... no, worse, thinking you get it by working for it -- AFC-style. It's a passing pleasure like the appreciation of a beautiful work of art, wandering a foreign city on a bright summer's day, or the getting lost in the grand revelations of science. They0re all joys, but they have no meaning other than to exist. You can't enjoy them in any other way but to be natural, just a human being, a complex animal.

Fantastic, Gubby.
Well said.

You have to let go of the NEED, in order to recieve it.

You can only receive TRUE Love when you truly Love YOUR SELF and ACCEPT yourSELF, good AND BAD.
 

Gubby

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Interceptor said:
You can only receive TRUE Love when you truly Love YOUR SELF and ACCEPT yourSELF, good AND BAD.
Thanks for your support interceptor :D

I agree. But after a time you wonder what does it really mean to love oneself? What good's a voice in your head going "I LOVE ME" if it feels wrong?

Love... I don't know how to explain this to you... I don't think you can recieve love. It's like you're imagining it as working in the same way as money. Love and company is something you GIVE... the more you give away, the more you have.

When I was sitting back waiting for the magical love fairy to come along and bless me with some love, even when I DID "get it" it didn't feel right.
 

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Your journey with women hasn't yet begun, Gubby.

Thats why its strange that you feel the need to comment on something you've never taken part in. You've obviously observed and thought ALOT about it... so what? To use a scientific metaphor, you're extrapolating a nonlinear system as if it was linear. You have some basic understanding of relationships and feelings and are attempting to use theory and imagination to forge a comprehensive view which others forged through experience.

As someone who both attempted to do what you're doing and then went out and got some knocks, I can tell you you have no real right to pontificate so boldly. You're overstepping your bounds. Your philosophical mind can't win this battle for you. If this game could be won through thinking I would have beat it long ago and I havent.

And your supposedly new point of view is a reiteration of points that are constantly restated by various inspired posters who come and go:

1) the revelation that happiness comes from onesself
2) the need to leave SoSuave in order to have success in the real world
3) the tendency of this board to foster overanalysis of situations which should be addressed spontaneously.

I don't mind your posting but it ruffles my feathers to be bossed around in matters of the heart by an 18-year old with no relationship experience. Here's my advice: go out there in the real world, and when you come back, we'll recognize from your slightly more humble tone that you have really gained experience. You'll probably then be less interested in your one-size-fits-all concept of love based on an adolescent dream.
 

Gubby

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Technical1 said:
Your journey with women hasn't yet begun, Gubby.

Thats why its strange that you feel the need to comment on something you've never taken part in. You've obviously observed and thought ALOT about it... so what? To use a scientific metaphor, you're extrapolating a nonlinear system as if it was linear. You have some basic understanding of relationships and feelings and are attempting to use theory and imagination to forge a comprehensive view which others forged through experience.

As someone who both attempted to do what you're doing and then went out and got some knocks, I can tell you you have no real right to pontificate so boldly. You're overstepping your bounds. Your philosophical mind can't win this battle for you. If this game could be won through thinking I would have beat it long ago and I havent.

And your supposedly new point of view is a reiteration of points that are constantly restated by various inspired posters who come and go:

1) the revelation that happiness comes from onesself
2) the need to leave SoSuave in order to have success in the real world
3) the tendency of this board to foster overanalysis of situations which should be addressed spontaneously.

I don't mind your posting but it ruffles my feathers to be bossed around in matters of the heart by an 18-year old with no relationship experience. Here's my advice: go out there in the real world, and when you come back, we'll recognize from your slightly more humble tone that you have really gained experience. You'll probably then be less interested in your one-size-fits-all concept of love based on an adolescent dream.

Yeah: You're right. I'd defend myself but what would be the point? Even if I had some original ideas in this post I don't like the tone I was using either.

This has been a struggle between what you'd call my vanity and the part that actually wants what's right for me. I've been winning bit by bit, or so I'd like to think... but until I can be entirely happy with the possibility of failure I'll never win.

So thank you for giving me a dose of reality. I'm sick of these social barriers I put up. :rolleyes:
 

Technical1

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Gubby said:
This has been a struggle between what you'd call my vanity and the part that actually wants what's right for me.
The extremely high intelligence behind your posts isn't hard to recognize, especially for someone writing the way you do at your age. However its in your own best interests to assume the role of a student rather than an advisor and resist the temptation to "play God amongst the natives" with the people on this board. Wherever there is a market-place of ideas, the super-intelligent always face some temptation for ego-investment in an Übermensch-like, I-have-understood-the-world persona and role. I'm urging you to k33p it r34l for your own good.

Now... getting back to the most important philosophical question, which man has been asking himself since before the pre-Socratics.... how can I get pvss?
 

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What he is trying to say basiclly is to focue on your self first. Get things right with you and then everything else well fall into place. What this guys is talking about is true happiness the kind that can be found with or without a women. If your truly happy with you and your women will naturel come to you.
 

Gubby

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Haha, I like you Technical: you can present a harsh reality without coming across as an attacker yourself. Course, a couple of weeks ago I might have hated you for saying these things... dunno.

I have tried to over-philosophise things. I sought out solitude and agonised and obsessed. Luckily, I was smart enough to finally realise what was the problem, though even then that wasn't quite the same as taking action. I'm almost there, I reckon (never again will I say I AM there. It's a great big KICK ME sign on the arse of your infinite-reaching spiritual being).

I've realised just how much we tend to delude ourselves. It's like the childish idea, "if I can't see you, you can't see me" -- or, put in a different way, if you believe it, it magically becomes true (as far as you can tell). I remember as a child I believed subconsciously that the house magically cleaned itself and -- woa!! It DOES! I'm like a SORCERER with my self-fulfilling prophecies and shi't!

Pride is good, I reckon. It's manliness. It's the drive to become the best, and the reward when you become so. My pride, my innner strength, is what attracts those girls. I even strut sometimes! And fu'ck you if you take offense!

But pride is one of the things most susceptible to delusion. If you believe you ARE the best already, you already have that good feeling: all you need is to block out all evidence to the contrary. It's such a strong drive that it can be almost unbearable when you're at the wrong end of it. It WOULD be -- it's sex! The thing that perpetuates the species! We're MADE for it!

So I gotta watch my pride and make sure it never becomes arrogance -- wait, STOP it from BEING arrogance (here I go again...:rolleyes:)

Sigh...

Oh well... it's fun! :D
 

Gubby

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Interceptor said:
What Gubby is actually advocating her is to not LEARN to have the "Discerning Mind". To turn a blind eye to knowledge, and not gain the skill to discern what is applicable or not.

...

You must gain INTELLIGENCE by LEARNING. That means intellectual assimilation and analysis.
Ok, I retreated from this discussion because I was ashamed of the fact that I had let my ego into this. But even if I had, I believe in these ideas. I was ranting as if I was trying to change other people: that's arrogant. But I was really talking to myself, in part. The ideas I was getting across: yes, they were partly rationalisations for what I didn't want to face up to in myself. But even as I withdrew from people partly out of fear, I have learnt some true wisdom, going over all the unprocessed experience in me and drawing connections. It's a subtle thing.

So Interceptor:

I'm not sure what you mean by "Discerning mind". Frankly - and correct me if I'm being presumptuous - it sounds like fluff to me. I think you could leave a lot out of your writing and still get the same points across.

:eek: *defends self* constructive criticism! CONTRUCTIVE!!!!

:D anyway! What I'm saying is, naturalness FIRST. You can get a girl -- Pook wrote about this -- simply from how you look her in the eyes. That's INSTINCT. Nothing else. (And I DO have this experience -- I said I fell in love twice -- in one of those times me and a girl fell into a HYPNOTIC TRANCE staring into each others eyes (but I was too scared to kiss her LOL:crackup: )

Now there's a difference between intellectualism and learning. I say this because I am the NUMBER ONE BIGGEST OFFENDER.

Learning is done to make you more capable.

Intellectualism is done for its own sake.

Many things take almost no time to learn to do. And you learn DOING them. Failure is your biggest teacher. Again, biggest offender.

Señor fingers makes some really good bits of technical advice about how to actually do all the approaches and so on in his book. But there's no substitute, ever, for instinct. What would be the point in KNOWING EVERYTHING if you APPLIED NOTHING? If none of it was used for a purpose that came from outside the knowledge? You'd be a human robot. (Biggest offender!:D)

I've had some successes with women. (Kissing ain't the only thing out there ;)) But -- I didn't enjoy them when I was doing it because I thought I was supposed to. So even if you don't use instinct to gain your successess - you won't enjoy them unless you're coming from the place of instinct. I groped a tit, sucked a finger -- and I was AMAZED at how empty it felt.

UPDATE: thinking this over a bit more I want to add that I have actually kissed a few girls, quite recently, in one of those spin the bottle games. I didn't enjoy it very much -- that's why I din't think of it when I said that I'd never kissed. Without the passion what's there to enjoy?


I'm not saying anything new. I'm just stressing something which I think is understressed.

INSTINCT INSTINCT INSTINCT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:cheer: :cheer: :cheer:
 
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