The Closing Window of Opportunity.

[Jay Jay]

It is a firmly accepted principal in these circles that when gaming a chick you have a closing window of opportunity with her.

Basically if you don't move things along in enough time she'll lose interest.

There is a new post every week from some dude who says "she was keen but then lost interest," or some variation. Inevitably some smart DJs points out the obvious "you didn't get sexual quick enough!"

So it is clear that you do have to get sexual pretty fast!

BUT then you have the awesome posts by Anti-Dump who says you should play it cool, to make her wait for sex to prove you’re in control, different and to make her hang for it.

So we have a bit of a contradiction here.

There are two important variables which reconcile this apparent paradox.

Firstly: The expression of sexuality.

In the absence of escalation the window of opportunity closes much slower when there is an expression of sexuality.

Secondly: The realistic opportunity to escalate.

If there is no chance to escalate then the window will close far more slowly (provided you don’t **** up in other ways).

So when Anti-Dump says to take your time you need to convey sexual interest and you need to limit the opportunity to escalate sexually.

You can’t have a girl sitting on your bed all night and only talk about Desperate Housewives without that window slamming shut!

But you can string a girl along for months if you convey sexuality and limit your chance to get naked with her.

Just be aware that the window is closing! It doesn’t matter if you ooze machismo and can’t bust a move coz you need to save orphans in Botswana, you need to escalate to stop that window closing!

Now for an anecdote.

Several years ago (when I was AFC) a beautiful girl spent the night at my house.

In the morning, whilst she was in the shower, my best mate (who was at the time both my housemate and a mack daddy) tried to give me a high five. “I didn’t f*ck her.” I told him.

“Oh, did she pull some dumb “I don’t want you to think I’m a slut” sh*t?”

“No, I just didn’t feel it appropriate. I didn’t want to take advantage of the hospitality I offered.”

One of his f*ck buddies was present, “she wouldn’t have put herself in that position if she didn’t want you to take advantage.”

“Really?”

“You f*cking idiot!” My best mate said. “You know my rule! No b*tch sleeps in my bed without putting out!”

F*ck buddy then told me about the closing window of opportunity. “If you want this girl you are going to have to do SOMETHING before she goes or she will write you off as a pansy!”

“What should I do!?”

“Kiss her neck!” My best friend said. It was good advice. It was an escalation.

So as she was leaving I kissed her neck. She stopped being formal and gave me a searching gaze.

I slept with her five days later.

In a nutshell, you MUST move things along at the appropriate time. You MUST escalate, even if it is just a kiss on the neck.

This post was put in forum because I want to hear some other ideas on this. I reckon some dudes might be able to give a more precise indication of how long that window stays open and how to effectively keeping it from slamming shut.

I think I’ve read somewhere the MM goes into this a bit. Anyone read that? Anything to add?

Anyone?

JJ

 

[Interceptor]

First off, great post. And excellent first hand example you provided. Thanks.
A not too common point in DJing.
It's true, all movement must go forward sexually. It isn't always subtle, and it isn't always obvious.
Different women, mean different timings.
Different environments means varying opportunities.

And also, what if the girl is scared?
Just got out of a relationship?
Sexually inexperienced?
Introverted, and shy?
Things like that.
There are several factors involved, as always.

But playing it cool is solid advice.
Remember one thing when you're nervous but horny.

"Touch and Go"

Start something sensual, then stop. Keep talking and interacting.
Start something then stop.
You express sexual interest, and Self Control.

 

[lebRambo]

Basically if you don't move things along in enough time she'll lose interest.

There is a new post every week from some dude who says "she was keen but then lost interest," or some variation. Inevitably some smart DJs points out the obvious "you didn't get sexual quick enough!"

Haha, my ears are bleeding, Jay

and daniel's too, I would say.

But great post, and absolutely spot on.

 

[Jay Jay]

Haha, my ears are bleeding, Jay

and daniel's too, I would say.

But great post, and absolutely spot on.

LOL, that wasn't directed at you guys.

It really is an almost daily tale of woe so I thought maybe we should get some discussion happening.

JJ

 

[Last Man Standing]

Only if you are talking about hors does the "sexual" angle take place - otherwise women seek a compatible masculine complementary nature!!!

 

[danielzxc]

But you can string a girl along for months if you convey sexuality and limit your chance to get naked with her.

Maybe, but if you do this for too long, you can also get yourself written off as "all talk".

It's too hard to say how long it stays open, becauase girls are all different. Also depends on the context in wihch you were with her. If it was a date, like having a drink together, and you bring up sexual topics, and you get her talking about sex (ie she's getting turned on), and then you just... drive her home...well, that's not really good. If she is the sexually experienced type, she will probably write you off as all talk, no action. If she is less experienced, maybe not many guys have talked to her like that, so she would probably stay intrigued for longer.

On the other hand, if it's some chick at work that you just flirt with, and there's some unpsoken "sexual tension" between you, you could keep this going for quite some time. Precisely how long, I can't really say. (Weeks, for sure. Months? I suppose it's possible.)

I think the principle is that if you escalate things (even just verbally, not necessarily physically) to the point where SOME kind of action is the only next logical step, and then you FAIL to take that next step, it is not good for you. How bad it is will, as I said, depend on the specific girl. (Also, it would likely depend on how high value you are seen as.)

If all you did was express interest in her a romantic/sexual way, such that she knows you're not just hanging out as friends, that's not a really "big thing". But if you had her talking about positions and guys she's been with and what she's done, that's a much bigger step, and you are getting very close to the point where if you don't do anything physical pretty soon (like that very night, if logistics permit), it will be bad for you.

 

[Jay Jay]

Maybe, but if you do this for too long, you can also get yourself written off as "all talk".

It's too hard to say how long it stays open, becauase girls are all different. Also depends on the context in wihch you were with her. If it was a date, like having a drink together, and you bring up sexual topics, and you get her talking about sex (ie she's getting turned on), and then you just... drive her home...well, that's not really good. If she is the sexually experienced type, she will probably write you off as all talk, no action. If she is less experienced, maybe not many guys have talked to her like that, so she would probably stay intrigued for longer.

On the other hand, if it's some chick at work that you just flirt with, and there's some unpsoken "sexual tension" between you, you could keep this going for quite some time. Precisely how long, I can't really say. (Weeks, for sure. Months? I suppose it's possible.)

I think the principle is that if you escalate things (even just verbally, not necessarily physically) to the point where SOME kind of action is the only next logical step, and then you FAIL to take that next step, it is not good for you. How bad it is will, as I said, depend on the specific girl. (Also, it would likely depend on how high value you are seen as.)

If all you did was express interest in her a romantic/sexual way, such that she knows you're not just hanging out as friends, that's not a really "big thing". But if you had her talking about positions and guys she's been with and what she's done, that's a much bigger step, and you are getting very close to the point where if you don't do anything physical pretty soon (like that very night, if logistics permit), it will be bad for you.

We are on the same page. You just said what I was getting at in a different way.

The conveying sexuality NEEDS to be in a situation of limited opportunity. You use the example of a work mate. This is exactly what I'm talking about. There is no OPPORTUNITY but the sexual energy exists. The moment you get her out on a date however the window starts sliding shut. On a date, there IS the opportunity thus escalation is necessary!

JJ

 

[Serialized3]

So when Anti-Dump says to take your time you need to convey sexual interest and you need to limit the opportunity to escalate sexually.

You can’t have a girl sitting on your bed all night and only talk about Desperate Housewives without that window slamming shut!

But you can string a girl along for months if you convey sexuality and limit your chance to get naked with her.

Another excellent post by JJ!

I believe it's necessary to express your sexuality right off the bat with any woman you would ever want to sleep with. Even if you choose to just be her friend, you need to be sexual and attractive if you ever want the option of sleeping with her.

Not expressing sexuality = THE MAIN PATH to the LJBFriendzone

 

[lookyoung]

Great post Jay Jay. There is a window of opportunity that you must take advantage of. I think the best way to keep it open is to be aggressive. There are about 5 girls that I could think of that I almost fvcked, but didn't. The reason is I was probably less aggressive than I should have been. I had these chicks naked and did not bang them.

Next thing you know for whatever reason.... Arguments, she went back to BF etc..... I never seen these girls again.

THE MORAL OF STORY IS BE AGGRESSIVE. AND DISPLAY YOUR SEXUALITY. YOU MUST BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE THE PRIZE AND ITS THE GIRLS DREAM TO BANG YOU

 

[DJVladdy]

THE MORAL OF STORY IS BE AGGRESSIVE. AND DISPLAY YOUR SEXUALITY. YOU MUST BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE THE PRIZE AND ITS THE GIRLS DREAM TO BANG YOU

For some reason I cannot pull this off. I dont know how you guys can. And no im not some 90 lb geek. I am still having trouble CONNECTING and VIBING with women on a desired level.

 

[malph]

For some reason I cannot pull this off. I dont know how you guys can. And no im not some 90 lb geek. I am still having trouble CONNECTING and VIBING with women on a desired level.

I'm in the same boat as you. I've been hovering around these boards for a while, just joined though. I have always had the exact same problem, and I'm now in my mid-20s!

I am getting better at displaying sexuality, but it's not a switch you can just flick on after reading a few pieces of advice. Sometimes I don't go far enough - and the woman never thinks of f***ing me. Sometimes I go too far, and she gets offended and I look like a complete creep. When I do succeed, I find that it's a lot like sex itself: my success is based almost entirely on how well I read her responses. As Alfred Hitchcock said, the terror is in the anticipation of the bang, not in the bang itself. Women are more turned on by suggestion than by having you whip out your proverbial d*** on her forehead.

But that said, I reckon that you should push further than your instincts might tell you - better not to die wondering. And JJ is completely right, whatever you do, do it fast. This is an awesome post - that scenario reads straight from my own life, but with a much weaker ending: I wish I had your friend there to kick my a**! I wish I joined a while ago.

 

[malph]

For some reason I cannot pull this off. I dont know how you guys can. And no im not some 90 lb geek. I am still having trouble CONNECTING and VIBING with women on a desired level.

I'm in the same boat as you. I've been hovering around these boards for a while, just joined though. I have always had the exact same problem, and I'm now in my mid-20s!

I am getting better at displaying sexuality, but it's not a switch you can just flick on after reading a few pieces of advice. Sometimes I don't go far enough - and the woman never thinks of f***ing me. Sometimes I go too far, and she gets offended and I look like a complete creep. When I do succeed, I find that it's a lot like sex itself: my success is based almost entirely on how well I read her responses. As Alfred Hitchcock said, the terror is in the anticipation of the bang, not in the bang itself. Women are more turned on by suggestion than by having you whip out your proverbial d*** on her forehead.

But that said, I reckon that you should push further than your instincts might tell you - better not to die wondering. And JJ is completely right, whatever you do, do it fast. This is an awesome post - that scenario reads straight from my own life, but with a much weaker ending: I wish I had your friend there to kick my a**! I wish I joined a while ago.

 

[green69]

I agree 100% with the premise of the topic.

Another minor thing to add, which mainly has to do with chicks at work. If you don't ask for their number right away - that's not necessarily a bad thing. What's WORSE however is getting their number, then hanging out and not makin a move. As mentioned in the theory, if you're hanging out with these chicks and nothing is happening the window is closing fast! But at least with a girl you're seeing at work ONLY, as long as you keep up the flirting and all that the window will close 10x slower compared to if you're 'hanging out' with them on the side. The irony being that actually not getting to know her outside of work can sometimes be more beneficial than actually having the balls to get her number, hang out with her etc.

This thread has been enlightening. Now I can almost pick any girl I know and objectively analyze whether I am in the friends zone or not. I can almost pinpoint certain instances and situations now where I say "Yup, when I didn't kiss her there she put me in the friends zone." Although slightly depressing, it can be used to benefit future situations. If I'm in a scenario where I have a good opportunity to make a move i'm gonna say to myself "I better take advantage of this otherwise I'm gonna be tossed in the friends bin." While it's important not to rush things in an effort to get passed the closing window, it's crucial to make it happen when the right opportunity arises.

I also like about what you said how it doesn't matter how good looking you are etc. You'd be surprised how girls you're in the friends zone with will turn you down for guys which are much less attractive (and to be honest don't necessarily have a ton of game either, but they went for it and you didn't). While being good looking will probably prolong the process of window shutting, once it's shut it doesn't matter if you look like Tom cruise - it's over.

 

[Phyzzle]

So it is clear that you do have to get sexual pretty fast!

BUT then you have the awesome posts by Anti-Dump who says you should play it cool, to make her wait for sex to prove you’re in control, different and to make her hang for it.

So we have a bit of a contradiction here.

There was some tip from the DJ bible that said,

"Always make it obvious that you are attracted to her, but never let her know how much you really like her."

My way is to escalate every time I see her - as slowly as possible.

Girls generally initiate most things with me. I don't kiss her until she's so impatient that she just stands a foot away from me and waits. So I'm not really initiating.

It's a tough balancing act. 3 meetings without escalation, and you're a friend. But one ill-timed grope, and you're outta there.

 

[reset]

Bump, this is a good thread.

My addition to the topic is to pay attention to the signals you are getting from the girl, and NOT listen to other people. All people are different and there is no one size fits all solution to this. Otherwise life would be really, really boring I suppose.

For instance, with one girl at work, she was showing all the interest. This girl was extremely nervous and shy around me. She began inviting me to group lunches, did all that hanging around me stuff, calling me for no reason, etc. Through her actions I could tell she was very nervous about appearing to be interested in a co-worker, she was new and didn't want to do something stupid. She would say stuff like "oh well ok I'll sit next to reset don't really get to talk to the people in that department so yeah I'll just sit next to him and blah blah", really nervous.

Shy, introverted "good girl", my only goal was to get this girl to be more relaxed around me. Wasn't sure how into her I was, but I WAS attracted. Let's go slow here, right? No rush, we work together, and I'm still trying to see if there's a personality under all that nervousness.

BUT I was still learning. And I listened to my friend, when I shouldn't have. And what did he say? "Dude you better **** that chick now! THERE IS A CLOSING WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY!! This chick wants to **** and you better do it NOW or she'll put you in the FRIEND-ZONE!!! HURRY UP BEFORE SOME OTHER GUY GETS HER!!!!"

So, even though I was playing it calm and casual, I went against my own best-interest, and I jumped the shark. I asked her out WAY too early, but I set it up like "hey I'll be at this bar after work, stop by if you get a chance". She seemed like she was going, but she didn't show. She was probably scared. I was away from work for about a week, so I didn't see her until I got back. She didn't say anything but on that first day she came to my office at least seven times. And I was mad, I ignored her, I was mean to her, and after a couple days when she came up and said "hey we should all get together and go to that place we talked about" I snapped at her.

I handled it very poorly. Moved in way too soon, stopped being a challenge, and operated from a scarcity mindset, all because of this ominious "window of opportunity" crap.

So what could have been something fun at work has turned into drama, now she acts up around me, I ignore her, then she starts being nice and tries to get me interested, the more I ignore her the more I turn her on.... she's insecure. I kind of dodged a bullet.

But this all happened because I wasn't sure of my game, I listened to someone else instead of following my GUT.

Don't let the "window of opportunity" make you show your cards too soon. They aren't going to stop making women. Go at your own pace and do what seems right to YOU. I wasn't even sure if I wanted to date this girl (not looking for a quick lay with a co-worker, no thanks) but I thought "gee that window of opportunity. A girl likes me so I better go overboard and kill all the sexual tension that's just STARTED building."

Anyway, you learn.

 

[Interceptor]

It's a tough line to walk.
First because if we're too interested, we lose the objectivity, and we may need some helpful outside perspective.
But at the same time, no one knows but you what you really feel inside, and your "vibes" about the girl you're seeing.
Meaning, if you listen to "gut", you at least can win and be happy you followed the Gut, or be wrong, but you can blame no one, and can have no regret or resentment towards another.

Pook said somethign to the effect that every failure or rejection is really another Opportunity.

Lesson Learned: "Mr. Gut can be trusted more and more and more often when you let Mr. Happy come out to play with more and more and more women."
The more you interact with women, the sharper your Gut becomes. You'll never need to ask for advice.

 

[reset]

I agree with you. And I like the reframing of the rejection as an opportunity.

With this girl, sure at first I felt crappy but I was determined to learn from the situation. I didn't know what I was doing and through a little pain I was able to learn so much more about myself and grow. And that's what this stuff is about, it's not about getting chicks. It's about learning to be the best man you can be, chicks are the natural consequence of that.

It's good to get advice... and you're right. The more you interact with women, the more YOU understand what's going on. And the less you're likely to ask for advice.

Which is kind of where I am now. I know what to do, I'm just learning to make it a part of me, without the second guessing.

Bottom line is, do what YOU want to do.