Training For All Round Body Functionality

[Carpe.Diem]

Hey everyone. Most of the advice on these boards regarding health is focused around getting either as big, as strong or as ripped as is possible. What I'm looking to do is go more for functionality; I want strength, fitness, speed, agility and to be generally healthier.

I've done some searches and the best I can find that seems to fit my requirements is this: http://www.defrancotraining.com/articles/38-articles/60-westside-for-skinny-bastards-part1.html

I'm wondering what the h&f gurus think of this routine - it certainly seems to have good credentials. Is there anything you would change? If anyone has been on this routine aswell I'd be very interested in hearing how you got on with it.


Thanks,

CD

 

[Drum&Bass]

Why don't you try it yourself and tell us if you find it effective.

 

[Matt281]

Way, way too much training. Unless you're on drugs or you naturally have bodybuilder physique, you NEED lots of recovery time. Muscle build during recovery, and if you constantly break yourself down, the process will be much slower.

I highly recommend looking at these:

http://www.the21convention.com/2009/09/08/drew-baye-t21c-2009/

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-blueprint-fitness/

http://www.amazon.com/Body-Science-...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1284405660&sr=1-1

Hope it helps.

 

[CaptainJ]

I don't know the westside for skinny bastards routine, but I do know that it works. Hope that helps.

 

[Drum&Bass]

@ Matt281...

Way, way too much training. Unless you're on drugs or you naturally have bodybuilder physique, you NEED lots of recovery time. Muscle build during recovery, and if you constantly break yourself down, the process will be much slower.

Have you tried this program and you are speaking from experience ?

p.s. I don't think carpe needs help, until he actually TRIES something first.

 

[Kerpal]

p.s. I don't think carpe needs help, until he actually TRIES something first.

Well that's a little ridiculous, since there are so many training possibilities out there and each takes time to see results. We could spend our lifetimes trying different ones, or we could do a few minutes of research to figure out which are best for our goals.

To the OP: Most people are weak. In these people, maximal strength acts as a ceiling on most other athletic qualities. Simply increasing maximal strength in these people will make them run faster, jump higher, be more explosive, have more endurance, be less prone to injury, etc. I read your other post where you listed your 5RMs in the squat, bench and deadlift and I think Westside for Skinny Bastards is unnecessarily complicated at your level of strength.

I think your top priority at this point should simply be to improve your maximal strength, as that will give you the biggest "bang for the buck". There's no reason to make things more complicated than they need to be. I suggest just doing the Rippetoe program with a conditioning workout (wind sprints, Crossfit WOD, something from Ross Enamait's books, etc) once a week.

Right now your goal should be to double your 5RM numbers in the Big 3 for 1RMs. So in other words, squat ~400 lbs, bench ~300 lbs, and deadlift ~500 lbs all for 1 rep. An adult male with average or better genetics should be able to reach these numbers with a simple linear progression program (ie Rippetoe), provided diet is adequate. These goals should keep you busy for a while.

Also, get Starting Strength if you don't have it already. A lot of people think "I don't need to read a book, I'll just follow the write-up on Bodybuilding.com", but this is a huge mistake. The book is so much more than just the program. I also recommend his other book, Practical Programming for Strength Training to understand not just what to do, but why to do it. I'm not a fan of Crossfit because I think they're very dogmatic and elitist, but some of their conditioning workouts are good. I prefer Ross Enamait's stuff for conditioning though, he's written 2 great books called Infinite Intensity and Never Gymless which I own and highly recommend. Or if you want to keep things super simple you could just go to a track and run a series of sprints once a week.

BTW, my goals are similar to yours and this is the exact approach I'm taking. Right now I'm just worried about getting stronger, once I feel I have sufficient maximal strength I will start to focus more on conditioning stuff.

 

[Carpe.Diem]

Alright, thanks for the replies everyone. Matt, I'll definately check those out; they look very interesting.

So I went straight into it, day 1 for me being the leg day. For those who didn't read the link I did:


1 x 5 Squat - Max effort, plenty of warmup sets
3 x 10 Lunges
3 x 8 Romanian Deadlifts
3 sets of hangs (hang on a pull up bar for as long as possible before peeling off)


I've gotta say it was pretty killer, my glutes in particular were really feeling it. 3 x 10 lunges is brutal, even with the fairly conservative weight I was using.

Tomorrow I've got indoor bouldering, so nothing especially strenuous on the legs. We'll see how they are wednesday though: upper body Max effort in the morning followed by some HIIT in the afternoon.

If anyone has any experience in doing this routine, I'd be very interested in hearing about how you got on recovery wise. Like Matt281 mentioned, overtraining was a main concern of mine about this routine (coming from option B in the sticky with minimal cardio...).



Cheers,

CD

 

[Carpe.Diem]

*snip*

That's very interesting Kerpal, thanks for taking the time to answer. The thing is I was on a pure fitness program maybe 2 years ago (I was 15/16) before lifting anything larger than a 3 kilo bag of pasta. I was always decently strong, atleast strong enough to compete fairly well at my rugby (winger then flanker) and rock climbing.


When I started lifting it took me a while to find a decent program since I was mostly going on the bad advice of my friend's, but I noticed a big drop in my fitness once I got off the running and onto the lifting. This is especially noticeable in rugby where your effectively running, tackling or dodging for 2 40 minute halves.


This is why I've come to see if there's a better alternative that matches my goals, I'm happy to be proven wrong, but just from my own past experiences, maybe a pure strength regime isn't optimal?


I think I will buy the starting strength book atleast for now. I was always hesitant about spending money since I've been religously saving for my gap year (roll on january..) and I assumed everything in the book was accessable online. So many people have reccomended it though I'm just going to bite the bullet.


Cheers,

CD

 

[Kerpal]

If you're only squatting in the low 200s for a set of 5 you're not really strong enough to claim that strength training won't help you in your sport. Besides, who said anything about a "pure strength" program, you'll still be working on your conditioning once a week, just with most emphasis on strength FOR NOW. After you've gotten strong, shift more emphasis to your conditioning training and you'll be strong AND well conditioned instead of just well conditioned. My point is that right now strength is your "bottleneck", not conditioning. If you improve your strength (and that means squatting way more than 200 lbs) you'll automatically get better at everything else.

Here's my experience. I used to be into BJJ, which is full of 165 lb guys who can't squat their bodyweight and say "lifting weights makes you slow and stiff, just do conditioning" and etc. I kind of got out of it and just focused on lifting weights for a while. After a couple years I went back and rolled for a bit. After about 2 years of not training BJJ at all while these guys trained multiple times per week, I was throwing them around like rag dolls and strangling the **** out of them while powering out of their submission attempts easily. Sure, my conditioning and technique weren't as good but I was so much stronger it didn't matter. This was of course without the gi on, with it on everything changes since it give a HUGE advantage to the weaker but more experienced guys, but even then I believe I fared better than I would have if I had only trained BJJ and conditioning for those 2 years and not lifted a weight.

I was surviving and even occasionally submitting brown belts who have been training for 10+ years while only weighing about 20 lbs more. These guys have great conditioning and do endless sets of burpees and sprints, but think about it this way; if 2 guys tie up, both are going at 100% and one of them is 50% stronger than the other, who is going to tire out first, assuming the weaker guy doesn't just get tossed? I don't know much about rugby but from what I've seen there's a lot of pushing against other guys, you don't think being twice as strong as you currently are, even with no increase in conditioning, would help?

The Starting Strength book is literally worth its weight in gold.

 

[Drum&Bass]

Well that's a little ridiculous, since there are so many training possibilities out there and each takes time to see results. We could spend our lifetimes trying different ones, or we could do a few minutes of research to figure out which are best for our goals.

what are you talking about ??

He found a program, Im telling him to TRY it !! what is so silly about that ??

We could spend our lifetimes trying different ones

...Isn't that what all successful people do ?!!?!?!?!?

 

[Kerpal]

what are you talking about ??

He found a program, Im telling him to TRY it !! what is so silly about that ??

Here's what you wrote:

p.s. I don't think carpe needs help, until he actually TRIES something first.

You didn't give him any real advice, just told him to try it and see what happens. Why should he spend lots of time trying different programs when he can just get advice from people who have used something successfully?

Your the one that is saying don't overcomplicate things...yet here you are foolishly telling him to jump on multiple programs with very specific parameters, that you feel is effective (even though you have no knowledge of carpe and basis for a starting point. Your contradicting yourself.

Multiple programs? I told him to do SS. Very specific parameters? Getting strong is a specific parameter? lol. I read his background info and as I said in my response, I feel his top priority should simply be getting stronger, and most of his other athletic qualities will automatically increase. There's no reason not to use the quickest most effective methods available and there's no need to make things more complicated than they need to be so a guy who squats in the 200s shouldn't be wasting time doing floor presses, board presses, box squats, leg curls, etc. All he needs to do right now is work on the big lifts and eat a lot. If he had followed your advice and done the Westside program he'd be wasting time right now.

PS - learn the difference between "your" and "you're". It makes you look stupid when you don't use them correctly.

 

[Drum&Bass]

It makes you look stupid

Why are you responding to a part of my post that doesn't exist ??

If he had followed your advice and done the Westside program he'd be wasting time right now.

proof ??

 

[Kerpal]

Haha, nice ninja edit.

 

[Matt281]

@ Matt281...

Have you tried this program and you are speaking from experience ?

p.s. I don't think carpe needs help, until he actually TRIES something first.

No point in trying something for 6-12 months to find out it doesn't work well. There's a wealth of physiology studies out there showing that this type of traditional 3+ times a week, mass exercises program isn't efficient for 90+ percent of people. You can read them if you'd like.

 

[Drum&Bass]

@ Matt281, correct me if Im wrong...but YOU are saying Joe Defranco's program does NOT work well for 90% of the human population ??

You can read them if you'd like.

Yes please guide me to these studies...I would also like proof that Defrancos westside program is not "efficient for 90% of people"

Actually....I don't even want proof that it doesn't work...I'd be happy if you just did a tiny bit of research about the westside program and see what it has ALREADY done for people.

 

[Matt281]

@ Matt281, correct me if Im wrong...but YOU are saying Joe Defranco's program does NOT work well for 90% of the human population ??
Yes please guide me to these studies...I would also like proof that Defrancos westside program is not "efficient for 90% of people"

Actually....I don't even want proof that it doesn't work...I'd be happy if you just did a tiny bit of research about the westside program and see what it has ALREADY done for people.

Sigh, I'm saying that 90% of people, or more, don't have the genetic potential to work out that often and that much without overtraining, which will reduce positive results. You can get results with most programs, but that doesn't mean their methods are efficient.

If you're actually going to read them, I'll dig up some studies on muscle recovery, but my guess is that you can pick up just about any book written by someone with Ph. D in physiology, anatomy or exercise science and find the same thing. You don't seem too interested in reading about that kind of thing though.

 

[Jitterbug]

Defranco trains athletes. His programs were done with athletes as his lab rats. If you fit the bill of being an athlete (good genetics, have time & money to train, eat & rest like an athlete, have access to advanced gym gears) then go for it.

 

[Drum&Bass]

@ Jitterbug

If you fit the bill of being an athlete (good genetics, have time & money to train, eat & rest like an athlete, have access to advanced gym gears) then go for it.

is this a joke ? Your telling me you need to be a rich athlete with good genetics to follow a weight lifting routine ????

People need to eat and rest like they are WORKING OUT FOR RESULTS no ??

What advanced gear are you talking about ???


@ Matt

You don't seem too interested in reading about that kind of thing though.

Information changes constantly especially in the fitness field. What was valid 10 years ago is rarely used today however we need specifics because talking in generalities will get us no where.

also...unless you have actual experience training people for a minimum of at least 5 years there is very little that you can open my eyes to that i already haven't read, tested or tried myself.

but lets see you dig up these studies, professor.

 

[Kerpal]

Not saying it won't work, but the law of diminishing returns applies to training. If you're a beginner (and the OP is) you can make extremely fast progress and there is simply no reason to do anything other than a simple linear progression program where you work on each of the big lifts several times a week. Otherwise you're just wasting time. Why make things more complicated than they need to be, and progress slower than you could with a simpler program?

Defranco trains athletes. His programs were done with athletes as his lab rats. If you fit the bill of being an athlete (good genetics, have time & money to train, eat & rest like an athlete, have access to advanced gym gears) then go for it.

+1

I would also add being strong to begin with to that list of conditions. Squatting in the 200s is not strong.

Look at the testimonials on this site. These kids are future NFL players and other professional athletes, etc. They have elite genetics and are already advanced athletes. Stuff that works for them is not necessarily going to work for the regular guy with average to below average genetics.

Why the **** would you take a guy who can barely squat his own bodyweight and have him doing box squats, rack lockouts, board presses, rack pulls, several different types of lunges, leg curls, working up to maxes, dynamic effort work, etc. when all he needs to do to get stronger as quickly as possible is work hard on the big lifts a few times a week? I don't understand this obsession with making things more complicated than they need to be and therefore attaining slower progress.

Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.

 

[Jitterbug]

D&B, Defranco's training is awesome. My coach is a big fan of it, and often says that we should have the same one down in Australia for our junior athletes before they get drafted.

However, just look at the training schedule at the end and some of the exercises listed. It's pretty obvious that training (and getting stronger / more athletic) is The #1 Priority for someone who takes on that sort of routine. People who can train 6-7 days a week, even if you leave aside the genetic part of it, are those who prioritize their sports & athleticism above all else. They are not your average joes who ask for a routine on an Internet forum. They are athletes wanting to go professional (and making big bucks) who have real coaches. They're willing to sacrifice a lot of things to be able to train.

Your average joes don't have, and can't afford that kind of dedication (and by afford I don't just mean money).

Btw you do know what Defranco is all about, right? His franchise trains top junior athletes so that they are well prepared to have a shot at getting drafted / contracted for the professional leagues - contracts that are worth millions. It's very much a niche market and isn't for everyone.