Protein, fat, and muscle. Any tips on diet?

[RMM]

Hi chaps.

Let's see if someone can give me some tips. Here's the situation.

Joined the gym about a month ago, with the intention of getting a good body tone. I'm generally active in summer (hiking/tramping mostly), but I get lazy and lose fitness in the winter, so I decided I may as well kill two birds with one stone and join the gym in the winter. Now, for the dilemma.

The trainer said I have to eat lots of protein if I want to build up muscle and get results. 200g a day at least, and move up from there. However the kicker is that I need to lose some 15-20 pounds of fat too too.

I'm 6'1", clocking in at 210 pounds currently. I've noticed that in this month my belt feels a little bit more loose, but the weight went up too. That's okay, muscle is heavier than fat, and I've lost some of the latter, but I have to lose more fat.

Now, the thing is, at 200g+ protein a day, I just don't see many ways of cutting down calories, except by living on protein shakes (I take 50g protein a day from shakes) and bars and similar. I have tried changes on my diet, but I really don't want to cut down on my fruit intake, or I'm going to go low on several vitamins. So I'm trying to make everything low fat (trimmed milk, 99% fat free low sugar yoghurt for the breakfast "Special K Protein" cereal and so forth), but cutting down carbs just stimulates gluconeogenesis and breaks protein to create glucose, so I'm not sure how well that would work.

Tips on this? How many calories should I be looking at per day? I go to the gym 4 times a week, with this schedule:

Monday: PT session, 1 hour, where he beats me up pretty bad
Tuesday: Cardio, I'm usually too tired to do anything else, but my legs manage a hour on the exercycle doing hill climb fine (burns about 500 calories).
Wednesday: Rest.
Thu & Fri: Weight machines on my own, which tends to be less intense than with the PT. Thinking of fitting some light cardio at the end if it'll make a difference.

On a separate note, I've got a very unbalanced body right now. Due to the kind of exercise I did regularly (the hiking), my legs are pretty good. I max out my routine at 10 reps @350 pounds with the leg press, and I stopped doing calf pushes at my trainer's advice when it became clear that the maximum weight of the machine (some 400 pounds IIRC) didn't really faze me, I could do 30 reps without much trouble - I apparently have to wait until I have more balanced legs. However, my upper body sucks (specially my arms - and specially my triceps, the biceps tends to hold out better and let me do the rowing/pushing/back exercises well), usually my triceps gives way halfway through my sessions and I have to work the chest and shoulders with exercises that don't involve them - and that's quite annoying too. Any advice on the triceps thing other than hit it hard and often?

 

[djnc]

I plugged your stats into ShapeFit's Calories Per Day Calculator and basically you would be looking at 2500-3000 calories per day. That would be going off of:

This calculator gives an approximation. If your goal is to lose weight by burning off excess body fat, aim to eat 500 fewer calories per day than your daily caloric needs, and maintain or increase your exercise activity. Do not go below 1200 calories per day unless on a medically supervised weight loss program or after consultation with your doctor.

I believe that 1g of protein is 4 calories, so you're looking at ~800 calories a day just from protein. This is doable. Carbs are also 4 calories/gram, while fat is 9 calories/gram. I know you said you are looking at low fat things, just remember that if you are eating something that is fatty, to look for protein in it. I found this little thing, it may help you:

The Best Sources of Protein (% Protein – % Fat)

Skinless turkey breast 94-5, Shrimp 90-10, Orange roughy 90-10, Pollock 90-10, Lobster 89-5, Red snapper 87-13, Dungeness crab 86-10, Buffalo 84-16, Venison 81-19, Halibut 80-20, Clams 73-12, Lean pork tenderloin 72-28, Veal 68-32, Chicken liver 65-32, Lean beef flank steak 62-38, Salmon 62-38. [source: USDA sr18]

It should be noted that things like Shrimp usually have 0 fat and 0/1g carbs. Shrimp is filled with protein, try to eat shrimp and/or other seafood when you can.

Last thing I would say is to get Casein protein if you don't already use it. It's a protein that breaks down slower in your body so you take it before bed so that your body gets protein while you sleep. Little thing on casein too

To effectively take advantage of whey and casein proteins, you need to use them at the right times of the day. Casein protein is the only protein you should be taking before going to sleep. The reason is because your body needs to be sustained for six to eight hours during your sleep without food. You don’t want your hard-earned muscle being broken down in your sleep, so a protein that is slowly released over time is best. If you took whey protein before going to bed, it would do very little since whey is absorbed and used within an hour.

 

[Quiksilver]

Any advice on the triceps thing other than hit it hard and often?

Uhh, yeah... Try hitting triceps harder and not as often.

 

[Captain Harlock]

Leg press doesn't mean ****. And 160 kg isn't a lot either. You need to squat if you want to claim you have good legs. Don't wait for anything, just squat. Your trainer is a dumbass. There is absolutely no reason to stop training your legs.

 

[Quagmire911]

Here's something I've been telling people who want to lose weight:

"Cut out all the junk, sugars, etc. Nothing like white pasta or white bread either, stick to the wholegrain varieties. You can have a couple of cheat meals a week, but keep the portions to a reasonable size, and count it towards your overall calories for that day. You shouldn't be starving yourself, you want to raise your metabolism with some cardio and keep your calories 15-20% below maintenance. Look up the Katch-McArdle formula for accurate daily calorie requirements.

Try to eat 4-6 smaller meals a day, and be sure to have a good helping of protein at each meal. Every 4th day bump your calories to maintenance levels to keep your metabolism high.

Start of with the weights 2-3 times a week and take a few weeks to learn good form, but don't go too light. Use ironaddicts.com for any weights info.

Add in cardio 3-5 days a week for 30-45 minutes, and you are set. Biking, rowing, elliptical are ideal. Running doesn't go hand in hand with weight training. I would try to do more days rather than less.

When losing fat you can expect to lose 1-2 pounds a week. If you are new to weight training however you may put on some muscle which may be misleading as that will counterbalance the weight dropping on the scale. It is therefore a good idea to measure your waist and look in the mirror. Since you have quite a bit of weight to lose however, I'd also measure chest/arms/legs. There should be noticeable changes every 1-2 weeks, if not something is wrong.

If weight loss is slow, reduce the number of carbs you are eating and eat more protein.

I would also supplement 15g of fish oil per day or one tablespoon to aid in fat loss."


I would also cut out protein bars, they generally have a lot of junk in them. I'd also be careful with protein shakes, whey is good, but meal replacement shakes and weight gainer are filled with sugar and are terrible.

I would recommend focusing on getting the fat off at the moment. Realistically I'd give yourself a target of somewhere around 10-12 weeks to get of the 15-20lbs. During this time you can start off with weight training, learn good form, and get a bit stronger. Once you are happy with your body fat percentage, then is the time to really up the protein, and bump calories in the other direction and build some muscle whilst keeping up the cardio and not getting fat again.

Trust me, 200g of protein a day isn't really a lot. I wouldn't worry about it a whole lot at the moment. A good rule of thumb when losing some fat is to try and stick to around 1g of protein for every pound of bw. It's not a set rule though, and your not going to waste away if you only hit 150-160g a day, you'd actually be doing a lot better than most. Just focus on hitting 200g and if you aren't reduce the carbs a bit and put in a little more protein.

I think people tend to overthink this weight loss stuff. If your trying to get down to areound 12% body fat and your not obese, stop eating complete ****, exercise frequently, and control your diet, and pretty soon your going to be there.

Anyway good luck,

Quagmire

PS-Watch the alcohol consumption, it stops fat loss. Minimize the amount of food you eat when drinking, if any at all. If you don't drink, good for you, it's going to be even easier.

 

[RMM]

Thanks for the feedback chaps! Just a couple of things

Leg press doesn't mean ****. And 160 kg isn't a lot either. You need to squat if you want to claim you have good legs. Don't wait for anything, just squat. Your trainer is a dumbass. There is absolutely no reason to stop training your legs.

Wasn't really a bragging claim (though now that I read it, it may have come across like that). I mean, at 160kg and 10 reps I'm just above "average" if I did the maths correctly, but it's much better than my wimpy arms or upper body in general. MY legs manage that and doing bike workout fine, so they're good... as far as I need them And the calf thing is just funny, why are they stronger than my quads is the question!

I would also cut out protein bars, they generally have a lot of junk in them. I'd also be careful with protein shakes, whey is good, but meal replacement shakes and weight gainer are filled with sugar and are terrible.

I noticed that! Goodness, I was looking at the bars and some of them were just scary. 19g of protein, 9g of fat and 35g of carbs? Yikes! I'm sticking to whey protein shakes (not meal replacements) and I've found a "low carbs" brand of bars, 19.5g protein, 3.4 fat, 4.5 sugar, that one sounds all right. I'll also look at Casein and see what I can find. I'm eating lots of mussels lately, New Zealand seems to be big on mussels for some reason

Oh yeah,

Uhh, yeah... Try hitting triceps harder and not as often.

*Laughs* Not sure if I can hit them harder, usually by the time I'm done I can barely lift one arm to stretch the triceps on the other, but maybe letting it recover more may be better. It's just so frustrating that they're basically limiting my chest/shoulders workout options because they're wimpy as all hell.

Thanks everyone for the advice!

 

[The Muscle Guy]

Your trainer doesn't have you do deadlifts or squats???

People like him are an insult to my profession.

Heavy deadlifts and squats promote natural testosterone production. That translates into increases of strength and size for your ENTIRE BODY, not just legs.

 

[Bible_Belt]

You don’t want your hard-earned muscle being broken down in your sleep, so a protein that is slowly released over time is best. If you took whey protein before going to bed, it would do very little since whey is absorbed and used within an hour.


Really??? I thought the workout was what broke down the muscle, and then over the next few days, the food you eat provides the nutrition to rebuild the muscle.

Is a whey shake before bed really a bad idea?

 

[Quiksilver]

No it's not a bad idea Bible.

*Laughs* Not sure if I can hit them harder, usually by the time I'm done I can barely lift one arm to stretch the triceps on the other, but maybe letting it recover more may be better. It's just so frustrating that they're basically limiting my chest/shoulders workout options because they're wimpy as all hell.

Dude, I meant use a heavier weight for less reps.

Instead of doing 3 x 30 @ 50lbs, do 3 x 15 @ 100lbs.

Crank the weight up until you can only do 12-15 reps of it, then do 2-3 sets.

 

[RMM]

Dude, I meant use a heavier weight for less reps.

Instead of doing 3 x 30 @ 50lbs, do 3 x 15 @ 100lbs.

Crank the weight up until you can only do 12-15 reps of it, then do 2-3 sets.

In retrospective, that should have been obvious the first time around (and yet I parsed it differently), thanks for the clarification!

 

[blinkwatt101]

96% of trainers don't know what they are talking about. Of the 4% that do know what they are talking about,3% actually look good without a shirt on.
Never stop working out a muscle because it doesn't faze you. As long as blood is still getting to the muscle weekly it will not become lazy and out of shape.

Calories mean nothing...as long as you are eating healthy. You body will take all the nutrients and minerals that it needs from the food and discard the rest. If you stick to cooking your own food and eating raw fruits and veggies you can eat an endless amount and never get fat and if you workout routinely,muscle will come in. Granted you can't pound potatoes and cans of corn before bed but you get the point.

Always find your niche with food. Whether it be white meat,red meat and so on. Always make sure you like what you are eating otherwise you will stick to you it in time. Just some suggestions off the top of my head;

-Toast 2 pieces of whole wheat bread,put 1/2 can of solid white tuna in it,and pour some olive oil on it and go to town!

-Toast 2 pieces of whole wheat bread,get almond butter and pour a little honey on it. Amazing! Personally my favorite breakfast!

Paying attention to those calculator and BMI stuff is a joke. According to the BMI index I'm overweight. I'm 5 8" 158lbs at 5% bodyfat. Not fat at all.

 

[RMM]

Whyyyyyyy meeeeee?

Things are going great, I'm 6 pounds down, which doesn't sound like much until one considers I've dropped almost a whole size of pants. Hitting the gym often, pumping out the cardio (HIIT run and interval bike), I was still going easy on the free weights until I had good form - definitely not pushing it. I'm specially paranoid about the deadlift, I injured my lower back when I was younger, and while it doesn't bother me usually, I want to make sure I have perfect form before I really start going hard with them.

My arms are starting to feel great. The triceps are growing well and really feeling hard when I flex them.

But! Today I was doing doing triceps dips at the end of the routine (and I'm finally able to do them properly, feet on a bench and 10 kg on my lap), and when I was at 12 I felt this *thunk!* on my chest. I actually heard it too. I was sure someone had thrown a stone at me or something, it felt exactly like that.

No stone to be found. I was sitting on the floor by then, so I wait a bit to catch my breath, then get up and when I used my arms to get up I felt this incredibly sharp pain on the upper part of my sternum.

WTF!

A visit to the doctor and an X-ray later, no fracture, but I've definitely damaged some soft tissue there. Painkillers and antiinflammatories, and a whole range of movements I can't do without pain. When not doing those exercises, it's only mildly uncomfortable. I cn go to the gym, doctor says, but definitely not doing workout that stress the pecs on any way (be it flexing or stretching).

So I guess I'm back to "isolated muscle" weight machines for the next 4-6 weeks, and no chest workout. Hrmph :-/

 

[mrRuckus]

Use a dip station and/or those parallelish bars for dips. The behind your back on a bench thing isn't good for your shoulders at all.

 

[nateistoraw]

Your Body Mass Index is 27.7
You are Overweight!
http://prodigygm.com/bmi_c.html

 

[azanon]

BMI is next to useless for a body builder. In fact, below 25 BMI definitely means one thing.... you might have muscle, but you don't have a whole lot of it.

 

[CaptainJ]

Completely cut out carbs from your diet. Eat as much FAT and protein as possible. Eating carbs stimulates production of an enzyme which makes ft become absorbed and stored on the body. No carbs = no enzyme = no fat. Fat is an important part of a weightlifting diet! You can't gain muscle easily without it. It will provide your energy needs instead of carbs. Only eat carbs post workout if you are going to have any.

Also get squating and deadlifting, get rid of your personal trainer if he isn't teaching you how to do these. Hell get rid of him anyway, he's just a useless drain on your bank account. Do a strength training routine like stronglifts 5x5.

 

[bud_2005]

Completely cut out carbs from your diet. Eat as much FAT and protein as possible.

So what is it? One person suggests eas as much fruit and veggies as possible but you are saying no to that obviously because fruits and veggies have carbs.

 

[muscleman]

Carbs aren't bad if you eat them in moderation. The suggestion about cutting out all carbs (aka Atkins) is BS. I've tried it. Have fun lifting on that. You will feel like sh!t day in and day out. Regarding carbs, here are some tips:

-Limit them. Only consume carbs when needed.
-Consume low-GI carbs shortly pre-workout for sustained energy.
-Consume high-GI carbs immediately post-workout with (whey) protein. It replenishes glycogen stores and helps in protein absorption.
-Consume limited low-GI carbs with other meals: this means veggies. Helps you poop too.
-Fruits are ok in moderation, usually with food (even though the carbs are high GI, consuming them with slow digesting food will have less of an impact on your insulin). Vibrant colored fruits (mainly berries) are awesome sources of nutrients that are good for overall health. Eat berries.
-Milk is ok in moderation. It does have a decent amount of sugar (lactose), but the casein is great and it's a prime ingredient to mix with whey for yummy protein shakes.
-Eat whole eggs. Great source of good fat, good cholesterol, and good protein.
-A "typical" bodybuilder diet for bulking is 40/40/20 - 40% protein, 40% fat, 20% carbs. For cutting it's different, something like 60% protein, 30% fat, 10% carbs.

Regarding whey - don't take it before bed. Whey is so popular because it's a fast digesting protein. There are really 2 optimal times to take whey: in the morning (since your body just went without additional nutrition for 8 hours) and right after a workout (when your body is starving for protein to begin tissue rebuilding).

Before bed you want something that digests slowly. Solid food helps. If you want to do it in shake form, use milk (casein) protein or egg protein powder. Cottage cheese is popular, though personally I hate it.

 

[blinkwatt101]

Cut out carbs?????.......I've never heard such mislead advice. Healthy fresh carbs speed up your metabolism. Hell I eat a whole cantaloupe in a sitting sometimes 4 hours before bed and I can still hold 5% bodyfat.

To the original poster. If you eat healthy natural carbs,ie. fresh fruits and veggies,or frozen ones(w/o added sugar) you won't gain weight. Stay away from potatoes and corn at night though if possible.

As for being injured.....EAT AS MUCH HEALTHY FOOD AS YOU CAN...do not rely on medicines and stuff to cure you. Eat fruits, veggies and protein to help the muscle healing process. Don't be an idiot and lift more then 10 lbs on any workout. Your chest is injured...

 

[RMM]

To the original poster. If you eat healthy natural carbs,ie. fresh fruits and veggies,or frozen ones(w/o added sugar) you won't gain weight. Stay away from potatoes and corn at night though if possible.

Yep, that's what I've been doing, and it's working well. I usually have a few packages of frozen veggies ready (usually a bean/broccoli/corn mix or similar) because the convenience makes it easy for me to skip unhealthy stuff. If I can get a good serving of steamed veggies in 3.5 minutes in the microwave, there's no incentive to unhealthy fast stuff. Lots of salad, raw carrots and cauliflower with hummus, all works well.

As for being injured.....EAT AS MUCH HEALTHY FOOD AS YOU CAN...do not rely on medicines and stuff to cure you. Eat fruits, veggies and protein to help the muscle healing process.

Yeah, definitely. I'm not gonna cut down even if I can do less exercise, I'd rather not lose so much for the next few weeks than slow down my recovery.

Don't be an idiot and lift more then 10 lbs on any workout. Your chest is injured...

*Laughs* Indeed, as this little adventure amply demonstrated!

I think after I get over this I'll just stick to lifting and cardio, and if I do arms I'll do more isolated stuff. The ropes/cables/whatever it's called machine (if anyone can figure out which one I'm talking about) has a variety of exercises for biceps/triceps that don't touch the chest at all, and the rest will just be taken care of with the lifting.