taiyuu_otoko
Master Don Juan
Your instincts that constantly cry out for food, sex, shelter and safety might have a thing or two to say about that...
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My instincts? They are still products of my being and my existence. Just because we have instincts does not mean we do not have our own will and self-determination... There have been those in history who chose to stop eating and have hunger strikes, there are those who have risked their own safety as a self-determined choice to follow their ideals.
Survival is a major function of man, perhaps our primary function as elucidated by Darwinian theories on biology and genetics. But that is not an argument against self-determination, which can be more powerful than even our instinctual drives for survival.
taiyuu_otoko
Master Don Juan
Does your model allow for subconscious behavior? Things like cognitive bias, confirmation bias, etc. Not trying to argue, just curious how you handle such powerful influences when they often contradict consciously chosen "will."
If your self-determination MUST conform to your instincts, then is it really YOUR self-determination, or just a unique expression of your instincts?
Based on Darwin's theories, in "The Selfish Gene," Dawkins postulated that the whole concept of "we" including any ideas about self-determination is really just a hallucinatory tool of our genes to replicate.
That all of our "human" traits (self determination, free will, etc) are merely tools in the never-ending competition between genes to replicate.
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BlueAlpha1
Guest
I live in central Florida. I feel you.
Somehow I got diverted into defending "atheism" against Christianity as is always the case with hyper-sensitive religious folk, when the point I was really making is that this is rising up as a new religion that is probably crazier than Mormonism, Scientology, and Orthodox Judaism combined. When you hear "spiritual but not religious" you think harmless right? They kept the good and dumped the evil. But it's more like a reverse Wicca where all of the pseudoscience, metaphysics, and spells can be used only for "unconditional love", even in the face of the pure evil that is real life.
Think about the claim made in that video - that the earth is a conscious observer with feelings and awareness. This is one of the goofiest things I've ever heard, but we're told to "respect other people's opinions", even if those opinions are 1000x worse than say Holocaust denial at the level of rationality. These protected claims usually include that the stars themselves are speaking to you in vibrations or something along these lines...
I would just brush it off if these people kept it to themselves, but when these culture-stealing white girls tattoo the word "Om" on their inner wrist after 5 sessions of pseudo-eastern meditations, while drinking Starbucks and buying iPhones that implicate them in the Chinese slave trade, I reserve the right to laugh and mock.
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BlueAlpha1
Guest
LOL I've heard this one!
I have a friend who uses the word "energy" constantly. He thinks it's "contagious", but not in the social sense of treating people the way you want to be treated, but in a metaphysical sense as though he's talking about multi-colored orbs following people around, consciously coming and going according to how you live your life on a moment to moment basis.
Not so ironically this dude has a serious god complex - he's going to be "the greatest rapper who ever lived" with a $500 million net worth. But not because of a detailed and determined plan to get there, but because he's one of "the chosen ones". Or something...
BeTheChange
Master Don Juan
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I am also familiar with his works. And although he is an "atheist" I would possibly put him the category of spiritual but not religious in the sense that some of his views on the nature of reality and self transcendence aren't entirely scientific.
BlueAlpha, you are wasting your time on this thread. It's quite interesting to see some otherwise very intelligent posters make completely incoherent arguments to protect their emotional investments. Such is the power of religion and beliefs and the intellectual blind spots they create. Harris actually talks about this.
Comparmentalisation of the mind is so powerful that it is possible for a man to be smart enough to build a nuclear bomb and yet still believe in the Bible as the true word of God. I have found that you can't really convince a religious person of anything on this topics. They have thrown away logic. Some will try and use bastardised attempts at logical arguments but the weaknesses are clear to most reasonable spectators.
Sartre reborn as Ivan Karamazov. How can this be?
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BlueAlpha1
Guest
Very true. Thanks for your support.
I'd like to point out that Harris goes out of his way to distinguish himself from typical "spirituality". He has been known to use the word because we don't really have another word for self-transcendence without religion, but he clearly denounces all metaphysics and wuwu. He's talking about the incredible power of meditation to improve your moment to moment perception and relationships, not an afterlife or a creator.
Bill Maher puts it best when he says "otherwise intelligent people wall off a part of their brain on this one issue." And it all stems back to one thing: fear of death. This is the beginning, middle, and end of religion. Religions, gods, and this idea of something "greater than ourselves" goes back to the crippling fact that we are not immortal. What gets me though is we are implored to "respect" these beliefs, as though they are an equal and opposite to evolution. Sure you have the right to believe what you want but no, I do not respect the Bible or the Quran. I think they're hideous.
Bible_Belt
Master Don Juan
I do not respect the Bible
Well there's a news flash. Thanks for spelling that one out, Captain Obvious.
Did it ever occur to either of you two geniuses that your beliefs might come from your own psychological and social inadequacies? It's comforting to think you know everything, isn't it? That makes you the same as all those religious people that you think you're so much better than.
Well there's a news flash. Thanks for spelling that one out, Captain Obvious.
Did it ever occur to either of you two geniuses that your beliefs might come from your own psychological and social inadequacies? It's comforting to think you know everything, isn't it? That makes you the same as all those religious people that you think you're so much better than.
speed dawg
Master Don Juan
Except that you don't.
We really control nothing, if you think about it. The only thing you can control is how you react to a circumstance.
I was born Eastern Orthodox, supposedly I am even possessed by a demon (if you would believe my family). I have read the bible many times...You are Satan
Satan defied God out of envy and pride and to usurp God and take the throne himself. I do not defy God to usurp him and to become king of all dominion, I defy God because of simple principle.
Suppose God is omniscient and omnipotent as they say...Then he made me who I was, and gave me the mind that I have. Thus, my independence and defiance was entirely his creation, and therefore I am just an extension of his own will. Entirely possible, but if such then I should continue being as I am for God made it such.
Suppose God gave man free will and decides to not exert his influence on it... Then I am only doing as my will intends, the very will that I was given by God. My defiance is a product of my real self and my humanity. If I was given free will then it should be the logical expectation that I would exercise it... God would not be very omniscient if could not understand or predict this ultimate outcome.
Suppose there is no God? Then I am just being what I am...
And Sam Harris seems to think free will does not exist... His idea is my antithesis as much as religion. Without will then we exist only as robots... We exist only as preprogramed entities with no real meaning nor any way to create meaning from it. Without either God nor a sense of will to create purpose from existence then all that is left is nihilism... That is a far more destructive idea than religion... I do not think you fully comprehend the actual destructiveness such ideas would have if they were adopted by the masses. People hold on to God, spiritual beliefs, existentialism, philosophy and such because we must believe in something. Mankind must have some purpose, even if it is one we created. Nihilism is a disease, a destructive one. If I thought for a second that Sam Harris was right then I would have no qualms about anything, I would destroy everything, because nothing would matter. Why give a damn if there is no point? Despite you quoting Sam Harris I know that you must believe in something too, it may not be God, but you must believe in something that keeps you going.
This is why there is religion and why it has existed as long as mankind has... Because people need SOMETHING to believe in... The actual alternative is worse.
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BlueAlpha1
Guest
This is projection of the highest order. It is your side that is drowning in narcissism and it is the atheist who is humble. You simply can't get it through your thick head that atheists don't claim to know anything, much less everything. An atheist claims we need to learn more and be skeptical. You claim to have the creator of the universe on your side, who loves you and with whom you have a personal relationship with, while all we say is we don't know the beginnings and we shouldn't accept things on bad evidence.
I am open to evidence for your god if you could prove it to me, rather than giving me allegorical and self-contradictory claims written by illiterate peasants 2,000 years ago. But then again, I"m being too kind to you. To you it's not allegorical. The Bible is the literal word of god, so while God the Father said an eye for an eye, and God the Son said turn the other cheek, they're both right and they're both wrong.
Debating you is utterly pointless. You are not the pseudo-religious person dabbling in narcissism who deep down knows it's not true, you are the religious fundamentalist for which there is no end to your narcissism.
I know this makes your stomach turn but there is a very strong probability that you don't get to live forever. You die just like everything else in the universe.
Which brings me to my ultimate point...
People need something to believe in... If they believe in crystals, or spirits, or the flying spaghetti monster or whatever then fine... Belief in something is part of human nature. So long as it is harmless, benign, then I am fine with it. In fact, belief can be very productive. Jesus may make a rather good role model for people to follow as he was humble and willing to help others, for instance. Religion is neutral, people have done great works and also great harm from it but it was ultimately not religion but the people doing it that made the choice. But religion is just a part of belief, and belief is just a part of human nature (an essential part as even atheists like myself believe in SOMETHING). I see no harm in religion, we all have different perspectives and different views... Perspective is the only reality.
That being said, I rather welcome theses "new age" spiritual but not religious people because they seem benign.
People need something to believe in... If they believe in crystals, or spirits, or the flying spaghetti monster or whatever then fine... Belief in something is part of human nature. So long as it is harmless, benign, then I am fine with it. In fact, belief can be very productive. Jesus may make a rather good role model for people to follow as he was humble and willing to help others, for instance. Religion is neutral, people have done great works and also great harm from it but it was ultimately not religion but the people doing it that made the choice. But religion is just a part of belief, and belief is just a part of human nature (an essential part as even atheists like myself believe in SOMETHING). I see no harm in religion, we all have different perspectives and different views... Perspective is the only reality.
That being said, I rather welcome theses "new age" spiritual but not religious people because they seem benign.
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BlueAlpha1
Guest
We do not have to believe in something. I believe in nothing after death and I get along just fine. Sure I struggle like everyone else, but I don't feel life is pointless and don't want to hurt anybody.
What we have here is you have taken a step back from BibleBelt who is rather amusingly arguing that his religion is the one true religion. You are arguing that it may or may not be true, but it is useful. First of all, it doesn't matter if it's useful. I'm interested in what's true because as I'll explain, we don't need fairy tales to give us a sense of purpose. And given that, the only thing relevant is whether its true.
Here I am, an atheist, who does good just for the sake of doing good, not because I believe in some reward later or because I want to placate the creator of the universe. The idea that we cannot have ethical intuitions without religion is a strawman designed to flip the onus back on the atheist. But the believer has unknowingly conceded the argument by tacitly acknowledging it's probably not true "But hey, we still need it!". There is no such thing as objective morality - we all define our own morality in our moment to moment experiences, albeit some better than others, and atheistic societies like Holland, Norway, and Japan are getting along just fine (in fact better than everyone.) That is until the uber-religious Muslims invaded their countries...
The atheist do-gooder is actually a lot more honest and genuine - the religious person has an ulterior motive. I do good because doing good is it's own reward, because biology can explain why I am kind to my family and by extension to strangers. I love my family because dopamine, endorphin, and the 5 senses more than justify why an "unspiritual" person can do good things. The brain is a very complex and advanced group of cells and it is not hard to comprehend why we eat tasty food, pursue sex, or do good deeds. Because they all feel good. If you have ever done a good deed without having god in mind, you understand this. There is a perfectly reasonable scientific explanation for it all.
And it's curious that you invoke religion as a constraint on society - a moderating influence if you will. Islam has claimed the lives of 270 million people in the name of its religion, and while Christianity has cleaned up its act, it has a vile and brutal history also. I won't even get into the horrors of the old Hindu caste system and other earstern religions. By contrast, Stalin and Pol Pot were brutal dictators who didn't act in the name of atheism because that's impossible. As I explained earlier atheism is an identity as much as a non-astrologer is an identity. If atheism is not a belief system it is difficult for one to act in its name.
Either way, Asmodeus, thanks for the robust debate on a civil level. I definitely agree that it can be useful to SOME, IF it is benign. And I agree that the New Age types are benign compared to many others. But their claims are pretty wild, and because it's 2016 atheists don't have to keep their mouths shut about it anymore.
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My family being Eastern Orthodox would tell you that Atheism can be just as destructive. It has just never been a dominant force in many places, EXCEPT my family's former home... Religion was called the enemy of Marxism. Certainly you can argue it was politics and not religion, but the adoption of atheism in the system was pressed with the same fervor as we see with ISIS and Islam.
The October revolution saw the death of 2,000 priests. Over 50,000 clergy were murdered in the 1930s. There was a famous case of a priest who they crucified... The Orthodox Serbs of Bosnia were target very harshly under the rule of the USSR, I am not kidding when I say thousands upon thousands of people (my people mind you as I am a Serb) were persecuted or killed simply for their beliefs.
In fact from Wikipedia: "The total number of Christian victims of Soviet state atheist policies, has been estimated to range between 12-20 million.[6][7][8]"
Like I said, it you can say it was politics, you can say "atheism does not believe in anything" but the USSR justified these killings and brutality under the banner of Atheism, under the argument that atheism was better and that religion should be eradicated. Just as with how ISIS justifies their brutality under the banner of Islam saying that other belief's should be eradicated.
I do not mean to insult atheism... I am an atheist. I only mean to show that fanaticism and fundamentalism is dangerous in anything. Atheism is not above corruption.
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Why the attack on Christianity? Dont you atheists have anything to say about the religion of peace ? AKA islam? And im not taking this butthurt but atheists ALWAYS single out Christians while ignoring the many other God believing religions. Sure pick on the most peaceful religion...id like to see atheists go out in from of a mosque with pro abortion and anti god picketing or try an set up a baphomet statue in a muslim country, allah will have ur fkin head son.
if anything everyone on this board should be thanking Christians for your very existence. Christians are the only thing that stopped the muslim hordes from sacking europe multiple times, you could be named abdi right now...you all have Christian names Im willing to put money on it. Show some respect.
if anything everyone on this board should be thanking Christians for your very existence. Christians are the only thing that stopped the muslim hordes from sacking europe multiple times, you could be named abdi right now...you all have Christian names Im willing to put money on it. Show some respect.
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BlueAlpha1
Guest
Is that for me? Relax bro, because I'm about to give you want you want, but first let me correct you on one thing. Christianity is not the most peaceful religion. That would be Jainism of east India. You need to study eastern religions before you make a bold statement like that.
Now, Islam is BY FAR the worst religion on the planet and has been for 1,400 years. Fortunately Christianity has been reformed over the last 100-200 years and is largely a force for good around the world now, and Muslim apologists can't point to an equivalent to ISIS. The closest they come up with is the Westboro Baptist Church, which is 35 laywers who troll funerals with provocative signs. Besides that they have to go back to the Crusades 1,000 years and point to lone wolf attacks like Anders Brevik which happen once every few years, meanwhile Islam accounts for 15 terror attacks per day worldwide. Islam is a cancer on the earth.
In fact, I still consider myself an ethnic Christian. I still attend mass on Christmas. My father was married in a Catholic church in 1982 and eulogized in that same church in 2014. It is one of the most sacred places in the world to me now.
Where you and I part company is this "show some respect" rubbish. Ideas without merit are not entitled to respect because at level of rationality, both religions (Islam and Christianity) are 0% true. Muslims want to kill atheists which is one order of barbarity, but Christians in this country don't like atheists either because they're finally speaking up for their beliefs. It's actually your turn to show some respect. BUT, if it takes a "far-right" Christian resistance as the front to stop the Muslim invasion of Europe, they have my FULL support even if I don't believe in god.
Bible_Belt
Master Don Juan
Taoism is somewhat similar to Jainism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism
Westboro came through my bible belt town one time, on their way to picket a funeral. They got their tires slashed. The station wagon with Kansas plates and GOD HATES FAGS bumper stickers was not that hard to find. The police actually worked surveillance for the benefit of the tire-slashers. Then all three of the tire shops in town refused their business. They missed their funeral protest, which was a good thing for them, because there were about 9,000 counter-protestors waiting on them in the next town. They send women and old people for that reason, so they don't get beat up.
Westboro came through my bible belt town one time, on their way to picket a funeral. They got their tires slashed. The station wagon with Kansas plates and GOD HATES FAGS bumper stickers was not that hard to find. The police actually worked surveillance for the benefit of the tire-slashers. Then all three of the tire shops in town refused their business. They missed their funeral protest, which was a good thing for them, because there were about 9,000 counter-protestors waiting on them in the next town. They send women and old people for that reason, so they don't get beat up.
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BlueAlpha1
Guest
I drove through Topeka one time and drove past their church. I'd actually like to sit in sometime as an "investigative journalist" and see if it's legitimate, because some days I think it's one big troll-fest. They're all lawyers, know exactly where the line is, and are making a fortune on it. Even if it's not a troll job it'd be interesting to see a real-life cult (I always liked horror movies, like Population 436 which really reminds you of these freaks)
But it's funny when the Muslim apologists bring them up as some sort of Christian equivalence. 35 nonviolent lawyers shouting vs. 55 Muslim countries, 22 in the Ummah who want the fall of the USA and Israel. It's really a testament to how far Christianity has come.
LOL @BlueAlpha1
Thanks brother it was only SLIGHTLY meant at you, but honestly it was more me ranting on atheists who overall tend to single out Christianity...but wont EVER say a word about islam (probably due to lack of balls/fear/retribution etc).
As for the respect, I just added that in there for dramatics and because I thought it would sound bad ass to end the post that way.
Thanks brother it was only SLIGHTLY meant at you, but honestly it was more me ranting on atheists who overall tend to single out Christianity...but wont EVER say a word about islam (probably due to lack of balls/fear/retribution etc).
As for the respect, I just added that in there for dramatics and because I thought it would sound bad ass to end the post that way.
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BlueAlpha1
Guest
We can agree on a lot then. In short:
1. ISLAM IS THE WORST.
2. Atheists are not required to "respect" Christianity at all, but we have to respect your right to practice it, so long as it is not imposed on us.
3. Christians are not required to "respect" us heathens either, but they have to respect our right to run down Christianity because there is no right not to be offended.
This last part is one thing some Christians don't get, like the leader of the Catholic League who actually said this on TV, that atheists don't have the right to "offend" Christians. This is something 99% of Muslims don't get. Yes, I have every right to be offensive, unless we live in a theocracy.