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Stock market..ie: crude oil

cavedweller

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Anyone here follow the stock, futures, ETF and mutual fund markets?

The price of crude oil has been falling for about two years..

When you factor in electric cars, coal plants, wind genterators, solar panels, natural gas ect. ect. where do you think it will bottom out?
 

blackomen

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With all those bailouts, lies, manipulation, etc. anything could happen.

Your best bet is to follow the trend and get out when the trend is against you. The trend's your friend.

Follow a disciplined approach.. I like Gartman's:

1. Never, under any circumstance add to a losing position.... ever! Nothing more need be said; to do otherwise will eventually and absolutely lead to ruin!

2. Trade like a mercenary guerrilla. We must fight on the winning side and be willing to change sides readily when one side has gained the upper hand.

3. Capital comes in two varieties: Mental and that which is in your pocket or account. Of the two types of capital, the mental is the more important and expensive of the two. Holding to losing positions costs measurable sums of actual capital, but it costs immeasurable sums of mental capital.

4. The objective is not to buy low and sell high, but to buy high and to sell higher. We can never know what price is "low." Nor can we know what price is "high." Always remember that sugar once fell from $1.25/lb to 2 cent/lb and seemed "cheap" many times along the way.

5. In bull markets we can only be long or neutral, and in bear markets we can only be short or neutral. That may seem self-evident; it is not, and it is a lesson learned too late by far too many.

6. "Markets can remain illogical longer than you or I can remain solvent," according to our good friend, Dr. A. Gary Shilling. Illogic often reigns and markets are enormously inefficient despite what the academics believe.

7. Sell markets that show the greatest weakness, and buy those that show the greatest strength. Metaphorically, when bearish, throw your rocks into the wettest paper sack, for they break most readily. In bull markets, we need to ride upon the strongest winds... they shall carry us higher than shall lesser ones.

8. Try to trade the first day of a gap, for gaps usually indicate violent new action. We have come to respect "gaps" in our nearly thirty years of watching markets; when they happen (especially in stocks) they are usually very important.

9. Trading runs in cycles: some good; most bad. Trade large and aggressively when trading well; trade small and modestly when trading poorly. In "good times," even errors are profitable; in "bad times" even the most well researched trades go awry. This is the nature of trading; accept it.

10. To trade successfully, think like a fundamentalist; trade like a technician. It is imperative that we understand the fundamentals driving a trade, but also that we understand the market's technicals. When we do, then, and only then, can we or should we, trade.

11. Respect "outside reversals" after extended bull or bear runs. Reversal days on the charts signal the final exhaustion of the bullish or bearish forces that drove the market previously. Respect them, and respect even more "weekly" and "monthly," reversals.

12. Keep your technical systems simple. Complicated systems breed confusion; simplicity breeds elegance.

13. Respect and embrace the very normal 50-62% retracements that take prices back to major trends. If a trade is missed, wait patiently for the market to retrace. Far more often than not, retracements happen... just as we are about to give up hope that they shall not.

14. An understanding of mass psychology is often more important than an understanding of economics. Markets are driven by human beings making human errors and also making super-human insights.

15. Establish initial positions on strength in bull markets and on weakness in bear markets. The first "addition" should also be added on strength as the market shows the trend to be working. Henceforth, subsequent additions are to be added on retracements.

16. Bear markets are more violent than are bull markets and so also are their retracements.

17. Be patient with winning trades; be enormously impatient with losing trades. Remember it is quite possible to make large sums trading/investing if we are "right" only 30% of the time, as long as our losses are small and our profits are large.

18. The market is the sum total of the wisdom ... and the ignorance...of all of those who deal in it; and we dare not argue with the market's wisdom. If we learn nothing more than this we've learned much indeed.

19. Do more of that which is working and less of that which is not: If a market is strong, buy more; if a market is weak, sell more. New highs are to be bought; new lows sold.

20. The hard trade is the right trade: If it is easy to sell, don't; and if it is easy to buy, don't. Do the trade that is hard to do and that which the crowd finds objectionable. Peter Steidelmeyer taught us this twenty five years ago and it holds truer now than then.

21. There is never one ****roach! This is the "winning" new rule submitted by our friend, Tom Powell.

22. All rules are meant to be broken: The trick is knowing when... and how infrequently this rule may be invoked!
 

cordoncordon

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blackomen said:
1. Never, under any circumstance add to a losing position.... ever! Nothing more need be said; to do otherwise will eventually and absolutely lead to ruin!
Could not disagree more. I have averaged down many, MANY times, more times than not with good results. Believe in the stocks you buy. Not to mention, when you first buy a stock, you should not be going all in. You buy in chunks of maybe 25% of what you want to buy in total each time. That way, if a stock does start to fall, your entire wad isnt spent on the first buy.

As for oil, I think oil and commodities in general are going to do VERY well in the coming months and years, as I expect inflation to start rearing it's ugly head.
 

blackomen

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cordoncordon said:
Could not disagree more. I have averaged down many, MANY times, more times than not with good results. Believe in the stocks you buy. Not to mention, when you first buy a stock, you should not be going all in. You buy in chunks of maybe 25% of what you want to buy in total each time. That way, if a stock does start to fall, your entire wad isnt spent on the first buy.

As for oil, I think oil and commodities in general are going to do VERY well in the coming months and years, as I expect inflation to start rearing it's ugly head.
And how well did averaging down oil work? From 147 to 40?

If you had the patience to wait it all out when it got back to 80 to turn this trade profitable, I applaud you.
 

cordoncordon

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blackomen said:
And how well did averaging down oil work? From 147 to 40?

If you had the patience to wait it all out when it got back to 80 to turn this trade profitable, I applaud you.
Firstly, I was talking stocks, not the price of oil. However, even in that case you are talking about buying at the absolute high, and selling at the absolute low, a near impossibility statistic wise. Not to mention, anyone buying oil at the 140's high mark deserves what they get, was a pure bubble. Every stock has its ups and down short term as well. I very rarely advocate holding on to something over a year, let alone a month. Get in, get out.
 

Trader

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cavedweller said:
Anyone here follow the stock, futures, ETF and mutual fund markets?

The price of crude oil has been falling for about two years..

When you factor in electric cars, coal plants, wind genterators, solar panels, natural gas ect. ect. where do you think it will bottom out?
Your first step is to realize that the key determinant of the price of crude oil is economic growth (absent abnormal bubbles a la 2007)

Go from there
 

cavedweller

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electric automobiles
wind generators
solar
coal
natural gas

These all have major draw backs and just ain't cutting it..

The falling price of crude is going to bottom out of these days.
 

synergy1

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oil is so crucial to our economy namely the transportation sector, i would bet on the long position. Think about it, 95% of the transportation sector uses petrol products; heavy freight, air cargo etc. Solar, wind, and electric will never substitute given our current technology. The only way we stop using oil is if we run out of it.
 

Bible_Belt

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synergy1 said:
Solar, wind, and electric will never substitute given our current technology.

The failing of all of that technology is that our batteries suck. Harnessing energy at hand is easy; ancient people could do that. But storing energy and then re-applying it is the hard part. A major breakthrough in battery technology is what we need...or cold fusion, that would be good, too.
 

Julius_Seizeher

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In the energy arena, I am dollar-costing a startup lithium miner that I think is going to make me a lot of money. We just need that contract to be announced...

There is also a new Lithium ETF introduced this summer, it's the talk of the town.

There are far better places to invest than crude oil.
 

cavedweller

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A real good point here:

If you use wind and solar to produce energy how do you store it?

Storage of power is a major problem..
 

cavedweller

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Hey guys,

Mankind has been playing the commodity market for well over 5,000 years..I play this area in my ROTH IRA.

FYI--It ain't going away..

Check out the current price of:

tea
natural gas
cocoa

There are a lot of ETS' that track commodities..
 

synergy1

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cavedweller said:
A real good point here:

If you use wind and solar to produce energy how do you store it?

Storage of power is a major problem..
right, storage requires both a large amount of raw materials and space to do so. Adding more solar and wind means adding more transmission lines which means clear cutting more forests and raw materials to build the lines, components and concrete footers etc. Regarding battery technology, its a very low energy density storage and very expensive. The battery pack in the Tesla electric car is 1/3 of the curb weight of the vehicle.

Energy has to be used as it is generated which is why always on sources like nuclear and coal are so popular. Just because you increase your wind or solar capacity doesn't mean a decrease in using traditional sources ( coal trumps them all currently hovering at 45% of our total ). When wind and solar goes off , as it does, you need coal boilers to be fired back up to generate what wind/solar isn't. most older models aren't as efficient when you operate them in this fashion.

Storing electrical energy probably won't be any good in our lifetimes, but storing energy in the form of combustible hydrocarbons probably will. Storing raw electricity requires rare earths, gas requires high pressure systems and separation technologies , but oil only requires a cup - and its energy density is magnitudes higher than the other ones. I'd love to see better energy storage via battaries, but we won't be able to top oil in this regard. I bet in 10 years, we will be able to produce oil from microalgae or something similar, but not terrestrial land crops.
 
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