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Structure of Worlds

Discussion in 'Anything Else' started by Pook, Jun 21, 2005.

  1. Pook

    Pook Master Don Juan

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    For five years, even in my absence, I have been attacked for looking for yourself for structure in the world.

    When you were young, your parents and friends gave you structure of the world. You knew your role of going to school, of escorting a girl to the prom, doing your chores, doing your work, and so on. After school, you are cast out into the world. What structure should you have?

    Obviously, 98% of the males and probably 99.5% of the females look for an external voice for structure. Females follow their mother. If they have no maternal figure in their lives, they adopt what society (media) tell them.

    This site deals primarily with young males. Almost always, these males hear an external voice (women) and adopt a female structure.

    How do you measure yourself? This is the 'Great Question'.

    Nice Guys measure themselves based on their degree of chivalry. "I am so nice to her!" they take as pride. They wish only to be nicer to women then they actually are!

    Materialists measure their masculinity based on their paycheck. "Look at me!" says the salesman, working god-awful shifts. "I am making so much money!" If someone is making less money then they are, they are an idiot. If someone is making more money then they are, then they are to be treated as a demi-god.

    Citizen Dildos (my name) for the Seducer/ Player types measure their masculinity based on how many girls they can sleep with. They demand 'proof' and 'reports' of "conquests" from everyone.

    Shining Stars are the type of people who want to be socially superior to others. These type of people start off in life as tattletalers. But they nevertheless end up going into journalism, law, running for political office, not because they want to but because they measure themselves based on how other people see them. These people have some fame but nothing lasting. Many irrelevant rockstars, actors, and artists fit in this condition. They become, at best, a Ben Jonson, but never a Shakespeare. Their success is short-lived. They also become famous because they fall, as shining stars are meant to do.

    Gentlemen, what do all four of these have in common? They are structures built around women.

    In a woman's life, she will go through all four of these types, as all four types serve her purposes. The Nice Guy is easily exploited (by her and rest of society). Materialists give her the gifts and things she thinks she 'needs'. Shining Stars give her the illusion of success (why get a doctorate when you can just marry a professor?) And Citizen Dildos are the mutual masturbation as she goes through these guys.

    All these guys profess they are happy, that they are the ONLY ones living the 'true' life and ALL others are living a life of shame. They are happy but not joyful. Their happiness is that of an addiction, the addiction is to feminine praise. When it is not there, these males become depressed. The four 'structures' are simply means of getting feminine praise, in some form or another.

    I have been through all four of these structures. Each one gave me pain and pleasure. The pleasure, of course, was pleasing women. I switched from one structure to another when I realized it would gain more feminine praise.

    People say the objective is sex. Then explain to me why the never-laid Nice Guy will not a) visit a prostitute b) sleep with easy girls c) Etcetera. The objective is not sex, it is feminine praise. Those addicted to it will be so endorphinized to see their lives slouch towards mediocrity.

    I trace the beginnings of female-centered life structures with Rousseau, who laid the eventual eggs that hatched matria-lineage and matriarchy. Today, it is blind to us because most of us have never been told anything different.

    My posts and ideas came not just from everyday observations but from the long line of history, religion, and literature that binds us all. It comes from famous biographies, from chats with very successful people you don't know (and some you do), and from looking at the failures in others.

    What is failure? All four personalities differ on it. But I would define failure as betraying your soul, as living someone else's dream, and having no direction in life.

    What is success? It is love. Not love for chivalrous relationship (Nice Guy), not love for pu$$y (Citizen Dildo), not love for money (Materialist), and not love for glory (Shining Star). It is the genuine love for life. Find what you love and direct your passions to it. You will know you have found the right mate not because you two love the same hobbies, but because you both love the direction you (and she) are going in life.

    If you want to live your life working for money, or being nice to women, or working for pu$$y, or being praised by society, then don't be afraid to go ahead. All life is an experiment. I could be wrong. But I am not wrong about myself. I hope you do not choose a path that is wrong for you and your soul. When it is wrong, you will know. Imagine how Jesus would feel if he was cast to play the role of Napoleon. The result is the divided soul which is a classical subject in many works, most chiefly Hamlet (a good natured artistic youth cast in the role of savage revenge by the father? How many families want their offspring to play a role they are not suited for?)

    What if we make our own structure, completely independent of feminine praise? What if we follow OUR dreams instead of women's dreams? What if the truly smart were not those who read lots of books but those who could read their own heart and soul?

    Five years I have been off and on this forum. Five years, the same dull dreary mug-wump sayings have been cast at me. I could copy and paste what was talked about me five years ago as it will match the same as today. What are my 'themes' that cause the same old sayings (and when misplaced, its praises)?

    You are the focus of your world. Not the women. Instead of pissing away your youth trying to 'please' women, why not invest that time in yourself? Such a radical concept! How dare I speak blasphemy to our Female Goddesses the youth sacrifice their lives to.

    Sex does not make you unique. Another radical concept! Because sex is what women have recognized to give often as 'feminine praise'. How many men think they are the glory of the world because of sex?

    Live the life YOU want.
    Materialist- If a man spends his life in a soul destroying job, he is held up as a model for society.

    Nice Guy- A man discovers 'great love' and throws himself at the girl, putting her on the pedestal, he kneeling, as she becomes his new goddess.

    Shining Star- Wants to enchant the gossipers, be it newspapers, television or radio shows, and whatever else. They want loud titles to hide that they are not truely men, no matter their scripted appearances.

    Citizen Dildo- A life full of notches on the bedpost. But then what?

    All four are addictive because they flood your body with stimulants. What is a Nice Guy's addiction of 'love' but a stimulant? Why don't you just get a needle and jab it in your arm, at least it won't be absurd.

    Since I am not on the typical scale of Nice Guy or Seducer, everyone wants me to act 'fully' as one or the other. But I'm neither. Most websites can be categorized into the four. This site flaps like a flag caught in harsh winds, not deciding which way fully to go, but wants to keep leaning to the Citizen Dildo. The websites that speak of a different alternative are few, just as few as the men that do it.

    Since I already have hundreds of pages of posts here, I have found a site that might help elaborate on this viewpoint further. Every post he makes is one I could have made, almost spot on.

    http://mirrorofthesoul.blogspot.com/ (note: his tone puts off many people. Also, some ideas he has are a bit too isolationsist. But his heart is in the right place: live your life instead of living for women.)

    Sexuality is rapidly becoming a political and cultural problem, as strange as that may be. Single women are increasing, birth rates are plunging, more people are becoming infertile, which causes secondary reactions (immigration becomes more pronounced, elderly social programs become threatened, governments spend money on marriage promotion and baby promotion).

    A storm is raging through our age. Too many guys are concerned about not getting wet (simply getting laid, finding a decent girl to marry, etc.) and not getting out of the way of this howling juggernaut that is already destroying nations, cultures, and family lines (of the bigger issues, such as matriarchy, plunging birth rates, etc).

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4112450.stm

    I wish you guys well. Just remember: you do not dodge a juggernaut by throwing yourself in front of it.
     
  2. whistler

    whistler Master Don Juan

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    The jewel in that post is "citizen dildo."

    :)


    Why not just adopt multiple parallel structures?

    One for me alone, one for women.

    Likewise, we're interactive creatures, and our reality is interactive.

    In limiting yourself to a structure that centers on yourself, you might very well deny reality (truth) in the process.

    Later.
     
  3. sifer

    sifer Senior Don Juan

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    Re: Re: Structure of Worlds

     
  4. whistler

    whistler Master Don Juan

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    Re: Re: Re: Structure of Worlds

    Yeah, I know Sifer. :) Thanks for the clarification.

    But I was trying to discuss what was new in the post.

    "Be yourself" is oh so important. But obvious.

    It does of course have the vague title "structure of worlds," and there's a hint of phenomenology in there, but I can't quite follow it.


    You could also say "Everything is relative. We construct our own reality. Look at the big picture."
     
  5. Pook

    Pook Master Don Juan

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    Whistler,

    The very definition of narcissism is the denial of the self. I thought it was always the opposite, that narcissism was doing what you wanted, and that those who did so were selfish, evil, etc. etc.

    But narcissistic disorder is very real and very prevalent. A 'distortion of reality' as you call it, or madness, is when people betray their gut instincts and beliefs and go out there with the crowd. Look at the history of mass movements for validation of this. People, when free, just want to live peacefully and happily. It is always the narcisstic who demand a thunder.

    Most women look at men as those who are most useful to them. But being useful to a woman is not the definition of manhood, no matter what the women say. If you are a starving artist, working your passion into music and songs, you ARE living life to the fullest. Women will see it and think, "OMG, what a loser!" What a woman would prefer is that you have a good job so you can go into massive debt with Big House, Big Dog, Big SUV, with multiple vacations a year. And that is if you get lucky. Most often after that, the wife sees herself as a 'wife' and turns into uber-mom, filling the house with ridiculous play things and child toys. Where does the starving artist come in with this? He doesn't.

    Let us say the starving artist threw off his passion, married the woman, and got a job he hated (say banking). The girl no longer sees him as a loser, but he is now a pu$$y for her to use. I don't know what choice you make, but as for me, I'd rather be a loser than a pu$$y, rather live my dreams than live hers.

    If you are in multiple paths of what I've said, then you are doublely damned. How far will you go to crave the addiction? Why not break it off? It will be the hardest thing ever to do, harder than even the fall of the Nice Guy days. Suicide rates for men are at the highest in two points, one is at the early twenties (for obvious reasons). The other point is in middle age. How would you feel about when halfway through life you realize that trying to win praise from women is a fruitless affair?

    You want to see pain? I'll show you pain.

    And a reply,

    Tell me, gentlemen, is this guy an AFC? Is he a Seducer? It doesn't matter. He got ran over.

    And this isn't an isolated case. Such a harsh situation doesn't even come from just divorce. Talk to the older ones, guys. Like Anti-Dump, they will say, "When you hear 'women like...' stick your finger into an electric socket..." Because its time to stop doing what women want! They must get married, we don't have to. Don't feel you have to do things just because. People have pressured me to get married. Other pressure me to constantly play the role of the seducer. And yet others pressure me to get Great Job to make lots of money for the eventual wife. Screw that. I'll make my own standards for my life.

    Something is very wrong, at least in my own country. If anything is unnatural, it is populations having less children than to sustain current numbers with the absence of plague, war, and natural catastrophe combined with the highest living standard. I don't know the shape of form whatever this is, but we ought to know these issues now before they consume us in middle age. And I thought awakening from the 'nice guy' sleep was 'painful'.

    But on the bright side, these things are becoming known now and are slowly being changed. In the meantime, to the older ones who have gotten ran over by the juggernaut, through no fault of their own, here is a twenty-one gun salute.
     
  6. djbr

    djbr Master Don Juan

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    Pook, I live in Brazil and things are like this around here too.

    I can totally relate to what you said. When you start digging this hole called "live for others", sometimes it's hard as hell to get out of it (take the married guy Pook quoted for an example).

    Worse still, your life becomes "null" out of it. You become used to see everything accordingly to what others expect of you, losing track of what YOU want.

    edit:
    - something like 95% of brazilian divorces are requested by women. our birth rates are clinging fast too.

    - all my friends are pvssy-driven people. I have one that becomes ANGRY (yeah, he gets nervous at EVERYBODY for no reason) when he is without sex.

    I still don't think this is an only-American thing...
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2005
  7. Ricky

    Ricky Master Don Juan

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    Pook this is the most interesting post I have read in a long long time.

    I skimmed it but will come back.

    I identify all to well with the feeling lost without a woman feeling you mention. Or basing my happiness on a woman.
     
  8. djbr

    djbr Master Don Juan

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    I was thinking: did Anti-Dump imagined someone would go THAT far with his teachings?

    I wonder what he would say if he still looked this forum...

    hehehe :D
     
  9. whistler

    whistler Master Don Juan

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    Thanks for the reply Pook,

    I'm glad you've come to see the greater problems of the world as greater problems indeed.

    Now that you've helped the health of yourself, perhaps you can help the health of the world. I'd recommend science to discern the nature of those problems or politics if you already know the solutions.

    Hegel describes the progression of a man and states of moral consciousness. He's one of many men with great ideas found through introspection, and his points are terribly obfuscated in his writing. But the "take home" message from his work is that once your house is in order, you should expand the size of your house and continue the process. From yourself, to your community, to all of humanity.


    As for the meat of your post, yes, men often do live their lives for other people. That's what Jobs was driving at. But before someone can live for himself, he needs to know what he really wants.

    In the "old days" when we were often alone with mundane tasks, we had time for introspection. Our desires had time to calcify. We're much too burdened now with constant interruptions to really think. We move from the phone to the person next to us to television to the 20 new posts on sosuave without pause. It's environmentally-induced attention deficit disorder. In the absence of time to truly figure out what we really want, our desires are filled by the sources of stimulation in our lives: people, TV, you name it -- just not by ourselves.

    You want to be happy? Be alone for a while. A long while. Native Americans had vision quests for this purpose, Buddhists have extreme solitude. We currently have nothing. But we can resuscitate our inner selves by going for walks, alone, without an ipod; turning our phones off; turning off the TV.

    If you were alone growing up, it may have been painful, but trust me, all of that introspection wasn't worthless. That's what gives you wisdom and clarity. And we need more of it.

    Here's a link to a summary of that introspective work by Hegel:

    Hegel

    whistler
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2005
  10. happyfrog

    happyfrog New Member

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    "Society has set up effective, standard ways to please women so we don't have to think them on our own. Following them is not good for us because we have to pursue our own dreams. Simple answer: don't follow them... don't be rich, don't be a player, don't be a nice guy, and don't be a star." Only half true!

    WHY has society set up those ways to go? Because great men acted that way, and the weaker ones tried to copy them to show off a "false" manhood. Our reason takes note of those ways, we want to possess that kind of knowledge (this site proves it), we want to be able to recognize real men so we can take steps in that direction... Our reason sets the frame, the structure of rules in which we will later judge ourselves and induce our actions. We use our reason to "manipulate" ourselves into success.

    We are manipulating ourselves, alienating. Our reason is fighting with the rest of us, it is destroying us. It analyzes, notes, tries to change things actually so profound and automatic that we realize that WE CAN'T CHANGE IT. It is not only a "society frame" that we have to just not choose to follow, it is a "mental frame" that we must fight against everyday and can't escape from.

    But we desire the best for us. We want to be accomplished, have all kind of qualities. Isn't it OK to lightly push ourselves in the "right" direction without being manipulative toward our pitiful self? Sure, but don't overdo it, be patient, and most importantly, ACCEPT if it doesn't work. Maybe you're not a real man after all.

    When I'm not sure if I'm betraying my inner self, I try praying. Talk to God and make him respond to you. It will be a real conversation for he can see right through you and you can't fool him. I found that what I make him answer is in fact the clear voice of my inner self. :cry:
     
  11. MindOverMatter

    MindOverMatter Master Don Juan

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    Wow, this is a first. I pretty much disagree with everything you have posted. Here are my reasons:

    Not all nice guys are nice just because they want to be chivalrous to women. Some nice guys are just because it's in their nature to BE nice. These people are nice to everyone, not just girls they want. My brother is one of those people. Has never yelled, cussed someone out, or made someone feel bad. He is a good guy to everyone, and as a result he is generally well liked by everyone. Even tho he is a nice guy, girls still flock to him, because they know he's genuinely nice, and not just trying to use niceness as a manipulative front. Which brings me to this:

    Other people are nice because they think this is the way to achieve their goals in life. Be it attracting women, getting a promotion, etc. They believe that by being nice to people, those people will repay their niceness with something else. These people are not really nice guys, they're manipulative a$$holes. Do they base their lives around women? Some do. Most base their lives around themselves, and getting what they want.


    Not all materialists work insane hours just because they want female attention. Most of the materialists tend to come from very poor backgrounds, and as a result they WANT money, and put so much emphasis on it, because they didn't have it while growing up. One of my friends is a big time materialist according to you. He works 12-14 hour shifts, 5-6 days a week, and rarely even gets to have fun or enjoy the fruits of his labor.

    He doesn't brag about how much money he has, or thinks that he is better then others simply because he has more digits in his bank account. He works because he wants a secure life for years to come. If you know the guy, you'll know that women are the last thing on his list. The guy started working at the age of 11 just so he could buy a nintendo, since his family was too poor to buy him one.

    A lot of materialists have a bottomless pit that they try to fill with material possessions, since they grew up without any. It has nothing to do with focusing their world on women.


    You make it sound like their whole world is based around women just because they sleep with lots of them. Maybe when you were a seducer you just focused on girls and neglected everything else. Most players I know DO NOT base their lives around female praise, it's just a bonus on the side.

    One of my best friends is a works at clubs as DJ. He sleeps with a new girl every 2-3 nights and has lots of notches on his bed. But is that his goal in life? No, loves DJing, he loves making music, and while he does send demos out, he doesn't care if he gets famous or not because he does what he loves. He also has a degree, and volounteers with me at the cancer society.

    Yet, under your vague category, simply by f*cking lots of girls, he'd be basing his whole life around their praise, and is nothing more then a tool that they use to make themselves happy.

    Next, I'll use myself as an example. I don't f*ck as many girls as my disc jockey friend, but I do change lots of partners. I also train in muay thai, not because I want female praise, but because I love fighting, when I'm in that ring, I feel amazing. I also bodybuild, and while it does help me with women, I would keep doing it even if it didn't help me get 'female praise', because I enjoy seeing fruits of my labors everytime I look in the mirror. I enjoy overcoming challenges. I also work full time (at a job I enjoy), and volounteer with the Cancer Society.

    Martial arts doesn't get me female praise. Working out does, but I would do it even if it didn't. My job does not get me female praise. Volounteering for the Cancer Society does not get me female praise, because I never tell girls I that do this. According to you, simply because I enjoy seducing girls, and changing partners often, my whole life is based around sex and female praise. It's not, women are just one piece of the puzzle that is my life.


    Field reports / proof, has nothing to do with measuring masculinity. What is the purpose of this forum? The purpose of this forum is to discuss game, and help newcomers develop basic seduction skills/mindset to prepare them for the real world.

    One of the best ways to develop game is by observing someone who has it. In real life, you can do this by watching one of your friends who gets laid all the time, and taking note of what works for him. This is where the concept of field reports shines. By reading a forum of field reports, you basically observe players from all over the world and learn what works. I'll go as far as to say that even an AFCs field report is more useful to building game then 10 sosuave tips.

    The reason people keep asking for field reports is because they want the knowledge that comes from these field reports. Through field reports, they learn basic behaviour skills that they never learned while growing up.

    Proof is important because it gives credibility to the advice that is being given, and it is a way to expose people who live vicariously through their forum persona, and have no game in real life. These members are counterproductive to the discussion of game/seduction, because they have no experiance and just clutter the forum with advice that doesn't work. Call it blind leading the blind.

    Many people come to this site as AFCs and start absorbing all the material that is posted. After learning so much about seduction, the next step would be to go out and practice what they have learned, and come back to sosuave to help the newcomers with the knowledge they've gained from their EXPERIANCES.

    Instead, what do most people who come here do? They read the bible, absorb all the material, completly SKIP the EXPERIANCE step, and go straight to giving advice and pretending they have game as if to build some online persona. Not only are these people screwing themselves over, but they are also hurting the people who actually listen to them.

    One of the sosuave posters used to post a new tip almost EVERYDAY, and all of it was a repeat of the posts that were already in the bible (sh!t some of them were even yours). Not a single shred of information he posted was original information, because he didn't have ANY experiance. He read the bible, completly skipped the field work step, and went straight to giving advice and pretending to be a guru. Even an AFCs field report was more useful the one of his tips.

    This is why proof is important. Proof gives credibility, and lets the people know that the advice they're listening to comes from someone who has tested it, and had it work for him. By calling people out and asking for proof of their talk, we expose people who have no experiance, and prevent them from giving misinformation to the newcomers. It's also a cruel way of encouraging them to GET INTO THE FIELD, and talk to women instead of stroking their egos online.


    Again, this is such a negative outlook. Saying they do what they do only because they want to be socially superior is wrong. There are many musicians that perform because they love playing their music and making people happy. There are many individuals who run for political careers because they actually want to help their communities, not because they want to be a fat cat in Washington.

    Do they base their lives around female acceptance? Meaning, if they are famous and known, women will love them?

    Yes, some do. But the majority of people you describe as shining stars are not basing their lives after women, but rather they are chasing immortality. Every writter wants to write a book that will be read 900 years from now. Every actor wants to film a movie that will be a classic for years to come. Every musician wants to write a song that will be listened to long after he's dead, by people that weren't even born when he wrote the song. Every politician wants his name to be in the history books, and have his work taught to generations of students to come.

    These people cannot accept their mortality, and as a result, they want to live forever through their work.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2005
  12. Oxide

    Oxide Master Don Juan

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    I am trying to understand this...still lost i think:

    What are you suggesting? That we sit locked up in our rooms reading "The intelligent investor" all night long instead of going out while in college? But wait, money is bad, so now i have to look for my passions, not money or girls, right? What if my passion is to live without a boss after the age of 30, and i need money for that, why shall i fall a slave to it?

    What if I can combine all that!? I've been following my passions, but at the same time i do want to make a lot of money and i do want to go out with beautiful women, where is the foul?!

    You make it sound like guys pick one category and just concentrate on it so much everything else is left out, whetever it is money, girls, fame or whatever. Who out there (in their right mind) does this though? Who concentrates on just ONE thing?

    I like the idea of not giving in when pressured. But then again, when you know where YOU stand, giving in "just becuase" wouldnt even be an option anymore.

    Do you know how many times i've heard "Why are you taking protein, why are you on the diet?! You should stop!" ??? People shut up once they realize you are dead set on accomplishing what you are after, just takes time for them to realize it.
     
  13. quest

    quest Master Don Juan

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    pook, the types of replys you get is amazing.

    also, you write very well. you had me beleiving everything you said.

    i skipped through alot of the replys, but i read mindovermatter's and i gotto say, i agree with him moreso.

    but at the end of the day, its all pretty much irrelevant.

    as humans.

    from the day we are born, until the day we die, we will eat, **** and breathe.

    this may offend some, it shouldn't. but it is my beleif that on the day we die. thats the end of it.

    in which case, what we acheive inlife will ALL be forgotten within a generation or 3. UNLESS we acheive something great, and i really mean something great.

    heres some big names over the last 20 years or so.
    Michael Jackson
    Michael Jordan
    Bill Clinton
    Tiger Woods
    Osama Bin Laden
    Britney Spears

    theres plenty of people i'm already forgetting, but in 100 years, they'll all just be names of forgotten people.

    osama bin laden might get 2-3 paragraphs in an encyclopedia.
    michael jackson, tiger woods maybe a couple of lines each.

    and the rest of them, i'd expect no mention in 100 years.
    (Possibly Jordan in some kind of "Team of the century" for basketball.)

    So without an afterlife, what are we to acheive in our time on this planet?

    -i don't know.
    i wish i did.
     
  14. diplomatic_lies

    diplomatic_lies Master Don Juan

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    Why do you NEED to achieve anything? Like you said, all will be forgotten after our death. Even if we become great, we'll still die.

    Why not spend life just having fun, and enjoying it?
     
  15. quest

    quest Master Don Juan

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    well i do :)

    i spend 90% on my money on alcohol and girls. i waste the other 10%.
     
  16. Jake-inator

    Jake-inator Senior Don Juan

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    Great post Pook!


    I've started reading through some of this guy's blogs... pure genius.
    Finally someone intelligent has the guts to tell it like it is.

    I disagree with him on hiring prostitutes though. h0s are free :D
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2005
  17. Nocturnal

    Nocturnal Master Don Juan

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    MindOverMatter, I think you are simply looking at it the wrong way. I wrote a post about this a long time ago after I was inspired by Stephen Covey's, "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People." That link is here... maybe you can understand it a bit better from reading that.

    Take "being nice" for example. Being nice itself is not a problem, but the reasoning behind it can be. The point is that if you are nice because you think being nice makes you better than someone else, or if you seek fulfillment in "being a nice guy," things are wrong. A person can live for himself without being a jerk, but he doesn't have to be fooled by society into worshipping a woman for a fulfilling life.

    The problem with your friend is just what you said, he 'wants a secure life for years to come'. If that is why he works himself to death every day, then he is most likely unhappy. The idea from society that having a 'secure life' for yourself and your family is most important has brainwashed him. Is he living for himself? No. Having a 'bottomless pit that you're trying to fill up', just because you grew up without necessities is just allowing insecurity and fear to take over. Impoverished people realize that struggling to buy food is bad, so they make the connection that the more money you have, the better life is. That's not true once you have a roof over your head and food on your table. If you're living to avoid that situation, living to ensure 'security', you probably aren't living at all.

    Then why do so many people hate their jobs? Why do so many people feel empty when they look around them and think that their life is a great catch? How many celebrities have gone through a 'depressed drug addict turning semi-suicidal' phase? Aren't they the happiest people in the world? How many people go to college just because thats the 'normal thing to do'? How many people plan their lives based on what someone else has done ("I decided to go into _____ because that's what my father did")? They may say they like their jobs, but maybe they just like the idea of their jobs.

    It's not even always about being "socially superior." People listen to what society has to say and take it for the truth. "If you get a secure, high paying job, a wife and kids, and a nice house in a good place to retire, you are living the 'American Dream.'" Why is it the American dream? Because America is telling you what your dreams should be. Shouldn't you determine that yourself?

    EDIT: PS (somewhat O/T) Is it better to be happy or right?
     
  18. MindOverMatter

    MindOverMatter Master Don Juan

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    You misunderstood my post. I wasn't advocating any of those lifestyles. My whole post was basically a disagreement with the fact that Pook said all 4 of those types of personalities do what they do for one, and one reason only - to win approval/attention of women.

    Why do some people hate their jobs? Sometimes people cannot get the job they want (one of my profs wanted to be an Astronaut, but he couldn't have passed the physical because of his vision), and ended up settling for the position of a professor. Other times, people cannot get the job they desire right away, and in order to have money and survive, they have to get a lesser job until they can get the job of their dreams.

    Why do rock stars turn to drugs etc? Who knows. Some have psychological issues relating to their childhoods and upbringing, others do it because of the social surroundings. They have tons of money, tons of women, and little common sense. Some do it because they can. Others do it because they live their life in the present, and don't think about the future. Carpe Diem right?

    My argument was not that all rock stars have amazing lives (I have no idea where you gathered that from). I basically said that these "shining stars" as Pook calls them, do not necesserily do what they do JUST TO WIN APPROVAL OF WOMEN. Yes there are musicians who want to make it big so they can get groupies every night. But there are also musicians who are passionate about their work, and want to live forever through it. Regardless of drug addictions / lifestyles, almost every music artist wants his music to live on after he's gone. Look at 2pac for example. He made dozens and dozens of songs that he never released, just so they'd play them after he was gone and make people wonder if he was really gone.

    Also, what you described as "the american dream" is part of the natural order of things. Settling down, providing a good life for your family (shelter, food, etc), having children and seeing them through life, and then retiring is the natural way of things. This existed long before America even existed. People want this not because it's the American dream, but because it's the natural order of things. Again, it's the issue of immortality. Since we're all gonna die sooner or later, people want to ensure that their children live on and continue to pass down their genetics. Remember that saying, we raise our children to replace us. Establishing a family and providing security for it is just another way through which people think they can achieve immortality.

    As for my friend, I never once said that his life was amazing. I hate having to argue a point when you clearly misunderstood what I said. Pook said that materialists basically work sh!tty shifts non stop just so they'd be able to attain approval / attention from girls. I used my friend as an example to state that this is not true, and that guys can be materialists for other reasons. I never once said his life was amazing and that we should all live it, nor that it was healthy but I do understand where he's coming from. When you grow up poor like he did, every single material possession, every single digit on your account balance is an achievement, and the more he attains, the more challanges he overcomes, and the happier he is. He finds happyness in that lifestyle, whereas I would not.

    As for the nice guy, I was disagreeing with Pook because he said that nice guys are only nice because they like to be chivalrous and win approval of women. I think that's totally false, because there are people in the world who are nice, not for any specific motives, but because it's in their nature to be nice. Look at Pope John Paul the 2nd. He was a nice guy, he even forgave the guy who tried to assassinate him. Do you think he is only nice because he lives for the approval of women like Pook says? No.
     
  19. Create Reality

    Create Reality Master Don Juan

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    I totally agree. Success is being true to yourself and those you love.
     
  20. PRMoon

    PRMoon Master Don Juan

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    Structuring our lives around females is honestly not that suprising to me at all. Concidering that's pretty much how the circle of life works and is really the primary goal of humans as well as just about any bisexual species of animal. Though we like to think we're a step above the rest of the creatures on this planet, humans are just smart animals who've developed a complex ritual system and way of living. However the fact remains that our ultimate goal as animals is to reproduce and continue the existance of our race which is why were're all so geared towards pleasing females. A few thousand years of culture and civilization ain't gonna weed out a few million years of life evoltion. No suprises here folks, just doing what comes naturally. Our lives and civilizations will come and go with time with major shifts in thinking and cultural studies. Revolutions will come, nations will rise from ashes, but the invevetable reality is that, speaking in the long term, none of it matters because life does not care about anything that is forged at the hands of man, and it subjegates us all in that the rules of life cannot be broken or altered by us.
     

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