To any lawyers or cops

[SmoothTalker]

A recent thread got me thinking, so I figure I'd tap the knowledge of some of you guys here, hoping you might be more honest than if I just asked a random cop on the street.http://www.sosuave.net/forum/memberlist.php

Is this advice actually good? http://www.boingboing.net/2008/07/28/law-prof-and-cop-agr.html Basically a lawyer explains why even if you are Innocent you should not talk to the police without legal aid, and a cop agrees with him.

Less seriously, what works best for getting out of minor trouble, ie speeding tickets and/or other minor stuff? I've heard basically throwing yourself at their mercy is the best approach since most cops are into power trips. Is this accurate?

 

[TheBucketOfTruth]

Less seriously, what works best for getting out of minor trouble, ie speeding tickets and/or other minor stuff? I've heard basically throwing yourself at their mercy is the best approach since most cops are into power trips. Is this accurate?

It depends on what you did and the police officer in question. I'd be careful begging for mercy as any admission of guilt goes right into his little notepad. "Sir, do you know why I pulled you over?" Does that phrase sound familiar? Some officers will start the conversation with that hoping you give it all up within the first few seconds.

 

[LowPlainsDrifter]

I would do a Google search for things like "how to avoid a ticket" "how to deal with police", etc.

That said, (and let me lead off by saying IANAL - I am not a lawyer)...
What I've read and experienced is that in a police enounter, you have to take into account the issues of fear and ego. If you are in contact with police for any reason - a street "stop" or traffic "stop" you are encountering them when their stress levels are through the roof.
The best thing to do is cooperate as much as you can. In a traffic stop situation, I always make sure to pull over as promptly as possible, but in a place that is safe for both of us. I turn on the dome light so that I am as visible as possible. Removing or turning off phones, earpieces and radios shows respect, and that you are focused on the situation. At this point, just take a deep breath, relax and let the officer begin the encounter. Do not take any initiative to retrieve your license, registration, etc. Do those things when asked. When asked, "do you know why I've pulled you over" I respond "I'm not exactly sure." Because saying "going too fast?" means you've admitted to something. "I have no idea" might translate to "clueless driver that needs to be woken up - with a ticket."
The "ego" part comes in because police need to continue to wear their "mantle of authority" at all times. And really, they should. When you think about it, how effective would police be if they aren't assertive with suspects they've grabbed, and allow themselves to be browbeaten into letting them go?
Above all, unless you have an excellent and completely legitimate rebuttal ("Yes, I know I have a broken headlight - there was a gravel spill about a mile back and some of that debris flew up and destroyed it), just accept the ticket with a minimum of talking - because "fighting" the ticket at the initial point of contact is the worst time to do it. If it's something mechanical like a broken taillight, etc - you might even be able to have the ticket waived altogether if you get it fixed promptly and show proof.
I agree in general with the idea of saying as little as possible, as you had mentioned in your post.

As for "throwing yourself at someone's mercy" - that is best done in court. Often, for the sake of efficiency, if you're really respectful toward the traffic court "judge" you can get a four-point violation knocked down to two, a two-point knocked down to fine-only, etc. And then you can take a "safety course" to remove whatever points you've accumulated.

 

[Bible_Belt]

I am no lawyer, either, have a law degree but have not taken the bar exam. Lawyers who don't practice crim law don't know that much about it anyway.

It depends a lot on the seriousness of the crime. Traffic violations are not really crimes, at least not in the same league as those that send you to jail. You should always give a minimum level of cooperation and politeness. If a cop says that the weather is nice, smile and agree with him, and no you didn't realize why he pulled you over.

Allowing a search is another thing. If you have even a chance of having any illegal material on you, then you must decline permission to search. If they had the right, they wouldn't ask for permission. The Fifth Amendment guarantees you the right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure. On the flip side, one cop who wanted to search my vehicle once screamed in my face at the top of his lungs, "Anyone who ever brings up the Constitution is FVCKING GUILTY!!!" Maybe he was right, but he didn't get his search and had to let me go. Unless you are Ned Flanders, always decline a search. Don't let cops in your house or car, just tell them that you will be happy to cooperate fully after they show you a warrant signed by a judge. They will lie and say that they don't need one, or that they will be back in ten minutes with one so you should just let them in now. If a cop thinks you are up to something, he will lie and tell you anything - and that is not illegal. You can't lie to cops, but they can lie to you.

Also in regard to searches, many police wear a recording device, so that they can get you on tape giving consent to the search. If cops want in your house even after you say no, the magic words to make them go away are "I feel intimidated! You guys are intimidating me!" They will go away immediately. Intimidation is what judges balance against you giving consent for the search. If the search is bad, ie not legal, then everything they find cannot be used against you as evidence.

If you are ever accused of a serious crime, then that is the time to not cooperate at all. There's no reason to talk without your attorney present. TV shows are stupid about that; no one ever asks for a lawyer.

Also, if you are stopped at a concert or public place, more magic words that you should know are "Am I being detained?" If they say no, then you walk off. If they say yes, or they stop you from leaving, then that triggers more of your Constitutional rights to kick in and protect you. If they detain you, then the next question is "Am I under arrest?" If so, then you don't say a word until you get to talk to your attorney. All of this comes from a criminal attorney with years defending concert drug busts, and I went over it with my criminal procedure professor who was a prosecutor for 20 years - he agrees that these are the best things you can say.

 

[trv26]

So, just to clarify, the right to remain silent only kicks in when you're under arrest.

What rights do you get when you're detained btw? And what's the technical differnece between detainment and arrest?

 

[Bible_Belt]

Yes, running plates is a standard procedure. You consent to it by driving on the state's roads.

The "right to remain silent" comes from Miranda:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_warning

The point of asking if you are being detained is that otherwise the law assumes you are freely talking to the police officer, and not being interrogated against your will. The questioning goes from casual conversation to an activity of a government officer against you, and the Fifth Amendment kicks in. If they are detaining you, then they have to read you the Miranda warning, or else the answers to their questions cannot be used against you as evidence. As to the difference between detainment and arrest, they are about the same in regard to your rights, one comes shortly before the other, except it's not a detainment until you ask to leave and are told no, or they reach out and physically stop you from leaving. But if you don't do that, then cops will often jump right into an intense interrogation, and they don't have to tell you that you don't have to answer their questions. The simple act of trying to leave or asking to leave instantly affords you the same rights and privileges of being under arrest.

 

[diggitydoggz]

what confuses me is... can't the cops just lie and just say that you said something? can't they lie and say that you gave consent, or that they smelled marijuana or something? then it's just your word against theirs.

 

[Bible_Belt]

They can, and sometimes they do. But them wearing a recording device protects everyone, including the cop. After they get a recorded "yes you can search" then later it will be very difficult for a lawyer to get the search thrown out. Saying they smelled pot is ok when they obviously do, because they are probably going to find some. Otherwise if they said they searched without consent because they smelled pot, and then found something like illegal prescription drugs, that would be the type of thing a good lawyer could get thrown out.

 

[Skel]

"Do you know why I pulled you over"

"yeah because you are an *******, oink oink oink"

 

[Bible_Belt]

do you happen to know if ALL cops now wear a recorded device?

There are too many different police departments to know for sure. My girlfriend's ex was a city cop in Georgia, he wore one. Cops in my small town in Illinois wear them. But I don't think you'd ever really know for sure. I would guess that if the cops were using drastic language like racial slurs or violent threats, then the conversation would not be recorded. If they were being polite and professional, then I would just guess that you were being taped.

 

[theunflushables]

To Biblebelt: so is it legal for a cop to run your plates, even if you've done nothing wrong?

Yep, hell I run plates all day. I could run yours without you knowing it. Unless your car is out for repo, then shortly someone will be hooking your car.

 

[Dust 2 Dust]

I'm no lawyer, but I do have a bachelors degree in Criminology and let me assure you that you have nothing to gain by speaking to the police without an attorney present. The police will try all types of BS threats to get you to talk, but don't fall for it. Throughout my life i've had several run-ins with law enforcement and I'll give you a personal story below to prove my point.

***
A few years back my neighbors house was burglarized. The police knocked on my door and began asking questions, but I told them I knew nothing about it. The officer asked if he could get a statement from me and I told him I wasn't answering any more questions. He then asked if he could search my home and I told him "not without a warrant." The police officers became angry when I said this and then started in with their BS threats "If you don't answer our questions were gonna subpoena you to court" and my favorite "were gonna keep bothering you since you wouldn't let us search." Of course they came back, but I didn't bother answering the door for them.

I later came to find out that my neighbor submitted my name to the police as a potential suspect in the burglary. i guess since I have long hair and listen to metal then I must be the culprit right? Now, if I had cooperated with the police I could have easily made a statement that incriminated myself.

 

[AaJ321]

In my Opinion...
I also seem to be getting the s*** end of the stick when it comes to the police.

But since we are already on the subject,
I got a couple tickets a few weeks back. Open Alchohal in public and underage drinking. I was walking with a few people on my way to a house party with a bottle of rum in my hand. I'm not use to being in Toronto quite yet, because back in my home town people wouldn't think twice about walking with a beer in their hands. As long as they weren't driving.
Anyways, one of the tickets had my name spelt on there wrong. Everyone told me to fight this ticket. Go to court, blah blah blah. I was going to, but I got really sick two days afterwards. (The docters thought it was mono. I lucked out, cause it wasn't.) But I was just to exhausted to arrange anything like that. So now I'm out for a large chunk of cash. Add that on top of the charges I got from the school for bumping a girls rear end through a ****ty ply wood wall, and I'm **** out of money.

Wrapping up,
1) How should that have been delt with for the future? The mispelt ticket
2) How will these miss demeniers effect my record? Is this something that my future employeers will be viewing and deciding the fate of my interviews on? Will this effect my ability to travel in anyway?

 

[Dust 2 Dust]

How will these miss demeniers effect my record? Is this something that my future employeers will be viewing and deciding the fate of my interviews on? Will this effect my ability to travel in anyway?

I wouldn't worry about a misdemeanor. Most job applications will ask if you've ever been convicted of a FELONY, but misdemeanors are ignored for the most part during the application and interview process. The only positions where misdemeanors will typically count against you is if your applying for a law enforcement job.

When it comes to international travel your arrest record certainly comes into play based on what country your trying to enter. For example, the United States typically rejects Visa applications for foreigners with felony convictions who are trying to enter the US. If you're a Canadian citizen with only misdemeanors you should be fine if you ever wanted to visit the US.

 

[AaJ321]

Thank you. I wasn't to worried but I thought it would be a good idea to check

 

[Levex]

Get a small digital voice recorder and keep it in your car. When pulled over turn it on and stick it somewhere where it can clearly pick up the conversation.

Some cops are real POS and will lie to anyone, including the judge if you decide to take him to court, thats just one way to protect yourself.

If you can get a cop recorded saying "you were going as fast as i say you were going", you're golden.

 

[Bible_Belt]

levex, that's not a bad idea, but fwiw at least in the state of Illinois, carrying a hidden recording device and recording another person's conversation without telling him first is a felony. You would have to tell the cop first thing that he is being recorded. I am not sure about the laws of other states.