penkitten
Master Don Juan
i really enjoyed reading this thread, what can you tell us about the author that wrote the book , Matthew Kelly ?
Hello Friend,
If this is your first visit to SoSuave, I would advise you to START HERE.
It will be the most efficient use of your time.
And you will learn everything you need to know to become a huge success with women.
Thank you for visiting and have a great day!
The importance of intimacy and it's relationship with trust.
- Thread starter LovelyLady
- Start date
BeyondCharm
Senior Don Juan
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There was no attack on the source, you are reading into things. Had you seen the original post, it was cluttered. Like a good editor would advise a good author to clean up certain things, I was doing the same. The content is excellent as are most of his posts.logic1 said:
Luthor Rex
Master Don Juan
I agree with Magma on this. By saying we need an "intimate relationship" for some kind of fulfillment, then we have placed our own happiness into the hands of others.Magma said:
Allowing anyone or anything besides yourself to have influence over your happiness is the key to misery.
An intimate relationship is just a preferred-indifferent. That is, I prefer it but it is indifferent to my ultimate happiness.
Luthor Rex
Master Don Juan
This is what I was trying to get to in my thread over here: http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=143954LovelyLady said:
However, it has been my experience that this is exactly what women either don't want or aren't capable of (I'm not sure which actually).
Women's inability to offer me this made me bitter about the since I was in freshman year of high school... it took a long time to get over it. Then I grew up and realized there are just some things you need to learn to let go of.
Which is another good reason why these kinds of things need to be indifferent to your happiness: because when you don't receive what you feel you want / need then you grow bitter.
Like that All American Rejects song says: "I don’t want to need at all."
Exactly.Luthor Rex said:
Like I said before, too many guys won't read this topic diligently because of superficial AFC characteristics. One of these is exactly what you pointed out: intimate relationship is not required but preferred. When these guys read into this topic, they will read into it a bit too much. They will internalize it and subconsciously will seek this intimate aspect next time they get into any type of relationship (fvck buddy, plates, LTR, etc.). They will think that intimacy is required and must be created even if there is little to no compatibility with the woman. In essence, they are lying to themselves when they justify their attitude by saying, "Well, maybe if I try being intimate like LL's thread said, then maybe this relationship will strengthen and progress".
The key is to recognize when there is an intimacy. Rollo's thread about "The Identity Crisis" explains this key factor a little better. You don't try to create a powerful, sexual relationship. It should be there already without you having to think about it. Don't think to yourself, "Ok...I need to get close to her so I'm going to have passionate sex with her". It should be more like, "I can't wait to enjoy this woman from the inside out".
Just as you weren't think about making your best friend...your best friend, you shouldn't be thinking about making your girlfriend...your intimate, romantic partner.
Victory Unlimited
Master Don Juan
Intimacy is REAL.
But what exactly IS this definition of INTIMACY that I speak of?
It is the desire for connection, to know and to BE known. It is a NEED to matter.
And as a result, the Fear of Intimacy is also just as REAL. But it is an adversary, a stalker; a potential Soul-Killer that comes in many guises. Yes, it is a cloaked death-dealer that enters a person's life boldly-------like multiple metaphorical "Trojan horses". And when this FEAR strikes it's Death Blow, all types of dreams and goals are numbered among it's casualties.
But just to name THREE of the many masks that the Fear of Intimacy frequently tends to wear:
FEAR of COMMITMENT: Yes, it is true that this is an oft-used statement thrown out by people trying to "manipulate" others into a bond that is NOT mutually desired. And yes, it is often used by people to blithely discount even the IDEA that it could be possible that they themselves ARE NOT seen as the "Prize" by the object of their affections.
And the list COULD go on and on. So it is well understood that these statements of rebuttal that have already been made by some here ARE true. But the realities and the dangers of EMOTIONAL VULNERABILITY are equally as real. So, please DO NOT miss the next point that I will make "ON PURPOSE"------as is the custom of the apathetic, the bitter, and the proud (whose viewpoints I have already addressed in great depth in THIS POST).
But the way Fear of Intimacy hides within SOME instances where the Fear of Commitment line is thrown out is when a man self-sabotages a burgeoning relationship at the last minute. Sometimes he does it out of his own low self-esteem. Other times he does it because he KNOWS that there is a previously unspoken recognition of a TRUE incompatibility present------dooming the relationship to ultimate failure. And still other times, because the nature of the relationship, or his motivations for entering it NEVER WERE conducive to any kind of long-term connection.
But no matter which example may apply, it was STILL his need to connect, his desire to "BOND" (for no matter how LOFTY or LOWLY a reason------or how BRIEF a time) that inspired him to initiate the interaction.
NEED for DISTRACTION: This is another way that Fear of Intimacy can hide itself. In the past, I have referred to it as "Loneliness in search of CROWD". It is this overwhelming drive that some of us can have to surround ourselves with MANY sources of flesh and blood distractions-------to turn our eyes away, to KEEP us from looking within, and spending time with OURSELVES. Sometimes, it's true, that it's people who would rather NOT know themselves who ALWAYS rush to lose themselves in the process of getting to know OTHER people instead.
And for those of you who doubt that THIS form of a "fear" of Intimacy with OURSELVES exists, I would ask for you to get offline, turn off your TVs, cut off your radios, and unplug and turnoff all your phones. THEN, sit alone for just an hour, and NOTICE how comfortable you are with yourself WITHOUT the distractions of other people, places, or things. How many of us can actually DO this and enjoy our OWN company, AND what we begin to know about ourselves will speak volumes to just how comfortable we are with SELF-INTIMACY alone.
HEDONISTIC ABANDON: This CAN be yet another manifestation of a FEAR OF INTIMACY. Sometimes, a man who lives his life totally devoted to the pursuit of pleasure and self-gratification is often doing it to provide for himself a temporary fix. For him, pleasure in and of itself, acts as a drug--------of the numbing or painkilling variety. Through pleasure, men can, for a time at least, shut off or weaken that NEED inside of them for a true connection-----that burning desire within them to know and to BE KNOWN on a deeper level.
And in this scenario, there exists examples of men's POSSIBLE compulsion to place the importance of ACTIVITY over ACCOMPLISHMENT. They consume their time with SO MANY out-wardly important goals, plans, and projects that they can sometimes successfully ignore their NEED to really connect with other human beings TOTALLY------but only for a time. When the buzz of one thrill ends-----another MUST be sought. When the “conquest” of one woman ends----another MUST be sought. And even as basically as when one EJACULATION is achieved-----yes, ANOTHER one must be sought. Indeed, a man's need for TRUE Intimacy WILL rear it's head again and again, no matter how increasingly UNSATISFYING the means he chooses to satisfy it becomes.
And again, the nature of the relationship does not matter, whether it be friends, lovers, or fukk buddies-------at the end of the day, every man has a hidden desire for at least SOMEBODY to really give a damn about him. And this is not just demonstrative of socially well-adjusted people either. That's why this is true even of vicious gangbangers and serial killers:
What better way to leave your mark on the world than by VIOLENTLY changing the lives of other people (or their SURVIVING families)? True, this is a negative and MORBID form of "connecting" with the world, but I'm SURE you get my point.
In Conclusion…
The thrill and satisfaction that comes with accomplishment are great things indeed. But greater STILL is the inner joy and peace that a man gets when his accomplishments reach a higher level of success. That level of success where he recognizes that his life is not given to him simply for him to JUST be "happy", but rather, to ALSO be SIGNIFICANT----to matter.
To affect the lives of others in such a way that only HIS being here alive during his brief time on earth COULD. Many non-relationship-centric endeavors tend to PALE in comparison...
I will leave it to the statisticians, the social "scientists", and the Bob Costas fans to go get the numbers, BUT I will only share with you that I personally know of many cases where people on their death beds have cried in utter despair over estranged, broken, or failed RELATIONSHIPS. And whether those relationships in question were friends, family, or LOVERS--------the fact that they are all "relationships" is undeniable.
And PROOF that they were intimate, or that they represented "missed opportunities" FOR intimacy is in the reality of the REGRET that that dying person was expressing in THAT moment------even to the point of grieving.
GRIEF is a word that is associated with LOSS.
LOSS is a word that is associated with the awareness that something has either been taken from you, or is NOW no longer in your possession for some reason------it is a sense that a connection was broken, or a recognition that the CHANCE for such a connection is NO MORE.
So let us NOT delude ourselves, all you "soldiers of (hopefully) GOOD fortune". Life is ALL about relationships.
And all relationships are forms of ESTABLISHED INTIMACY.
A man's relationship with others. A man's relationship with "things". And MOST importantly, that man's relationship with HIMSELF. A man's search for intimacy is ALWAYS proven in his desire for these connections, and to what lengths he's willing to go to obtain them.
Yes even in these times in which we live where the UNPRINCIPLED are heralded and the DISHONORABLE are honored-------these "Scoundrel Days"...men STILL seek intimacy. A man STILL wants to MATTER----to himself, and to those around him.
He ALWAYS wants to have SOME sort of an impact.
To make a difference...in a world of INDIFFERENCE.
PEACE...One day.
But what exactly IS this definition of INTIMACY that I speak of?
It is the desire for connection, to know and to BE known. It is a NEED to matter.
And as a result, the Fear of Intimacy is also just as REAL. But it is an adversary, a stalker; a potential Soul-Killer that comes in many guises. Yes, it is a cloaked death-dealer that enters a person's life boldly-------like multiple metaphorical "Trojan horses". And when this FEAR strikes it's Death Blow, all types of dreams and goals are numbered among it's casualties.
But just to name THREE of the many masks that the Fear of Intimacy frequently tends to wear:
FEAR of COMMITMENT: Yes, it is true that this is an oft-used statement thrown out by people trying to "manipulate" others into a bond that is NOT mutually desired. And yes, it is often used by people to blithely discount even the IDEA that it could be possible that they themselves ARE NOT seen as the "Prize" by the object of their affections.
And the list COULD go on and on. So it is well understood that these statements of rebuttal that have already been made by some here ARE true. But the realities and the dangers of EMOTIONAL VULNERABILITY are equally as real. So, please DO NOT miss the next point that I will make "ON PURPOSE"------as is the custom of the apathetic, the bitter, and the proud (whose viewpoints I have already addressed in great depth in THIS POST).
But the way Fear of Intimacy hides within SOME instances where the Fear of Commitment line is thrown out is when a man self-sabotages a burgeoning relationship at the last minute. Sometimes he does it out of his own low self-esteem. Other times he does it because he KNOWS that there is a previously unspoken recognition of a TRUE incompatibility present------dooming the relationship to ultimate failure. And still other times, because the nature of the relationship, or his motivations for entering it NEVER WERE conducive to any kind of long-term connection.
But no matter which example may apply, it was STILL his need to connect, his desire to "BOND" (for no matter how LOFTY or LOWLY a reason------or how BRIEF a time) that inspired him to initiate the interaction.
NEED for DISTRACTION: This is another way that Fear of Intimacy can hide itself. In the past, I have referred to it as "Loneliness in search of CROWD". It is this overwhelming drive that some of us can have to surround ourselves with MANY sources of flesh and blood distractions-------to turn our eyes away, to KEEP us from looking within, and spending time with OURSELVES. Sometimes, it's true, that it's people who would rather NOT know themselves who ALWAYS rush to lose themselves in the process of getting to know OTHER people instead.
And for those of you who doubt that THIS form of a "fear" of Intimacy with OURSELVES exists, I would ask for you to get offline, turn off your TVs, cut off your radios, and unplug and turnoff all your phones. THEN, sit alone for just an hour, and NOTICE how comfortable you are with yourself WITHOUT the distractions of other people, places, or things. How many of us can actually DO this and enjoy our OWN company, AND what we begin to know about ourselves will speak volumes to just how comfortable we are with SELF-INTIMACY alone.
HEDONISTIC ABANDON: This CAN be yet another manifestation of a FEAR OF INTIMACY. Sometimes, a man who lives his life totally devoted to the pursuit of pleasure and self-gratification is often doing it to provide for himself a temporary fix. For him, pleasure in and of itself, acts as a drug--------of the numbing or painkilling variety. Through pleasure, men can, for a time at least, shut off or weaken that NEED inside of them for a true connection-----that burning desire within them to know and to BE KNOWN on a deeper level.
And in this scenario, there exists examples of men's POSSIBLE compulsion to place the importance of ACTIVITY over ACCOMPLISHMENT. They consume their time with SO MANY out-wardly important goals, plans, and projects that they can sometimes successfully ignore their NEED to really connect with other human beings TOTALLY------but only for a time. When the buzz of one thrill ends-----another MUST be sought. When the “conquest” of one woman ends----another MUST be sought. And even as basically as when one EJACULATION is achieved-----yes, ANOTHER one must be sought. Indeed, a man's need for TRUE Intimacy WILL rear it's head again and again, no matter how increasingly UNSATISFYING the means he chooses to satisfy it becomes.
And again, the nature of the relationship does not matter, whether it be friends, lovers, or fukk buddies-------at the end of the day, every man has a hidden desire for at least SOMEBODY to really give a damn about him. And this is not just demonstrative of socially well-adjusted people either. That's why this is true even of vicious gangbangers and serial killers:
What better way to leave your mark on the world than by VIOLENTLY changing the lives of other people (or their SURVIVING families)? True, this is a negative and MORBID form of "connecting" with the world, but I'm SURE you get my point.
In Conclusion…
The thrill and satisfaction that comes with accomplishment are great things indeed. But greater STILL is the inner joy and peace that a man gets when his accomplishments reach a higher level of success. That level of success where he recognizes that his life is not given to him simply for him to JUST be "happy", but rather, to ALSO be SIGNIFICANT----to matter.
To affect the lives of others in such a way that only HIS being here alive during his brief time on earth COULD. Many non-relationship-centric endeavors tend to PALE in comparison...
I will leave it to the statisticians, the social "scientists", and the Bob Costas fans to go get the numbers, BUT I will only share with you that I personally know of many cases where people on their death beds have cried in utter despair over estranged, broken, or failed RELATIONSHIPS. And whether those relationships in question were friends, family, or LOVERS--------the fact that they are all "relationships" is undeniable.
And PROOF that they were intimate, or that they represented "missed opportunities" FOR intimacy is in the reality of the REGRET that that dying person was expressing in THAT moment------even to the point of grieving.
GRIEF is a word that is associated with LOSS.
LOSS is a word that is associated with the awareness that something has either been taken from you, or is NOW no longer in your possession for some reason------it is a sense that a connection was broken, or a recognition that the CHANCE for such a connection is NO MORE.
So let us NOT delude ourselves, all you "soldiers of (hopefully) GOOD fortune". Life is ALL about relationships.
And all relationships are forms of ESTABLISHED INTIMACY.
A man's relationship with others. A man's relationship with "things". And MOST importantly, that man's relationship with HIMSELF. A man's search for intimacy is ALWAYS proven in his desire for these connections, and to what lengths he's willing to go to obtain them.
Yes even in these times in which we live where the UNPRINCIPLED are heralded and the DISHONORABLE are honored-------these "Scoundrel Days"...men STILL seek intimacy. A man STILL wants to MATTER----to himself, and to those around him.
He ALWAYS wants to have SOME sort of an impact.
To make a difference...in a world of INDIFFERENCE.
PEACE...One day.
Great post VU. Reading it, I had some of my own insights. How I've always kept people at a distance. Built walls. Isolated myself. We are social creatures, we need to have connections. With friends, family, and chicks.
I used to want to connect so deeply that like a regular AFC I put ALL my hopes and dreams in a woman. Which we all know has and will never work.
Then you go to the next extreme, which is completely shutting down your emotions, and viewing woman as purely sexual creatures. Which is KIND OF where I'm at now. And that's because it's so new to me. It's kind of nice to only see women as fun, and not the answer to my problems. I'm sure this will evolve over time. In one of your older posts you mentioned building calluses over wounds, and that's what's happening to me. I've got more armor. Hopefully it's not so strong that it will keep real connection out, but right now I do need it.
Your part about being by yourself, and seeing if you can stand your own company, is of course, the answer to this entire thing. What we don't have within, we tend to seek without. Then you get close--and it's like all these landmines that were just sitting there, you're going to step on one. We get close and our facade goes down, the problems we ignored in ourselves, are going to come right to the surface. It's probably going to end up hurting both parties.
If you don't truly love and respect, admire, and nurture yourself, you will not have meaningful relationships. It's literally impossible. Because a meaningful relationship by definition is two people bringing the best of themselves into that relationship. A lot of AFCs and recovering ones, don't really have a connection to those best parts of themselves. If you are not in touch with you, how and the hell can you be in touch with someone ELSE at the same time?
Anyway good post. You HAVE to face those dark parts of yourself, and deal with them, and change them, and transmute them to something positive. No other option. I'm trying, it's not easy work.
I used to want to connect so deeply that like a regular AFC I put ALL my hopes and dreams in a woman. Which we all know has and will never work.
Then you go to the next extreme, which is completely shutting down your emotions, and viewing woman as purely sexual creatures. Which is KIND OF where I'm at now. And that's because it's so new to me. It's kind of nice to only see women as fun, and not the answer to my problems. I'm sure this will evolve over time. In one of your older posts you mentioned building calluses over wounds, and that's what's happening to me. I've got more armor. Hopefully it's not so strong that it will keep real connection out, but right now I do need it.
Your part about being by yourself, and seeing if you can stand your own company, is of course, the answer to this entire thing. What we don't have within, we tend to seek without. Then you get close--and it's like all these landmines that were just sitting there, you're going to step on one. We get close and our facade goes down, the problems we ignored in ourselves, are going to come right to the surface. It's probably going to end up hurting both parties.
If you don't truly love and respect, admire, and nurture yourself, you will not have meaningful relationships. It's literally impossible. Because a meaningful relationship by definition is two people bringing the best of themselves into that relationship. A lot of AFCs and recovering ones, don't really have a connection to those best parts of themselves. If you are not in touch with you, how and the hell can you be in touch with someone ELSE at the same time?
Anyway good post. You HAVE to face those dark parts of yourself, and deal with them, and change them, and transmute them to something positive. No other option. I'm trying, it's not easy work.
Victory Unlimited
Master Don Juan
Yo LovelyLady,
I tried to Rep you for this great post, but the "system" wouldn't let me. Say's I have to Rep somebody else for a change.
Oh well, anyway...I just wanted to say:
"Yo LL, way to rock "The Mic"!" (Sorry...I just had an 80's flashback). :crackup:
And to Brother RESET,
Good insights, dude. And as far as your mention of my "previous" mention of how life can scar us, and how the resourceful soldier can use those callouses as ARMOR to protect himself from sustaining future wounds...remember this ONE thing:
Wearing ARMOR is good...as long as we don't let it "cover our EYES".
We run the risk of losing TOO MUCH when we allow ourselves to be tempted to GIVE UP our visions of success at relationships (or ANYTHING ELSE, for that matter), due to an unwillingness to look more positively towards possibilities of better opportunities in the future. To reach out to others, OR to let others reach IN to us, is always a situationally specific choice. And developing our sense of discernment (our Internal Alarm System) provides us with our best chance for success.
Because we're ALL on the same mission to learn, improve, and "IMPART", my friend. So we're gonna have our misteps, but as long as we keep our eyes on pursuing what's best for our HOLISTIC good, we'll be okay. Because QUITTING this march to a BETTER overall life is NOT an option for me, for YOU, or for anybody else on here with HOPE still burning in their hearts.
That's why we've got to remember to always "Keep it Movin'" while we------
MARCH ON.
I tried to Rep you for this great post, but the "system" wouldn't let me. Say's I have to Rep somebody else for a change.
Oh well, anyway...I just wanted to say:
"Yo LL, way to rock "The Mic"!" (Sorry...I just had an 80's flashback). :crackup:
And to Brother RESET,
Good insights, dude. And as far as your mention of my "previous" mention of how life can scar us, and how the resourceful soldier can use those callouses as ARMOR to protect himself from sustaining future wounds...remember this ONE thing:
Wearing ARMOR is good...as long as we don't let it "cover our EYES".
We run the risk of losing TOO MUCH when we allow ourselves to be tempted to GIVE UP our visions of success at relationships (or ANYTHING ELSE, for that matter), due to an unwillingness to look more positively towards possibilities of better opportunities in the future. To reach out to others, OR to let others reach IN to us, is always a situationally specific choice. And developing our sense of discernment (our Internal Alarm System) provides us with our best chance for success.
Because we're ALL on the same mission to learn, improve, and "IMPART", my friend. So we're gonna have our misteps, but as long as we keep our eyes on pursuing what's best for our HOLISTIC good, we'll be okay. Because QUITTING this march to a BETTER overall life is NOT an option for me, for YOU, or for anybody else on here with HOPE still burning in their hearts.
That's why we've got to remember to always "Keep it Movin'" while we------
MARCH ON.
I'm a big fan of conciseness because it forces you to condense your thoughts into just their essence...into the most widely applicable statement possible...into a "philosophy" which can be used to analyze and study many situations.
Intimacy is letting others share your life including those parts which you'd like to keep secret. People often think that intimacy will not contribute to their wellbeing and happiness because they know that it's diffiult to find someone they can trust not to hurt them. In order to share with someone, they have to share with you first, and it's therefore a game of chicken. You'll never touch the other person till they touch you and vice versa. Someone usually jumps ship. Duuuuurrr
Intimacy is letting others share your life including those parts which you'd like to keep secret. People often think that intimacy will not contribute to their wellbeing and happiness because they know that it's diffiult to find someone they can trust not to hurt them. In order to share with someone, they have to share with you first, and it's therefore a game of chicken. You'll never touch the other person till they touch you and vice versa. Someone usually jumps ship. Duuuuurrr
ThePhantomOfTheForum
New Member
Trust is an illusion, a trojan horse!
You must coax beauty with words of magical allure, you must show it a world in which it can thrive!!! Ah, the innocent and beautiful are the ones who will destroy you, if you are fool enough to think an intimate moment will lead to their trust... and lead you to trust them! Only the beloved can truly trust... and only the lover will be destroyed!
You must coax it, then teach it to flourish, only then shall teacher become the student. And never reveal your face!
You must coax beauty with words of magical allure, you must show it a world in which it can thrive!!! Ah, the innocent and beautiful are the ones who will destroy you, if you are fool enough to think an intimate moment will lead to their trust... and lead you to trust them! Only the beloved can truly trust... and only the lover will be destroyed!
You must coax it, then teach it to flourish, only then shall teacher become the student. And never reveal your face!
LovelyLady
Senior Don Juan
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2007
- Messages
- 437
- Reaction score
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Differentiating a Solid Foundation from Building Blocks of Intimacy
(A ceveat: I recognize that the following is simplified and trust it will be read within the context of building intimacy in romantic relationships - although I believe the basic principles apply in all intimate relationships)
An exploration of building blocks often unsuccessfully used for foundation.
The Use of Common Interests as Foundation
Isn't it great when you find someone who likes what you like? If your passion is motorcycles and you meet someone who loves to ride too... hiking is your number one interest and Wow! it's her's to! or you collect antiques and she has an antique store! Why, it's a match made in heaven! LOL
It is wonderful to share a common interest with someone. But isn't it also possible to be riding or hiking with someone and feel completely disconnected from them? Isn't it possible to be at a flea market ferreting out great treasures and feel the person with the same interest is judgemental of your tastes, cold to you - and in essence feel more isolated and alone in that crowd of people with her than you ever felt going to the flea market alone?
Common interests can be a tool to create an environment to experience companionship and build rapport in,- but it is not a strong/reliable FOUNDATION for building a LTR with genuine intimacy as it's goal. (Also consider interests change over time).
The Use of Intellect as Foundation
We've all met the person: well educated, well read, possessing a mind like a sponge. How exciting to be with someone who stimulates your mind! Challenges you to explore new concepts and bases of knowledge about interesting things! And how positively magical if their field of study and education matches yours! The heavens open and the birds sing! LOL
Or do they? Just as often a sharp intellect can be accompanied by arrogance, ego, a lack of tolerence, a spirit of competition and results in a distance from the person, rather than a bond.
So the similarity/appreciation of i.q. range and educational background can be a commonality that can foster interactions to move towards intimacy, but it is not intimacy in and of itself.
The Use of Emotional/Mental Expression as Foundation
"He is able to cry in front of me" "I speak my mind and tell it like I see it" "I'm a straight shooter" "If I'm pissed, I make sure people know" "I wear my heart on my sleeve".
It can be refreshing to be with someone who is in touch with how life emotionally moves them. There is little depth of intimacy offered by the emotionally detached person.
However, too often people mistake the open expression of emotion with emotional intimacy. The person who is willing to share a thought or feeling, but lacks insight into the source, and lacks the the ability to deal with it maturely can sabatoge the success of a relationship. The person who is a walking emotional reaction to every interaction requires audience and witness to his/her emotional experience and drains others of their resources.
Emotional/verbal expression (ability to emote) is not in and of itself foundation.
The Use of Physical Requirements/Manifestations as Foundation
This is not sexual interaction (addressed below); this is about appearances. This is when you meet a person who "looks" like what your image of the perfect person is for you. Her breasts are your favorite size, her hair is so long and sexy, she is your proverbial HB10. AND for women: he meets your height requirement and dresses in a style that speaks to you - you believe his taste in jewelry, cologne, shoes are all strong indicators of his inherent value. It is the image of the person that matches the "picture" of what you think your "perfect" partner will look like. Your ideal image.
It can include the woman who only wears dresses, the right lingerie - the man who drives the certain car, holds the certain job. It is possession/image/role focused.
When you meet/see a person that fits that ideal of physical/material requirements you may think: This could be The One!
Where's the flaw in thinking this is a valid foundation for LTR genuine intimacy? God forbid, two years later she is in a car wreck and brutally burned. Where is the bedrock for intimacy when the outer trappings are lost?
He is so tall, drives a (whatever), and has an "impressive" job. Well, as a woman you just committed your LTR and intimacy needs and gifts on the belief of the physical as foundation... THEN, God forbid, he just got in a car wreck. Guess what? He will be in a wheel chair for the rest of his life - he's not taller than you anymore is he? (No disrespect intended here) or that job you identified him with as being his primary value - gone. The entire industry has become obsolete.
That physical image - that role that we may identify as being critical to identifying a person capable and worthy of intimacy is not solid material (pun intended) for building a foundation for a dynamic, intimate LTR. It only represents the "what" we love - but there is no "who".
The Use of Similar Lifestyle Values as Foundation
You both love living in the heart of the city. You both drink green tea. You both think filet mignon cooked just so is food of the Gods. Isn't it great when we connect with someone who shares our same lifestyle values? Isn't common lifestyle values what everyone says is the foundation for a successful relationship?
Then why do so many relationships with this as their foundation unravel? Well, five years into the relationship her business sent her to a remote resort in the mountains for 2 weeks and it changed her forever - she realizes that the city no longer offers her the environment that resonates with her inner self. He went deep sea fishing with 'the boys', realizes he wants to live by the ocean away from the energy of the city. What if one of them becomes a vegetarian 5 years into their "filet mignon lovin' lifestyle"? LOL
If the foundational belief is that these shared lifestyle values provide the core support for the relationship - there will be trouble in paradise.
The Use of Sexual Activity/intercourse Limited to "Animal" Attraction as Foundation (Not sexual attraction based on the knowledge of eachother that comes through genuine intimacy, but instant animal attraction void of genuine knowledge of the "other", if you will)
One look, one smell of the other person, and who wants to talk? Where's the bedroom - uh - oh - hey - forget the bedroom - let's do "it" right here - right now!... and later... Wow, that was fabulous f****** this MUST be LOVE!!!
But does a sexual high produce a healthy foundation for genuine intimacy? When sexing on a level void of authentic interpersonal connection the human body produces mass amounts of epinephrine - which makes one feel nervous, restless, agitated and excited. Many people identify this bioligical response as`"being in love".
So, where's the weakness in having this as the foundation? Epinephrine suppresses the immune system, results in depression, irritabilty, headaches, chronic depression and fatigue. It is not healthy.
Compare this to the chemical/bioligical reaction when sexual arousal and activity/intercourse is experienced with a person who we share a mindful,loving, personal connection with. Oxytocin is produced in much larger volumes than in the previous scenerio. It results in feelings of trust, empathy, closeness, intimate connection. It reduces fear and anxiety.
While arguably comparatively small amounts of oxytocin are present with "casual/animal" encounters, the damaging effects of the (presumably) less desirable effects of epinephrine would make the sexual encounter based solely on "animal" attraction a weak foundation to build a rewarding genuinely intimate relationship on.
********
In summation, common interests, intellect, emotional/mental freedom of expression, physical manifestions of the ideal, similar lifestyle values, and sexual "animal attraction" can serve as wonderful BUILDING BLOCKS in developing intimacy with a partner - but do not serve the intimate relationship well when used as a source for THE FOUNDATION.
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(A ceveat: I recognize that the following is simplified and trust it will be read within the context of building intimacy in romantic relationships - although I believe the basic principles apply in all intimate relationships)
An exploration of building blocks often unsuccessfully used for foundation.
The Use of Common Interests as Foundation
Isn't it great when you find someone who likes what you like? If your passion is motorcycles and you meet someone who loves to ride too... hiking is your number one interest and Wow! it's her's to! or you collect antiques and she has an antique store! Why, it's a match made in heaven! LOL
It is wonderful to share a common interest with someone. But isn't it also possible to be riding or hiking with someone and feel completely disconnected from them? Isn't it possible to be at a flea market ferreting out great treasures and feel the person with the same interest is judgemental of your tastes, cold to you - and in essence feel more isolated and alone in that crowd of people with her than you ever felt going to the flea market alone?
Common interests can be a tool to create an environment to experience companionship and build rapport in,- but it is not a strong/reliable FOUNDATION for building a LTR with genuine intimacy as it's goal. (Also consider interests change over time).
The Use of Intellect as Foundation
We've all met the person: well educated, well read, possessing a mind like a sponge. How exciting to be with someone who stimulates your mind! Challenges you to explore new concepts and bases of knowledge about interesting things! And how positively magical if their field of study and education matches yours! The heavens open and the birds sing! LOL
Or do they? Just as often a sharp intellect can be accompanied by arrogance, ego, a lack of tolerence, a spirit of competition and results in a distance from the person, rather than a bond.
So the similarity/appreciation of i.q. range and educational background can be a commonality that can foster interactions to move towards intimacy, but it is not intimacy in and of itself.
The Use of Emotional/Mental Expression as Foundation
"He is able to cry in front of me" "I speak my mind and tell it like I see it" "I'm a straight shooter" "If I'm pissed, I make sure people know" "I wear my heart on my sleeve".
It can be refreshing to be with someone who is in touch with how life emotionally moves them. There is little depth of intimacy offered by the emotionally detached person.
However, too often people mistake the open expression of emotion with emotional intimacy. The person who is willing to share a thought or feeling, but lacks insight into the source, and lacks the the ability to deal with it maturely can sabatoge the success of a relationship. The person who is a walking emotional reaction to every interaction requires audience and witness to his/her emotional experience and drains others of their resources.
Emotional/verbal expression (ability to emote) is not in and of itself foundation.
The Use of Physical Requirements/Manifestations as Foundation
This is not sexual interaction (addressed below); this is about appearances. This is when you meet a person who "looks" like what your image of the perfect person is for you. Her breasts are your favorite size, her hair is so long and sexy, she is your proverbial HB10. AND for women: he meets your height requirement and dresses in a style that speaks to you - you believe his taste in jewelry, cologne, shoes are all strong indicators of his inherent value. It is the image of the person that matches the "picture" of what you think your "perfect" partner will look like. Your ideal image.
It can include the woman who only wears dresses, the right lingerie - the man who drives the certain car, holds the certain job. It is possession/image/role focused.
When you meet/see a person that fits that ideal of physical/material requirements you may think: This could be The One!
Where's the flaw in thinking this is a valid foundation for LTR genuine intimacy? God forbid, two years later she is in a car wreck and brutally burned. Where is the bedrock for intimacy when the outer trappings are lost?
He is so tall, drives a (whatever), and has an "impressive" job. Well, as a woman you just committed your LTR and intimacy needs and gifts on the belief of the physical as foundation... THEN, God forbid, he just got in a car wreck. Guess what? He will be in a wheel chair for the rest of his life - he's not taller than you anymore is he? (No disrespect intended here) or that job you identified him with as being his primary value - gone. The entire industry has become obsolete.
That physical image - that role that we may identify as being critical to identifying a person capable and worthy of intimacy is not solid material (pun intended) for building a foundation for a dynamic, intimate LTR. It only represents the "what" we love - but there is no "who".
The Use of Similar Lifestyle Values as Foundation
You both love living in the heart of the city. You both drink green tea. You both think filet mignon cooked just so is food of the Gods. Isn't it great when we connect with someone who shares our same lifestyle values? Isn't common lifestyle values what everyone says is the foundation for a successful relationship?
Then why do so many relationships with this as their foundation unravel? Well, five years into the relationship her business sent her to a remote resort in the mountains for 2 weeks and it changed her forever - she realizes that the city no longer offers her the environment that resonates with her inner self. He went deep sea fishing with 'the boys', realizes he wants to live by the ocean away from the energy of the city. What if one of them becomes a vegetarian 5 years into their "filet mignon lovin' lifestyle"? LOL
If the foundational belief is that these shared lifestyle values provide the core support for the relationship - there will be trouble in paradise.
The Use of Sexual Activity/intercourse Limited to "Animal" Attraction as Foundation (Not sexual attraction based on the knowledge of eachother that comes through genuine intimacy, but instant animal attraction void of genuine knowledge of the "other", if you will)
One look, one smell of the other person, and who wants to talk? Where's the bedroom - uh - oh - hey - forget the bedroom - let's do "it" right here - right now!... and later... Wow, that was fabulous f****** this MUST be LOVE!!!
But does a sexual high produce a healthy foundation for genuine intimacy? When sexing on a level void of authentic interpersonal connection the human body produces mass amounts of epinephrine - which makes one feel nervous, restless, agitated and excited. Many people identify this bioligical response as`"being in love".
So, where's the weakness in having this as the foundation? Epinephrine suppresses the immune system, results in depression, irritabilty, headaches, chronic depression and fatigue. It is not healthy.
Compare this to the chemical/bioligical reaction when sexual arousal and activity/intercourse is experienced with a person who we share a mindful,loving, personal connection with. Oxytocin is produced in much larger volumes than in the previous scenerio. It results in feelings of trust, empathy, closeness, intimate connection. It reduces fear and anxiety.
While arguably comparatively small amounts of oxytocin are present with "casual/animal" encounters, the damaging effects of the (presumably) less desirable effects of epinephrine would make the sexual encounter based solely on "animal" attraction a weak foundation to build a rewarding genuinely intimate relationship on.
********
In summation, common interests, intellect, emotional/mental freedom of expression, physical manifestions of the ideal, similar lifestyle values, and sexual "animal attraction" can serve as wonderful BUILDING BLOCKS in developing intimacy with a partner - but do not serve the intimate relationship well when used as a source for THE FOUNDATION.
*********
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LovelyLady
Senior Don Juan
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A Solid Foundation for The Genuinely Intimate Relationship
What keeps people together in lasting, rewarding, dynamic relationships if it is not the Building Blocks of intimacy mentioned above?
I believe it is a spoken, defined and agreed upon commitment to the common purpose of cocreating the most fabulous relationship you two as a couple are capable of creating. It is a relationship that by it's very nature is not bound by the building blocks mentioned above; it transcends the material manifestations of life.
When the stated purpose of the relationship is to cocreate the most magnificent relationship the two people can create, there is an openess to the freedom of flexibilty and change of definition in how the Building Blocks are to be used.
This creates the space for opportunity for the relationship to thrive as a growing entity in and of itself. The relationship becomes an environment where each partner is able to pursue - and support the other - in the quest to become their best individual self.
CREATING INTIMACY implies that this requires both people to actively engage in the process of maintaining the viabiity of the relationship.
The freedom to bring your creativity and passion to eachother - to the relationship - is a spiritual element of the relationship. To spiritually bond: by committing to completely knowing one's self. To open one's self to be changed, transformed, moved by the sharing of self with the other. The knowing of and receiving of the other. The creation of the couple as two and as one.
This bond, based on the stated common purpose, provides a foundation of trust and safety. This is necessary when the couple meets with conflict in dealing with the areas of relating symbolized`by the "use" and manifestations of the Building Blocks.
It gives each person a place/foundation to return to and unite with the goal of a "we win" (rather than a "win-lose" dynamic). This common purpose results in a bond rather than a seperation at times of crisis, as it frees both people to safely function from a place of love. This is because there is a foundational agreement of commitment to honoring, respecting, supporting the self and the other.
This spiritual foundation provides the development and relating process that allows the couple to enjoy the freedom found in the being of a truly loving relationship.
As layer after layer of sharing and discovery takes place, there is a still, quiet, solid connection established between the two people - free of misuse of the building blocks of relating:
***********
In summation: A sound foundation for the intimate relationship is based on the agreement to cocreate the best relationship the two parties are capable of creating. The basic commitment to the individual life development of self by both partners, results in a relatonship free of damaging ajenda, restrictions, false ego, masks.
It creates a spiritual bond resulting in immense freedom and "incredible lightness of being" that is experienced when there is genuine intimacy.
***********
Note a great read and resource used: If The Buddha Dated. And "the incredible lightness of being" is from Atlas Shrugged. It is used to describe the feeling that is representative of the human spirit when it is free to be function (live if you will) in the right and just state. It also represents the state of joy experienced when one achieves the creation of one's greatest accomplishment.
What keeps people together in lasting, rewarding, dynamic relationships if it is not the Building Blocks of intimacy mentioned above?
I believe it is a spoken, defined and agreed upon commitment to the common purpose of cocreating the most fabulous relationship you two as a couple are capable of creating. It is a relationship that by it's very nature is not bound by the building blocks mentioned above; it transcends the material manifestations of life.
When the stated purpose of the relationship is to cocreate the most magnificent relationship the two people can create, there is an openess to the freedom of flexibilty and change of definition in how the Building Blocks are to be used.
This creates the space for opportunity for the relationship to thrive as a growing entity in and of itself. The relationship becomes an environment where each partner is able to pursue - and support the other - in the quest to become their best individual self.
CREATING INTIMACY implies that this requires both people to actively engage in the process of maintaining the viabiity of the relationship.
The freedom to bring your creativity and passion to eachother - to the relationship - is a spiritual element of the relationship. To spiritually bond: by committing to completely knowing one's self. To open one's self to be changed, transformed, moved by the sharing of self with the other. The knowing of and receiving of the other. The creation of the couple as two and as one.
This bond, based on the stated common purpose, provides a foundation of trust and safety. This is necessary when the couple meets with conflict in dealing with the areas of relating symbolized`by the "use" and manifestations of the Building Blocks.
It gives each person a place/foundation to return to and unite with the goal of a "we win" (rather than a "win-lose" dynamic). This common purpose results in a bond rather than a seperation at times of crisis, as it frees both people to safely function from a place of love. This is because there is a foundational agreement of commitment to honoring, respecting, supporting the self and the other.
This spiritual foundation provides the development and relating process that allows the couple to enjoy the freedom found in the being of a truly loving relationship.
As layer after layer of sharing and discovery takes place, there is a still, quiet, solid connection established between the two people - free of misuse of the building blocks of relating:
- common interests are not necessary - but the honoring of the partner's interests is. This allows for change.
- intellect will no longer seperate the two, but becomes tempered with appreciation and wisdom. Respect of differences of opinion takes precedence. It allows each party to develop to their fullest capacity in their individual journeys - but not out of obligation to perform/impress/entertain the other.
- emotional/mental freedom of expression is tempered with responsibilty to deal honestly with one's own emotional development. Emotional sharing is received with tenderness - and is shared with an honest desire to communicate feelings. By the nature of the stated purpose of the relationship - it becomes manipulation, ego and agenda free.
- physical requirements/manifestions of the ideal become a moot point as we love the "who" of a person rather than the "what".
- similar lifestyle valuesare approached with greater room for negotiation as each person's integrity allows them to honestly give when they can - and to trust that when a partner says they truly cannot compromise - a boundery that is expressed comes from a place of integrity and not as a withholding powerplay.
- sexual relations based solely on "animal attraction" and the negative ramifications of the bioligical response is replaced with a lifetime supply of oxytocin - now who can argue with that? LOL
***********
In summation: A sound foundation for the intimate relationship is based on the agreement to cocreate the best relationship the two parties are capable of creating. The basic commitment to the individual life development of self by both partners, results in a relatonship free of damaging ajenda, restrictions, false ego, masks.
It creates a spiritual bond resulting in immense freedom and "incredible lightness of being" that is experienced when there is genuine intimacy.
***********
Note a great read and resource used: If The Buddha Dated. And "the incredible lightness of being" is from Atlas Shrugged. It is used to describe the feeling that is representative of the human spirit when it is free to be function (live if you will) in the right and just state. It also represents the state of joy experienced when one achieves the creation of one's greatest accomplishment.
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Interceptor
Master Don Juan
One of the basic requirements that I've always felt there had to be is the desire to grow.
If you can accept your partner's growth, and one of your personal values is to grow, then I believe that both have a very strong platform to 'change with change'.
Bruce Lee has a quote I like:
"To change with change is the changeless state."
If one is resigned to being a static, crystallized form, then it is a matter of time until you meet conflict. But if you accept change, and in essence, growth, then you will always feel 'secure' in the unknown, since it is your core value to experience new things, and accept that your partner has the right to do so too.
No one wants to feel 'boxed in'.
And everyone wants acceptance as their true self.
If both partners have a desire to learn from each other, I believe it is setting the stage for something ver healthy and productive, rewarding and fulfilling.
If one can feel supported in their experience and growth, and reciprocates this 'allowing', I think the relationship can provide a much hospitable, and inviting circumstance. One of freedom, purpose, support, growth, and 'relaxation'.
As many people want a place where they can finally Relax in, not just in the common physical sense of lying down on a sofa.
In that they can find safety, refuge, and not have to put on a persona. Basically, BE Themselves.
I think it is also healthy to accept that Interests may change. And as we mature and grow, so hopefully too will our Values evolve to a more higher perspective as well. I believe our Values are our core beliefs that we hold on under pressure and difficulties. If they are not followed with strong integrity, the person will not find happiness, their Personal Boundary will be too weak,and people do not trust those who lack integrity.
Bascially , I feel that when one's Value is to be humble, let yourself learn and grow, and accept your partner's right to do that too, you will find the other building blocks fall into place.
Here's to the enlightenment of the forum, and hope they use this information to truly define their relationships,and find some fulfillment and satisfaction from them.
If you can accept your partner's growth, and one of your personal values is to grow, then I believe that both have a very strong platform to 'change with change'.
Bruce Lee has a quote I like:
"To change with change is the changeless state."
If one is resigned to being a static, crystallized form, then it is a matter of time until you meet conflict. But if you accept change, and in essence, growth, then you will always feel 'secure' in the unknown, since it is your core value to experience new things, and accept that your partner has the right to do so too.
No one wants to feel 'boxed in'.
And everyone wants acceptance as their true self.
If both partners have a desire to learn from each other, I believe it is setting the stage for something ver healthy and productive, rewarding and fulfilling.
If one can feel supported in their experience and growth, and reciprocates this 'allowing', I think the relationship can provide a much hospitable, and inviting circumstance. One of freedom, purpose, support, growth, and 'relaxation'.
As many people want a place where they can finally Relax in, not just in the common physical sense of lying down on a sofa.
In that they can find safety, refuge, and not have to put on a persona. Basically, BE Themselves.
I think it is also healthy to accept that Interests may change. And as we mature and grow, so hopefully too will our Values evolve to a more higher perspective as well. I believe our Values are our core beliefs that we hold on under pressure and difficulties. If they are not followed with strong integrity, the person will not find happiness, their Personal Boundary will be too weak,and people do not trust those who lack integrity.
Bascially , I feel that when one's Value is to be humble, let yourself learn and grow, and accept your partner's right to do that too, you will find the other building blocks fall into place.
Here's to the enlightenment of the forum, and hope they use this information to truly define their relationships,and find some fulfillment and satisfaction from them.
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Wow, all this stuff really hits home for me. This is the wisdom of a truly mature individual who understands the nature of a successful relationship. Thanks for your insight LovelyLady, VU, and Interceptor.
I just wish that more people can come to appreciate this kind of knowledge. It's really gold. So all you LURKERS out there, pay ATTENTION, these guys/girls know what they are talking about!!
I just wish that more people can come to appreciate this kind of knowledge. It's really gold. So all you LURKERS out there, pay ATTENTION, these guys/girls know what they are talking about!!
dannyegg4575
Senior Don Juan
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Leave it to a woman to bring us harmony from chaos like spring to a winter’s day.
I do believe it is within each and everyone of our heart that is the goal we strive for. To find that special someone we can honestly trust and love “til death do us part”. It is common in this site for people to believe that love does not exist among men and women. They only exist among parents to their children. To find that someone who you so describe Lovely Lady, is like finding a needle in a haystack.
And even if you do find that someone, you have to wait patiently to lead them into the ideal goal of a fully mature romantic relationship, without the temptations and outside influences. And you try to do this without trying to change them and accepting them for who they are. People don’t change. They only change if they want to change. How do you come across as trying to have a fully healthy relationship without trying to be overly controlling or a complete bore to the woman you want to build this intimacy with?
I do believe it is within each and everyone of our heart that is the goal we strive for. To find that special someone we can honestly trust and love “til death do us part”. It is common in this site for people to believe that love does not exist among men and women. They only exist among parents to their children. To find that someone who you so describe Lovely Lady, is like finding a needle in a haystack.
And even if you do find that someone, you have to wait patiently to lead them into the ideal goal of a fully mature romantic relationship, without the temptations and outside influences. And you try to do this without trying to change them and accepting them for who they are. People don’t change. They only change if they want to change. How do you come across as trying to have a fully healthy relationship without trying to be overly controlling or a complete bore to the woman you want to build this intimacy with?
LovelyLady
Senior Don Juan
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:flowers: Thank you, Danny.dannyegg4575 said:
Yes, but the "magic" in finding that one person is such a small piece of the richness of the overall life journey, I think.dannyegg4575 said:
To BE that person that provides this kind of space and freedom in all your relationships with the people that cross your path opens up vast opportunities to have various levels of intimate exchange with people in the endless interactions in your life.
When you approach your life from a place of self responsibility/realization (integrity as Interceptor hones in on) and genuine respect for other people's inherent right and responsibilty to pursue their own individual journeys as well, people who are ready to experience that energy - and offer that to you- are drawn to you.
Communication is key - but aso recognizing that sometimes we are there to teach and sometimes we are there to learn. The vibrant relatonship that sustains the test of time is one in which the agreement is to continue to grow and allow groeth. STagnation is not an option. The expectation s change and growth (Again as Intereceptor shares -hey! let's just go read his stuff againdannyegg4575 said:
LOL)LovelyLady
Senior Don Juan
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Your entire post is amazing, Victory. I foucus in on ^^^^ adnd Interceptors sharing below as they both bring this quote from Socrates to mind: Beware the barrenness of a busy lifeVictory Unlimited said:
Interceptor said:
dannyegg4575
Senior Don Juan
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I think Tyler from Blueprint says it best when he said that a lot of people walk around in a walking daze. We needed that little bit of self esteem given by someone else. The example he gave was of a pair of shoes offered for a temporary fix. Once that fix is gone, another one must be sought like an addict to cocaine.
True intimacy? How do you attain it? If it is not for that pinch of "self esteem", how did the relationship start to begin with? If both people are unwilling to learn and grow together, there is little that can be done to have a fulfilling relationship.
If you can go to ball game and scream your asses off together for the same team, you have true intimacy. If you are sick in your death bed and the woman never once leave your side, you have true intimacy. If you can walk a path of one, you have true intimacy. When two become one, that my friends is true intimacy. I will quote Jet Li when interviewed about him and his wife, "When you are one, you will no longer hurt each other. Because nobody would hurt himself."
True intimacy? How do you attain it? If it is not for that pinch of "self esteem", how did the relationship start to begin with? If both people are unwilling to learn and grow together, there is little that can be done to have a fulfilling relationship.
If you can go to ball game and scream your asses off together for the same team, you have true intimacy. If you are sick in your death bed and the woman never once leave your side, you have true intimacy. If you can walk a path of one, you have true intimacy. When two become one, that my friends is true intimacy. I will quote Jet Li when interviewed about him and his wife, "When you are one, you will no longer hurt each other. Because nobody would hurt himself."
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