Question On What's Going On

[EFFORT]

Here's what I ate, all food is organic most purchased from farmers markets. All meat is grassfed/free range

Wild caught Salmon
Beef
Chicken
Eggs
Bison
Turkey
Shrimp

Berries
Apples
Oranges
Pineapple
Acai
Plantain

Wild rice
Yam
Quinoa
Lentils
Japanese sweet potato
Chickpeas

Leafy green (spinach, arugula, chard,Choy)
Broccoli
Tomatoe
Cucumber
Carrot
Bell pepper
Squash
Celery

Almond butter
Cashew butter

Then about 10 other things I put in my morning super shake

You could definitely make improvements to your long term eating strategy. You just lack a proper system (equipment, shopping,meal prep). I can write more if you're interested.

 

[Ronaldo7]

Yes, I heard about those fasting methods as well, from what I understand it helps to cleanse on the inside as well as control hunger, correct?

Ronaldo do you mind posting what you eat on a monthly basis? I wanted to see since you are promoting a 100% clean approach, how do you manage to do that consistently each month and what foods you choose, etc. Since you are preaching this theory, I want to see if you are actually putting it into action. I personally don't know anybody that eats 100% clean and some of them have competed in Body Building competitions.

EFFORT's diet looks very good. Healthy fats, protein, vegetables and good carbs as well.

Since i am on a bulking period right now, I eat eggs, tuna, chicken, ground beef, brown rice, whole wheat bread, very low fat cheese (70 calories), lots of lettuce, cucumbers, spinach. I also have a snack consisting of fat-free Greek yogurt and a sandwich made out of organic peanut butter. It is also very high in protein. 2 tbsp = 14 g protein.

 

[Bible_Belt]

I've been on a kick lately to give up all refined carbs. I want this last 20lb or so of fat on me to disappear. It's either cut carbs or run sprints. As much as I like beer, I hate sprints more. I've seen almost every former fighter I know gain fat after they stop training. It's hard to go from requiring no discipline to eating a strict diet. I walked at about 165 when I fought at 155. At six-two, that's skinny, but I was ripped as hell. I would catch women staring at me the way we drool over a big pair of t!ts. After I quit training, my weight got as high as 220. Now I'm back down to 185. I've been drinking apple cider vinegar: http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=217017

Right now I'm having coconut oil in my morning coffee instead of sugar...and it's not bad at all. It's a lot easier on the stomach than black coffee with nothing added.

I remember in the 80's when it came out that coconut oil was high in saturated fat. It used to be in coffee creamers. It was a giant health scare, and all manufacturers rushed to replace it...often with trans fats, which we now know are the absolute worst. Cold-pressed virgin coconut oil is still very high in saturated fat, which raises bad cholesterol, but science is just now discovering that the lineolic acid in it also raises the good cholesterol substantially, so it balances out. It also aids weight loss: http://thyroid.about.com/cs/dietweightloss/a/cla.htm Pacific Islanders who eat a lot of coconut don't have more heart disease. It's also great for skin. Soldiers deployed to fight in jungle environments often noticed that the natives did not get skin diseases like they did; coconut consumption could have been the reason.

 

[Tenacity]

Okay guys that looks great, and Effort that looks like a great list.

So I looked into Refined Carbs more and the baked chips, cookies and light apple juice all fall under there.

Let me ask you guys, what if I changed the eating to the following:

Meal 1: Protein Shake with light apple juice (if you know of another juice I can use that's better than apple juice let me know, I need some type of juice on the side because again I can't drink the protein shake straight like that)


Meal 2: Boston Market chicken with corn and 3 bottles of Water, OR at-home grilled chicken in the oven with corn and 3 bottles of water OR at home-grilled whiting fish with corn and 3 bottles of water


Meal 3: Same as Meal 2 or another Meal mix with corn, the water and a meat sources such as a Steak, or potentially a Subway Salad. Also with Meal 2 and Meal 3 I could replace corn with green beans.


Meal 4: Protein Shake


There's 6-8 hours between meals which means some days I will only have about 3 meals. This new structure will eliminate all breads and the baked chips. This is an eating pattern I can stay on with foods I love to eat. Then I would do about 4 cheat days a month still, the cheat day isn't a stuff your face day but more of I will have about two small-light medium sized meals of anything I want such as fries, pizza, etc.

Remember my supplements are:

- ON Whey Gold Standard

- ON Opti Men

- Omega 3 Fish Oil

- Green Tea Extract

 

[Ronaldo7]

Okay guys that looks great, and Effort that looks like a great list.

So I looked into Refined Carbs more and the baked chips, cookies and light apple juice all fall under there.

Let me ask you guys, what if I changed the eating to the following:

Meal 1: Protein Shake with light apple juice (if you know of another juice I can use that's better than apple juice let me know, I need some type of juice on the side because again I can't drink the protein shake straight like that)

Use either of the following - Water, milk (1,3 whole), almond milk (sweetened or unsweetened - preferably unsweetened) Add blueberries, strawberries for less carbs, etc. Apple juice has sugars added. The apple juice is only going to hinder you.


Meal 2: Boston Market chicken with corn and 3 bottles of Water, OR at-home grilled chicken in the oven with corn and 3 bottles of water OR at home-grilled whiting fish with corn and 3 bottles of water

Grilled chicken at home with asparagus, lettuce, cucumbers, etc. Depending on the time of when meal 2 is, you could add brown rice/white rice or a sweet potato. Brown rice 150 g.


Meal 3: Same as Meal 2 or another Meal mix with corn, the water and a meat sources such as a Steak, or potentially a Subway Salad. Also with Meal 2 and Meal 3 I could replace corn with green beans.

No corn. Substitute it for one of the above. You seriously get more nutrients from those.


Meal 4: Protein Shake


There's 6-8 hours between meals which means some days I will only have about 3 meals. This new structure will eliminate all breads and the baked chips. This is an eating pattern I can stay on with foods I love to eat. Then I would do about 4 cheat days a month still, the cheat day isn't a stuff your face day but more of I will have about two small-light medium sized meals of anything I want such as fries, pizza, etc.

The thing that people like you don't understand is that fries, pizza and all that trash will set you back weeks. Even more depending on how much you consume. You basically take one step forward and 2 steps back. You are trying to lose the weight, right? What's the point of throwing away all your dedication for 4 days a month? You might as well be obese and not lie to yourself.

Remember my supplements are:

- ON Whey Gold Standard

- ON Opti Men

- Omega 3 Fish Oil

- Green Tea Extract

////////////

 

[Tenacity]

Ronaldo,

How long have you been on your current eating plan? And the second question is, how long do you think a person could be on an eating plan with no cheat days in it?

For the rest of my life, I can't ever eat a french fry? I understand in theory what you are saying, but do you really believe that's practical and that someone can actually do something like that for a long time? When I say long time, I'm talking....going forward until death.

Your strategy makes sense when training for an event, or performance, you want to go TOTALLY clean to get in the absolute best shape. But there's no way someone can do that for the long term man, that's what I'm saying.

 

[Tomo]

Tenacity, you remind me of my old self. I was very dogged in what I believed in. You may not believe it now but hopefully down the track you'll understand where Ronaldo is coming from. You're looking at clean eating like it is the devil when when done right, it can be like fine dining. Like everything else, it just takes time and effort to adjust and you'll instantly reap the rewards i.e. my bloating amongst other things stopped once I cut out refined carbs such as rice, noodles and bread from my diet.

It's not a strategy but a conscious choice to make a lifestyle change. Ironically I come from a very health conscious social group and have watched them grow up and become adults eating meals that consisted of the leanest of meats with veges, fruits and basically nothing processed. P.s. these are the HB9s you see on the streets in their yoga pants and looking good. I came from a family whom owned a fast food business as you see so I never understood it.

Cheat days are not good. You can set yourself back a whole weeks worth of calories if you let yourself slip. A cheat meal a week should be the go. You don't set yourself back and you have something to look forward to.

How I see it is we're lucky to have made it onto this planet, make the most of your body while you still can. Besides, I enjoy the feeling of taking my shirt off on a crowded beach in summer as eye brows are raised as opposed to the self consciousness of the average joe and his man boobs.

What you put into your body is what you'll get out. Philosophical blubber over.

 

[Tenacity]

Tomo,

But see, I agree with you. I try to eat as clean as I could possibly can, I'm a very picky eater and most things I just don't like. When I talk about the cheat days, it's only 3-5 days a month and it's one meal as you mentioned.

What do you think of my updated eating plan? My issue is that I just don't eat everything. I know that Ronaldo talked about the brown rice, I don't like that either. What's wrong with the corn? I really like corn.

 

[Ronaldo7]

Ronaldo,

How long have you been on your current eating plan? And the second question is, how long do you think a person could be on an eating plan with no cheat days in it?

For the rest of my life, I can't ever eat a french fry? I understand in theory what you are saying, but do you really believe that's practical and that someone can actually do something like that for a long time? When I say long time, I'm talking....going forward until death.

Your strategy makes sense when training for an event, or performance, you want to go TOTALLY clean to get in the absolute best shape. But there's no way someone can do that for the long term man, that's what I'm saying.

It varies every couple of months, depending on if i am bulking or cutting. Discipline and willpower have no length. The human mind can do, and conceive, anything. You talk an awful lot about "not being able" to do things. You need to change your mentality and only then will you see results. Can't, can't and can't. The only thing stopping you from reaching your goal is the bullsh1t story you keep telling yourself.

 

[marmel75]

Your sodium intake is crazy high..until you get that in check you are gonna be carrying a lot of extra water weight

 

[Ronaldo7]

Your sodium intake is crazy high..until you get that in check you are gonna be carrying a lot of extra water weight

That's one of the problems. However, he has more pressing issues. He really thinks cookies and baked chips are part of any diet.

 

[Tenacity]

I will update this thread shortly, making adjustments to the eating plan as you guys noted to the best of my ability. The bread has been cut out and just from the very short time period, I notice a lot of the bloating has stopped.

 

[marmel75]

EFFORT's diet looks very good. Healthy fats, protein, vegetables and good carbs as well.

Since i am on a bulking period right now, I eat eggs, tuna, chicken, ground beef, brown rice, whole wheat bread, very low fat cheese (70 calories), lots of lettuce, cucumbers, spinach. I also have a snack consisting of fat-free Greek yogurt and a sandwich made out of organic peanut butter. It is also very high in protein. 2 tbsp = 14 g protein.

Cutting and bulking only makes sense if you are on steroids, otherwise all you are doing is gaining a lot of fat with some muscle and then losing some muscle with fat when you cut, ending up back where you started.

 

[Ronaldo7]

Cutting and bulking only makes sense if you are on steroids, otherwise all you are doing is gaining a lot of fat with some muscle and then losing some muscle with fat when you cut, ending up back where you started.

It depends. When you hear the term 'bulking', you probably envision a dirty bulk or a not so clean bulk. Lean bulking is the correct way to do it, without using gear. Patience is a virtue. Some people have it, others resort to gear.

 

[Tenacity]

Wanted to bump this. It was totally the bread, I have eliminated it since early September and all of the bloating and additional "weight storage" is gone. It's back to where it was before.

While I have this bumped, what do you guys think about "reasonable" expectations from our fitness goals? What I'm referring to is that, I have NEVER had an entire 6 pack showing unless I was extremely under my normal weight. This was during high school when I was on the wrestling team and basically skin and bones (I was a suck a.ss wrestler, let's not even bring that up lol).

But I have a 4 pack going on, and pretty much have always had that. The upper body looks nice, the lower body is "ok" but there's not a lot of muscle definition in my legs.

Women for the most part, have no issue with my body though. When I take my shirt off it's pretty noticeable that I work out, and again the nice little 4 pack along with the definition on the upper body gives me a solid appearance.

I eat pretty healthy, as I stated before it's not 100% TOTALLY CLEAN but that's not attainable by any standards. I know you guys are on the H+F forum and you have to promote a "standard" but let's just look at reality here. If a person is eating clean a solid 80% - 85% of the time, that's efficient enough based on my research as well as watching my body patterns.

But is obtaining a 6 pack a reasonable goal for everyone? The science says that you need to get your bodyfat percentage down to a certain level before you see ALL of your abs....but the question is, what if the level that you need to get your BF down to, would be structurally unhealthy for you personally?

 

[Bible_Belt]

Everyone has their own concept of healthy. World champion powerlifters and NFL players will often have big guts. Compare that to a pro boxer with 2% body fat, and they look like opposite pictures of health.

A friend of mine just had a pro boxing match on tv. Every other boxer in the event looked like they could have been a male stripper as a side job. My friend kind of looks like the guy they call "Big Country" in the UFC. He ended up losing due to a complete bs doctor stoppage, but now all the major networks are calling him and wanting to put him on tv. I guess he makes good entertainment, because he looks so different.

I don't think 6-pack skinny is unhealthy at all, or else there would not be so many pro athletes with that look. It just depends on the sport whether or not low body fat is an advantage. In team sports like football, it can even depend on the position. And probably the individual as well. The St Louis Cardinals have a first baseman who looks like the fattest guy on the team. But he was far from the slowest player, 2nd on the team in triples to a guy who is one of the fastest in mlb.

 

[Tenacity]

BB and Espi,

Excellent information. Here's my question though, how much does genetics play into this? For example, let's say you Espi might need to be at 8% - 10% BF for your 6 pack to show, but let's say my genetics is that I might need to be at 4% - 5%.

10% is attainable for me, but 5% isn't. Being at 5% would require I do some serious updates to the eating to a point where....I might have to go back DOWN to the skin and bones I was during my high school years. Which during that timeframe, statistically, I was unhealthy (but I had a 6 pack!)

So how much does genetics play into this?

I guess my overall point of view/question is, the fitness community always talks about the concept of "the 6 pack" as being the ultimate sign of FITNESS. But I have had a 4 PACK for a while now, even when I get OFF my diet related eating structures and gain weight....when I get back on and the weight drops I still go right back to the 4 PACK. For me to get to the 6 PACK, I would need to keep going DOWN in weight which is unhealthy for me.

Is having a 4 pack okay ? I mean, when I take my shirt off I just svck in for the most part but you can easily see the 4 pack "lumps" but at the bottom has no lumps on it, it's just very soft. The top 4 are very hard and the bottom is soft. Which is also confusing because I am told it's one muscle, so then if it's one muscle, how could the top 4 be hard and showing but the bottom 2 not be?

When you look over the internet, through Google, you find THOUSANDS of guys with this same problem. So is this just a genetics based thing?

 

[guru1000]

For example, let's say you Espi might need to be at 8% - 10% BF for your 6 pack to show, but let's say my genetics is that I might need to be at 4% - 5%.

10% is attainable for me, but 5% isn't. Being at 5% would require I do some serious updates to the eating to a point where....I might have to go back DOWN to the skin and bones I was during my high school years. Which during that timeframe, statistically, I was unhealthy (but I had a 6 pack!)

So how much does genetics play into this?

Most people underestimate their bf levels. With 10% bf, your 6-pack as well as all your muscle bellies will clearly show and separate; hardly any exceptions to this rule. Some 10%ers tend to still hold bf around their lower back/love handles, but this in no way impedes your 6-pack separation.

5% bf level or below is competition shape/ready, thus not possible to maintain long-term. You can manage 10% bf levels long term with proper diet.

http://http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-koEUmGC-j7M/UVsKx8LJTcI/AAAAAAAAAIc/VQLnf7cEZgs/s320/body+fat.jpg

See chart above.

15%: (1) Appear that you work out; (2) Little vascularity in arms and forearms; (3) Abs vaguely show when flexed; (4) No clear separation of muscle groups.

10%: (1) Appear as a fitness model; (2) Prominent vascularity in arms and forearms, and slightly in legs; (3) All abs show while unflexed; (4) Clear separation of all muscle groups.

< 8%: (1) Appear competition preparatory or ready; (2) Vascularity in shoulders, chest, and abs; (3) Striations appear in most muscle groups.

The foregoing is a guideline. Discrepancies can occur:

1. Water retention may give the illusion of higher bf levels. Contrariwise, taking a diuretic or water loss may give the illusion of lower bf levels.
2. Fat dispositions are not identical: My friend holds 20% bf estimated and has chest vascularity and a tub full of fat around his waist. Our fat depositories vary, but the above delineates a guideline to work from, as opposed to, or to augment with, contradictory bf tests.


If you want an opinion of your bf %, feel free to post a pic.

 

[Tenacity]

I'll have to snap a few pictures. So you guys are under the belief though, that MOST people can see their 6 pack if they just "work at it" long enough? You guys don't believe that for some people......seeing the 6 pack isn't attainable because it would put them statistically at an "unhealthy" composition?

It's just that I meet guys who are in my position all the time, workout all the time, the women like their bodies, but they are not with a 6 pack. They have that 4 pack with the little "tug" at the bottom where the last remaining 2 abs to complete the 6 pack is supposed to be.

The only time I had a 6 pack, was when I was about 125 - 135 lbs growing up in high school. I'm at about a weight of 175 - 185 right now, and I only have a 4 pack.

I estimate, that if I get down to 160 - 165 I can easily see the 6 pack, but how in the hell do you LIVE on that? I would be statistically unhealthy.

 

[guru1000]

You need to gain more lean muscle mass then. I’m 6’1, 190 lbs., 10%. I am approached, or glared at, by more hot women at this bf level than at 15%+ bf--unequivocally.

I bet you are at 12-15% now. Notwithstanding, you will attract more hot women at 165 lbs. @ 10% than 180 lbs. @ 15%+, assuming you are not over 6’1.

Not sure what you mean by unhealthy composition/statistically unhealthy.