the biggest brainwashers of men

[joekerr31]

something for discussion...

an interesting topic when I think about it is what exactly indoctrinates men the most into the world of the AFC / Matrix?

i don't know if we can really blame the media as the #1 culprit. because the media shows just as many non AFC examples as AFC. i mean, take the jerry seinfield show for instance - the main character, Jerry, was a single 30 something man who wasn't chasing after marriage. take archie bunker... he was a sexist pig. you got rock stars that bang 1000s of women. etc.

the examples are endless. yes, these are offset by movies like Pretty Woman, but all in all, there are just as many non-AFC males in the media as there are AFC males.

is it the school system? i don't think so. i don't remember being indoctrinated one way or another in school when it came to relationships.

is it (classical) literature? i highly doubt it, as writers tend to be the most cynical when describing relationships over any other medium.

was it the church? they certainly played a role for sure. but now a days even regularly church goers temper the church doctrine with the practical truths we recognize today.

which leads me to perhaps the primary culprit. our mothers.

not to get freudian on everyone, but when you think about it, most of us grew up in households where mom relied on dad. i believe this, and the behavior we witnesses long before we even knew what it was, primes the male to see women as the weaker sex.

moreover, because our mothers were often emotional, while our fathers were stern, we see women as 'the prize'. women = love.

yes, none of this makes sense, but its what we grow up with. its what plugs us in to the matrix. this unrealistic view of women.

then as we become teenagers and you add on the sexual urge to screw women, you have the perfect storm.

completely unrealistic behavior becomes acceptable because

1) we witnesses our mothers exhibiting this behavior
2) we put women on the pedastal becuase our mothers were likely our primary source of emotional reinforcement growing up (ie. the one who made us 'feel' loved)
3) we ignore bad behavior in the hopes of getting laid.

what do you guys think? while this is a pretty far out there hypothesis, i believe that the vast majority of men who have problems with women do so because of some element relating to their mother.

i know this sounds pretty crazy (and perhaps even deflecting from personal accountability), but when you really think about it, its not so far fetched.

men who do naturally well with women seem to come from mothers who, while not detached, were strong positive independent figures in the household. while they nurtured their sons, they didn't overly rely on them, they didn't smother them, etc.

while men who do poorly with women seem to come from mothers who were emotionally unstable, manipulative, pessimistic / depressed, etc.

 

[reset]

while this is a pretty far out there hypothesis, i believe that the vast majority of men who have problems with women do so because of some element relating to their mother.

i know this sounds pretty crazy (and perhaps even deflecting from personal accountability), but when you really think about it, its not so far fetched.

It's not far-out. In the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" the author talks about men (in this case "nice guy", afc I guess) being monogomous to their mother.

It's true for me but at least I know that it's an issue and I'm working on it. In my case it was the LACK of emotional warmth from my mother that I looked to get from the girls I was with. People like to re-create their childhoods in relationships and jobs. So, for me, the ideal girl is emotionally unavailable, has mood swings, is judgemental, and will abandon me. And I have recreated this experience with all of them, seeking out girls who could play that role very well. Coming to grips with something like this can be embarassing, but when you're young you can get stuck with attitudes that you'll have for the rest of your life if you don't do something about it. I AM doing something about it, and have done some inner-work regarding abandonment and stuff like that.

I know the hurdle it presented so at least I have enough presence to tackle it. So while my example is kind of the opposite of what you're talking about, it's very real and most guys have NO CLUE the impact their mothers have on their romantic and sex lives.

This is why bytches and "ice queens" turn me on, and not nurturing types.

Felt good to type that.

 

[KontrollerX]

Damn reset I could almost swear you and I are the same person lol.

My mother I realized was very much the same to your description.

I mean she's not totally awful and has been goofy and shown me a lot of love and support during my life but the times that she's failed me has been when she did exactly what you described and I think that happened far to often in my and your childhoods when we were young with our mothers.

Its really strange.

I always viewed my mother as the perfect mother and it is painful to realize that she was not.

 

[joekerr31]

I Coming to grips with something like this can be embarassing,

it shouldn't be! im telling you, the impact of mothers is probably the most understimated, understudied areas of human relations.

the reason i think this is, is because to really inspect it would be to tear apart hte fabric of society. to actually assess mothers in an objective light is just not something women or men are prepared to do. 'mothers' is the one role that we are never ever suppose to look at critical or critize.

recently i saw john mccain giving a speech and said none of it would have been possible if not for his mother. she was there, she was 95. he said 'thank you mamma.'

i mean, WTF.

john mccain is 71! his success has been due to probably a thousand different reasons, all of which probably have had a greater impact than his mother.

also recently i saw an episode of intervention. the show was on this guy, early 20s i think, who was a genius. iq of over 170. he was an addict, no job, spending time on the streets, sucking d*ck for change, etc.

his mother was a fat slob. first husband beat the kid. second husband beat the kid. mother was still with the second husband.

and you sit there and you look at this guy, whose life is in utter shambles, and its because of poor parenting.

give that kid and his iq to parents who knew what they were doing and he'd be making 200k a year as an engineer at NASA or something.

and while the men obviously played a role, this woman picked these men and then choose these men over her kid.

but thats not even the damaging part. the damaging part is that the only person who cares about this kid (now in his 20s) is his mother. so his only source of support is a woman who created the environment that lead to him being so messed up.

and when they interview the mom she takes no responsibility for it all. her attitude was 'ya, he didnt have the best upbringing. but who does?"

crazzzzy.

anyway, thats just one example.

it seems to me that its actually quite common for people's upbringings to consume them later in life.

how many guys are AFC or in bad marriages because they were raised to think that is normal.

and the key point i wanted to make was non of these women / mothers, admit to the damage they caused in their offspring. which just goes to show the degree to which women are delusion and cannot see anyone but themselves in the victim role (and hence lack empathy even for their own children).

 

[Interceptor]

I talk about this all the time.

men re create and re live their experiences, and if they did NOT have an EXCELLENT upbringing with a Positive Femenine Lady like Mother who was strong and ENCOURAGED her little boys to be Men, don't seem to have this good grasp on realistic expectiations and understading of the DYNAMICs involved.
Same thing goes with Fathers. If we did NOT have a really Positive Mentoring Father, who TAUGHT us how to be Men, then .there y ou go.a DOuble Whammy that knocks the sh*t out of a LOT of guys' confidence.

Thes Men if they are lucky, Find GUIDANCE and KNOWLEDGE.
They then GAIN WISDOM...

,....and with trmendous inner strength and COURAGE MENTOR themSELVES and NURTURE themselves.

We are to be our OWN BEST FRIEND.
and....we must learn to DEVELOP our INTERNAL 'ENERGIES" of Yin and Yang (Femenine and Masculine) and realzie that WE are responsibel for OUR SEL:VES.
We make ourselves WHOLE again.
We Balance our internal energy and find Harmony.

We overcome all this negative programming, toxic beliefs, SHAME and GUILT, and lack of experiences, and poor self esteem and FIGHT against the negative momentum and make ourselves MOVE FORWARD.



With ENOUGH Internal STRENGTH we BREAK FREE of the weight and MAKE our OWN Momentum.


WOmen are DRAWN to men who xhibut Masculinity.

Healthy women are drawn and STAY with Men who have prper balance of bth Yin and Yang Energies.
That one little piece of information is the Elixir to save an entire generation.
But it ALL comes form INSIDE US, not Externaly.
This is why it is so HARD.

And with an expereince of unconditional Love and Support from our Blood Relatives, we grow up EXPECTING the same from Complete STRANGERS, and think that this is how the world WORKS.

ANd even if their isa LACK of good positive expereinces, Men grow up feeling this EMptiness and VOID where ther eis supposed to be LOVE.

So they TOO become NEEDy and DESPERATE and SEEK VALIDATION, and have the IDEALIZATION Mindset.
And they LOOK at RELATIONSHIPS with women, mature sexual romantic relationships, as a PLACE where THEY GET these things.
Instead of developing the notion of APPRECIATION and GRATITUDE and Self RELIANCE.

 

[jophil28]

it shouldn't be! im telling you, the impact of mothers is probably the most understimated, understudied areas of human relations.

Exactly- when you realize- REALLY understand how imperfect our mothers were it is a huge shock.
There is a powerful force in our culture which deifies mothers and motherhood. WE regard mothers as saints- there is no acknowledgement that there is a such thing as BAD mothering or too much mothering .WE all buy into the myth that SHE was perfect.
And so we make a HUGE fuss on mother's day...

Consider this - when you realize that most of our mothers looked out for their OWN interests over their childs' needs. When you can truly see that your mother was a manipulator and a user of your father and an exploiter of his sweat. When you can really see past the shallow gestures that she made which looked like she loved you, but really did not love you in the way that you needed.

And finally you truly see that the hand that rocked the cradle was a very shaky one.
Then you are faced with this --
" If my mother was not a perfect mother and her mothering was defective, then what does that now make me?" - disturbing isn't it ?

 

[Master Bates]

Well I don't mean to help turn this into a thread version of one of Francis's mother rants from Malcolm in the Middle, but I've had a LOT of difficulty in life, and I can trace a lot of it back to how my mother raised me. I can't say my mom didn't have "good intentions" (and you know what they say about the road to hell), but she was a control freak who ran every aspect of my life and forced her own goals onto me, right up until highschool graduation, and it was hard to let go of that even after. She also at some point turned into an emotionally cold person, and it's something my sisters agree on, that she just isn't very "motherly". But more than that was how she ran every detail of my life, gave me no sense of independence at all, and whenever I look back to those days all I can see is her standing right over my shoulder. It really f*cked me up over the years, and helped turn me into a rather weak, unconfident, unassertive person. Which, as you can imagine, works out just dandy with the ladies.

Oh, and on the subject of fathers, it also didn't help that, while he too was (almost) always well meaning, he was piss-poor at being a father figure or male role model. He was different at his work I suppose, but at home he was often extremely supplicative and submissive with my mom and sisters, always giving in to them, thinking that that was actually being a good "head of the household". After a while I just came to see it as pathetic. And he had no real hobbies or interests of his own, aside from his work-related computer stuff, so any time he tried to "teach me" anything manly it just felt so contrived. The only thing he was really passionate about teaching me was crap like DOS commands. I always resented that, and looking back it kinda seems like I grew up from mid-late childhood without a real father.

ugh, parents.

 

[DavenJuan]

something for discussion...

an interesting topic when I think about it is what exactly indoctrinates men the most into the world of the AFC / Matrix?

i don't know if we can really blame the media as the #1 culprit. because the media shows just as many non AFC examples as AFC. i mean, take the jerry seinfield show for instance - the main character, Jerry, was a single 30 something man who wasn't chasing after marriage. take archie bunker... he was a sexist pig. you got rock stars that bang 1000s of women. etc.

the examples are endless. yes, these are offset by movies like Pretty Woman, but all in all, there are just as many non-AFC males in the media as there are AFC males.

is it the school system? i don't think so. i don't remember being indoctrinated one way or another in school when it came to relationships.

is it (classical) literature? i highly doubt it, as writers tend to be the most cynical when describing relationships over any other medium.

was it the church? they certainly played a role for sure. but now a days even regularly church goers temper the church doctrine with the practical truths we recognize today.

which leads me to perhaps the primary culprit. our mothers.

not to get freudian on everyone, but when you think about it, most of us grew up in households where mom relied on dad. i believe this, and the behavior we witnesses long before we even knew what it was, primes the male to see women as the weaker sex.

moreover, because our mothers were often emotional, while our fathers were stern, we see women as 'the prize'. women = love.

yes, none of this makes sense, but its what we grow up with. its what plugs us in to the matrix. this unrealistic view of women.

then as we become teenagers and you add on the sexual urge to screw women, you have the perfect storm.

completely unrealistic behavior becomes acceptable because

1) we witnesses our mothers exhibiting this behavior
2) we put women on the pedastal becuase our mothers were likely our primary source of emotional reinforcement growing up (ie. the one who made us 'feel' loved)
3) we ignore bad behavior in the hopes of getting laid.

what do you guys think? while this is a pretty far out there hypothesis, i believe that the vast majority of men who have problems with women do so because of some element relating to their mother.

i know this sounds pretty crazy (and perhaps even deflecting from personal accountability), but when you really think about it, its not so far fetched.

men who do naturally well with women seem to come from mothers who, while not detached, were strong positive independent figures in the household. while they nurtured their sons, they didn't overly rely on them, they didn't smother them, etc.

while men who do poorly with women seem to come from mothers who were emotionally unstable, manipulative, pessimistic / depressed, etc.

thought provoking..

you are right that there are many non AFC figures shown on television.. but ask yourself, most of the time its considered "out of the ordinary" when shown in this light.

i agree that there may be just as many Non AFC vs AFC to offest one another, however IMO the ones that show the AFC tendencies tend to be the accepted behavour. even with Jerry Seinfield is mom and dad always tried to set him up, tell him to settle down and find a nice girl. was his lifestyle not acceptable??

the other part i wanted to comment on was about our mothers. that is a very interesting thought. the way our mothers held their roles in the household probably created most of the AFCism or atleast made it seem like this is the way it is suppose to be. but... WHERE DID THEY (MOM) GET THIS FROM??? their mothers? and where did THEIR mothers mother get this from?

this had to start somewhere.

 

[romangod]

what do you guys think? while this is a pretty far out there hypothesis, i believe that the vast majority of men who have problems with women do so because of some element relating to their mother.

i know this sounds pretty crazy (and perhaps even deflecting from personal accountability), but when you really think about it, its not so far fetched.

I tend to agree. Your hypothesis is not far fetched. The "mother" angle has been around from Greek Mythology to Freud to the Sopranos. A man's relationship to his mother has deep psychological meaning.

My mother to me is a role model for the type of woman I'd like to settle down with. She's strong, useful and spiritual and does not crumble under every day pressures. To her, family is the most important thing in the world along with God.


.

 

[penkitten]

I tend to agree. Your hypothesis is not far fetched. The "mother" angle has been around from Greek Mythology to Freud to the Sopranos. A man's relationship to his mother has deep psychological meaning.

My mother to me is a role model for the type of woman I'd like to settle down with. She's strong, useful and spiritual and does not crumble under every day pressures. To her, family is the most important thing in the world along with God.


.

greek mothers used to raise their boy children to the age of 7 when the country came and took their sons to prepare for military. they had no say so, but even if they did, they felt as if it were an honor that their son would learn everything he needed to in order to defend their country or statehood (separate islands)

they went off to this sort of military school and learned to fight, and got an education. it was pretty brutal. by the time they were 17, they were adults and fighting in that army for the things they believed in.

if their children were born deformed, sometimes they choose not to keep that child alive, because he would not be picked for military, which would enable him from a future.

saw it on the history channel!!

 

[jophil28]

and the key point i wanted to make was NONE of these women / mothers, admit to the damage they caused in their offspring. which just goes to show the degree to which women are delusion and cannot see anyone but themselves in the victim role (and hence lack empathy even for their own children).

THis is the goldplated, set in stone truth . Women, and mothers in particular, actually believe their own publicity.

 

[reset]

This is true. I've had plenty of screaming matches with my mother, her response is "well there's no thing as the perfect mother". She just did a crappy job, flat out. Even now I can't tell her I love her when I talk to her, because I don't know what I feel about her. I'm more accepting of her lately, we get along better but it's hard to say "I love my mom".

BTW that's a great thing to bring up with the ladies. "Hey sexy, come on over and I'll show you my abandonment recovery book." :crackup:

Luckily I didn't grow up with her, but my Dad.

But what do you do? It's over. You still have to move on, I hope by doing the stuff Interceptor mentioned I'll get there. I refuse to feel defective just becasue of my childhood. I used to, but not anymore. Actually the more "me work" I do the more I can see how she ended up the way she did, I see the patterns, so I feel I have a little more control over them.

 

[reset]

It's not about blame, but about understanding how your mindset is formed. My mother had her own crappy childhood. It's not "good" or "bad".

 

[Señor Fingers]

Good post.

I actually disowned my mom for a couple of years for this and a lot of other reasons. Eventually she came around and apologized for the damage she'd done. We are actually pretty tight now (despite our different beliefs).

I'd also add that today's Men are also weak because there is no real need for them to be strong anymore..

• Society has stabilized and we dont need to fight off neighboring tribes
• Supermarkets have disconnected us from our inherent nature as hunters
• We live in a culture of indulgence and that means little to no sacrifice or personal growth

I suppose its just human nature to take the path of least resistance and you cant deny that our influences have a significant impact on our lives and perspectives, but in the end its our own damn fault!

The truth is that we dont fully deprogram ourselves till we take impeccable responsibility for everything we do. Our parents, societies (both public and secret) can only wield the power over us that we voluntarily give away.

 

[joekerr31]

I suppose its just human nature to take the path of least resistance and you cant deny that our influences have a significant impact on our lives and perspectives, but in the end its our own damn fault!

The truth is that we dont fully deprogram ourselves till we take impeccable responsibility for everything we do. Our parents, societies (both public and secret) can only wield the power over us that we voluntarily give away.

this is bang on and very important to remember.

but at the same time, we have to remember that nature abhors a vaccum. which means, if you remove past conditioning, you need to replace it with something else.

until men have that something else (which many get from sosuave) they have no tools to reprogram themselves.

thats why i dont blame men for their AFC state because they dont know any better. but once they find sosuave, then they have no excuse not to try and change for the better.

 

[eyedogg]

Wow - great thread ya'll!

Here is what I am getting from it: We are impacted by our upbringing/parenting. Bad experiences there: No Dad - good Mom, No Dad - bad Mom, no Dad - OK Mom, No Dad & No Mom, and the vice-versa for the first part.

In the end (as Interceptor described very well), WE/Ourselves need to recognize what is negatively impacting us and WORK HARD and for some I mean INCREDIBLY HARD at improving ourselves to be the BEST MAN/PERSON possible. Work on the YIN/YANG (balance) and we will draw better people to us, including women!

For some of us that WORK - will be NEVER ENDING. Recognizing that is an imortant key to succeed at this.

eyedogg

 

[Bible_Belt]

If mommy makes the man, then daddy makes the woman.

 

[bornyesterday]

I've been reading this forum for a couple of days now and I now feel the need to reply for the first time.

Joekerr's first post really hit the spot for me. (personal story follows. Skip if looking for shor comments.)
Although I love my mother and mean her no harm I know I'm partly ****ed up because of her.
She is a very loyal, sweet and emotional but insecure, often depressed and subservient.
My parents have had a real bad marriage when I grew up (they are mates now). In my youth after I went to bed they fought almost every night. I coulnd't sleep.
What I got from it was that my dad domineered my mother. My mother was the innocent victim, she was the good side (which in reality was mostly true btw but that's beside the point), she was helpless and dependant.
I remember that as a small boy of only 6 to 9 years old (can't remember exaclty) I swore with all my heart that I would never treat women the way my dad did.

And yes I remember well growing up at puberty and idealising women, being afraid of them, being super sweet etc. After that my experience with women was limited. And although I have gotten women from time to time and once have been in a relationship for 2.5 years I haven't been able to grow much in that department. (This is also due to having a depression disorder due to my past). And I'm now trying to figure this part of my life out.
There is another moment I remember very well. I was around 11 and was searching in the dictionary for dirty words and wrote them down. Later my mother found that list in my pants when washing them. She confronted me in front of my family and deeply ashamed me. That really created some issues i had with my sexuality and male sexuality in general.
So far my own mother.

And the big question is why I can't relate to women. I always knew my upbring and my outh was part of this. Joeker's post reaffirmed or rather made me realise it yet again that this is the case.

But there is another key thing. It's not just the emotional side, there is also the sexual side and this doesnt come just from the mother. The father has a big role here. In my case my father was terrible. Later I found out he is gay :S How about that for a sexual role model? (nothing against homosexuals btw). How does your father relate to women, to your mother. Re they fysical or cold and repressed, etc?
But beside the father there is a long history of sexuality that really has defined sexuality as to what it has become today. There is some amazing literature to be found about it.

My own issue is the image of the woman as an object of lust for men. the image that the woman herself has a more hidden passive, slower and less dominant sexuality. She has something to offer and I am the one that has to pursue it. That idea freezes me up. It also objectifies woman in such amount that I often don't know how to relate with the 'rest' of the woman. Although this is just a part of the image it makes clear how much it distorts reality and can make it hard for guys like me to relate.

Anyways, I'm reading up on these forums and it's nice to see I can relate here about it

 

[Bible_Belt]

My parents have had a real bad marriage when I grew up ... In my youth after I went to bed they fought almost every night. I couldn't sleep.

fwiw, me too, except they never waited until I went to bed.

My Dad is an awful role model in regard to women; he's a giant AFC. I gave up long ago on looking up to him, now that he is divorced I am actually his role model about women. He was married from age 18-48, so he never got a chance to develop any skills. He's got the game of a teenage kid. He's getting better, though. I have finally gotten him to stop telling attractive women that they are attractive.

We want our parents to be the great role models that they should be, but few of us are given that idealized situation. A lot of parents suck at parenting, and even some good parents make horrible decisions that stick with their kid for life. All of us have to deal with bad parenting to some extent at times in our life. Some of us had it much worse than others, but that's life. There's not much to do but find a way to get over it. You are strong enough as a person to define yourself, instead of being defined by your parents' bad parenting.

 

[LoneSilver]

I really appreciate the candid poster's who open up on here my hats off to you guys.

As men we don't usually look deep into ourselves and share it with the outside world for fears of looking weak, looking stupid and appearing less a man but to bring it to light is really being a bigger more mature man that a mature woman would be happy to be with and know.

Though we only know each other through screen names it's still real and we all need that healing in our lives and that healing will not come from a bigger paycheck, bigger house or sports car or the women we want it's has to come from us and from within and opening up it's taking that first step and to do it without alcohol, drugs is being strong and with strength.

I am amazed at the wisdom and knowledge of so many here your making a difference and makes so much sense it's almost scary. I realize everytime I come here just how much I don't know and that hurt's this ol' noggin' of mine. The mother I love dearly and whom I care for now in her illiness has been a son of a ***** for me through the years.


LoneSilver