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pluto

Bokanovsky

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It's hard to be excited about space exploration these days. After the achievements of the 60's and 70's, the "space science" fell into stagnation and hasn't accomplished much. No advances in propulsion technology, no colonies on other planets (or even the moon), no manned missions beyond our own orbit. NASA can't even build a shuttle capable of transporting men and supplies to the International Space Station and has to rely on 1960's era Russian rockets. So much for "progress".
 

backbreaker

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1. it is not physically possible for us to live on earth "forever". The sun at the end of the day is a star. It's about half way through it's life cycle. in about 1-2 billion years the sun will get much muh hotter the older it gets and will heat up the planet, killing all vegetation and drying up the oceans. It will be burning 5-10x hotter than it is now. that has nothing to do with global warming, that's just the sun being a star.


2. IF by some chance we figured out by then how to live underground or something, in about 5-8 billion years the sun once it's close to using all it's energy will expand and will engulf mercury, Venus and earth, quite possibly mars.


3. Most scientists who study this type of **** estimate that the human species will live between 500-750 million years before dying out at the rate we are going now
 

Bokanovsky

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backbreaker said:
3. Most scientists who study this type of **** estimate that the human species will live between 500-750 million years before dying out at the rate we are going now
The probability of the human race surviving for another 500 million years is effectively nil. Modern homo sapiens has been around for about 200,000 years and has already come close to extinction on at least tree occasions (Toba volcano eruption 75,000 years ago, Black Plague in the 14th century and nuclear standoff in the 20th century). Between natural disasters, epidemics, overpopulation and nuclear proliferation, it would be a challenge to survive for the next 500 years, let alone 500 million.
 

Peña

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Lot of downers around posting showing no interest in Pluto and what is in our galaxy. Talked to some people today who expressed the same thoughts. Not caring about what is out there or what we can see and find to maybe help us on Earth. Boring people who have no interest in anything. Crazy.



bradd80 said:
Instead of spending money on how to get off this planet, I think the money would be better spent figuring out how to keep living on it.

The United States is $15 trillion in debt, and spending billions of dollars on probes that take pictures of frozen pieces of rock in space in the hope that one day we can avoid our problems on earth instead of actually trying to solve them is in my opinion, not the best solution.

I think focusing on practical objectives should be the direction until the economy turns around.
The point is they are not spendng money for useful things anyway. Germany spends more money on medical research than the U.S. does. Nothing wrong with exploring space and learning about other planets that used to be only an assumption of what they thought it was. We can be looking for things that could be used on Earth to help us. Nobody complained when we sent astronauts to the moon. It was always a dream to do that. It was a disgrace to the U.S. to have the USSR become more powerful in space exploration.


bradd80 said:
As for expenditures on sports stadiums, how people choose to throw away their money is up to them and I don't agree with wasting billions on a sport stadium any more than I agree with spending money on expensive machines that take nice pictures.
Nothing wrong with spending money on sports stadiums. It brings in big revenue and helps cities economically. It also brings the city and community together.





Bokanovsky said:
It's hard to be excited about space exploration these days. After the achievements of the 60's and 70's, the "space science" fell into stagnation and hasn't accomplished much. No advances in propulsion technology, no colonies on other planets (or even the moon), no manned missions beyond our own orbit. NASA can't even build a shuttle capable of transporting men and supplies to the International Space Station and has to rely on 1960's era Russian rockets. So much for "progress".
In the 70's they did not have the good technology we have today to get the information we got from Mars and Pluto. That is progress.
 

backbreaker

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understand that space exploration and military advance for the last 60 years have gone hand and hand. The same technology that created cruise missiles was used to build the first spaceship to get us out of earth's atmosphere.


There is not an infinite amount of minds capable of figuring out how to send a man made object 5 billion miles away and those are generally, the same minds capable of figuring out how to create a space based missile defense system


I'm pretty conservative on most things, but stuff like this is not one of them. We never would have built the atom bomb if not for German / Russian defectors, becuase we didn't have the minds here. Those countries spent decades and millions of dollars building their military / scientist infrastructure and when it was time to get down and dirty they had the best minds in the world at their disposal.


It's basically the cost of peace. things have been relativity calm for the last 60 years and it's because we've always had the best technology, the best minds, the best everything pretty much. The day you don't have the best, someone thinks they can test you.


If that means spending money so that smart people can send **** to pluto then so be it. Plus Pluto is fuking awesome
 

Mike32ct

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bradd80 said:
Pluto has been around for billions of years, it’s not going to float away. Getting there as soon as possible isn’t necessary.
It was time sensitive. We had a rare and short launch window. The alignment of Jupiter was critical to utilize the slingshot effect. Otherwise, the trip would have been several years longer.


http://www.wired.com/2015/07/pluto-new-horizons-2/
 

backbreaker

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also pluto's orbit is 248 years long. it was literally a once in a life time thing
 

Boilermaker

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bradd80 said:
The fact remains that while space exploration has resulted in some nifty inventions such as CAT scans, weightlifting machines, joysticks, scratch resistant eye glasses, and the supersoaker I can't help but question whether such items are really necessary to the existence of the human race, seeing as we have managed to not only survive but also thrive for hundreds of thousands of years before we started sending out probes into space to take pictures of ice.
I put space exploration into the category of "science without any immediate returns", and fully support its use.

When Einstein wrote the three papers he wrote in 1905, inventing special relativity, explaining the photoelectric effect, and resolving the paradoxes of the Brownian motion, neither his funding agency nor Einstein himself could have imagined in their wildest dreams that what he discovered would enable GPS devices, transistors, computers, iPhones and the internet, in retrospect, we can now make direct connections from the theory of transistors, for instance, to Einstein's enormous contributions.

Without him, modern life as we know it wouldn't be the same, period.

This is precisely my point: The capitalist economy is driven by technological innovations and applications. What was discovered 20 years ago in an IBM laboratory is in our 100GB hard-disk drives now, enabling huge boosts in economy but at the time, if you go back and look at what they achieved, they will look like they are playing with their dícks. One can go back in time and give the exact discourse you are giving here to slash their funding. Isn't economy perennially under pressure? Why are we wasting valuable tax-payer (or company) dollars for experiments that might just be useless?

I concede that I would be hard pressed to find an immediate return to name an example of application for the Pluto mission, but you can't "predict" innovations since they never are within our current paradigms, by definition.

The Pluto mission is part of a neverending source of discovery and it could, for all I know, make an astounding discovery that revolutionizes everything we know and take for granted. All great discoveries that have boosted the American economy to the top have the exact same pattern.

This is the vision of the American spirit that even in the direst circumstances, irrespective of political affiliation or the dissenting conservatives, they keep up with funding these incredible missions and scientific fields with no immediate returns, understanding and strongly emphasizing their relevance. This vision is what made US, US in the first place. And I understand that it is extremely counter-intuitive to a lot of people.


Edit: Lol, an hour ago, I received a 50-page DoD (MURI) solicitation for funding Quantum Computing grants, which to a lot of people is beyond the craziest science fiction novels that will not have any immediate applications in the next 20 years, and these people have very justified, concrete reasons to for these claims. But to DARPA, it is just another Pluto mission and absolutely essential.

TL;DR Science and discovery are the main drivers of the economy. Stifling their progress will only threaten the US's clear dominance of attracting and containing the brightest minds of the world .. Plus, Pluto mission is a perfectly good example of how unbelievable feats (way beyond the demeaning description of "taking pretty pictures") can be achieved with meager resources.
 

The_flying_dutchman

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If we could use the moon as a launching point then inter-planetary travel would be much more probable due to the low gravity and low escape velocity of the moon.
 

Mike32ct

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The_flying_dutchman said:
If we could use the moon as a launching point then inter-planetary travel would be much more probable due to the low gravity and low escape velocity of the moon.
The low escape velocity of the moon is an advantage. For earth, it's like 11,200 meters per second. I wonder what it is for the moon. Plus, I'm really too bored for my own good right now lol....

(1/2)mV^2 = Integral from moon radius to infinity [G*m*m_moon)dr/r^2]

The "m" cancels, so the mass of the object doesn't matter here.

(V^2)/2 = G*m_moon* [(-1/r)<Evaluated from moon radius to infinity>]
(V^2)/2 = G*m_moon* [(-1/infinity)-(-1/R_moon)]
(V^2)/2 = G*m_moon*[(0)+(1/R_moon)]

V_escape = Square root (2*G*m_moon/R_moon)

According to N A S A, the radius of the moon is 1738.1 km or about 1738100m. The mass of the moon is 0.07342EE24 kg

So, let's try this...

V_escape_moon = (2*(6.67EE-11)*(0.07342EE24)/(1738100))^0.5

V_escape_moon = 2373.82 ~ 2,370 meters per second.

Let's check this...

The N A S A table says that the escape velocity of the moon is 2.38 km/s or 2,380 meters per second. :up:
 

Boilermaker

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Cool stuff:

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=escape+velocity+of+the+moon+in+meters+per+second

~ 2375.6

To analyze your nice result:

(1) The more massive the object (planet) the higher the velocity is (obviously)
(2) Treating the object as a point-like mass, the higher the radius from center of mass, the lower the velocity (makes sense) -- since an infinitely large mass should have vanishing escape velocity.

I am wondering whether you could simplify it more by relating the mass of the moon to its radius, that is:

V_escape = \sqrt ( 2 G ((4/3)*pi*R^3)*rho / R )

take pi~3

V_escape =~ \sqrt( 8*G*rho*R^2)

where I assume rho is the average density of the moon.

Wolphram alpha gives this mean density as rho ~ 3.344 g/cm^3

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=density+of+the+moon

Let's see:

V_escape =~ \sqrt( 8*G*rho*R^2) = 2.322 km / s

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/...(density+of+the+moon)*(Radius+of+the+moon)^2)

Checks out :yes:
 

Mike32ct

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Boilermaker said:
Cool stuff:

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=escape+velocity+of+the+moon+in+meters+per+second

~ 2375.6

To analyze your nice result:

(1) The more massive the object (planet) the higher the velocity is (obviously)

No doubt.


(2) Treating the object as a point-like mass, the higher the radius from center of mass, the lower the velocity (makes sense) -- since an infinitely large mass should have vanishing escape velocity.

I am wondering whether you could simplify it more by relating the mass of the moon to its radius, that is:

V_escape = \sqrt ( 2 G ((4/3)*pi*R^3)*rho / R )

take pi~3

V_escape =~ \sqrt( 8*G*rho*R^2)

where I assume rho is the average density of the moon.

Wolphram alpha gives this mean density as rho ~ 3.344 g/cm^3

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=density+of+the+moon

Let's see:

V_escape =~ \sqrt( 8*G*rho*R^2) = 2.322 km / s

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/...(density+of+the+moon)*(Radius+of+the+moon)^2)

Checks out :yes:
Yes, that looks perfectly legit. Awesome.
 

Mike32ct

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MidnightCity said:
the way i see this things is pretty simple.

regardless of the technological byproducts as a result of space explorations research, it pretty much comes down to survival. just like everything else.

theres all kinda of cosmic events happening all the time. asteroids flying round, supernovas, blackholes, entire galaxys swallowing each other and a myriad of other things going on that can wipe us out in the blink of an eye. we dont need a cold war standoff lasting years for us to go lol. so why wouldnt we want to whats out there? who cares if its just to look around. its just probes. its going to get scary and more exicitng when its people going out there. we're set to reach mars in a few years. im stoked
Absolutely. Plus, considering the BILLIONS that our government wastes, I think $700M to get to Pluto was a BARGAIN.
 

Julian

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Who cares about the money cost. Perfect example how you clowns are stuck in the matrix. Complaining about numbers in a computer while on a computer lol. It doesn't even matter do you understand that. The dollar costs is irrelevant. Knowledge and survival is what matters. The fact is the sun is dieing so no matter what we are toast in this solar system.
 

Fatal Jay

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Julian said:
Who cares about the money cost. Perfect example how you clowns are stuck in the matrix. Complaining about numbers in a computer while on a computer lol. It doesn't even matter do you understand that. The dollar costs is irrelevant. Knowledge and survival is what matters. The fact is the sun is dieing so no matter what we are toast in this solar system.

we will be long dead before the sun dies out
 

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I'm curious and asking not as a challenge but what technological breakthroughs are directly related to the space program?

As for living on another planet I doubt there is "life" in the way we recognize it on any other planet in space so I don't think we could live anywhere else. There are parts of Earth we cannot live on afterall!

I feel like the barriers to living on Mars seem too high and will be for a long time. And that's our BEST possibility let alone hot planets or gas giants.
 

Peña

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Check out the awesome "expensive" pics of Pluto and Charon. It has canyons bigger the The Grand Canyon. Scientists are leaning a lot from the photos.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...thing-scientists-say-could-be-a-game-changer/





Pluto’s Close-Up Photo Reveals Something Scientists Say ‘Could Be a Game Changer’


CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (TheBlaze/AP) — Mankind’s first close-up look at Pluto did not disappoint Wednesday: The pictures showed ice mountains on Pluto about as high as the Rockies and chasms on its big moon Charon that appear six times deeper than the Grand Canyon.

Especially astonishing to scientists was the total absence of impact craters in a zoom-in shot of one otherwise rugged slice of Pluto. That suggests that Pluto is not the dead ice ball many people think, but is instead geologically active even now, its surface sculpted not by collisions with cosmic debris but by its internal heat, the scientific team reported.

“This is one of the youngest surfaces we’ve ever seen in the solar system,” Jeff Moore of the New Horizons Geology, Geophysics and Imaging Team said in a statement.

Breathtaking in their clarity, the long-awaited images were unveiled in Laurel, Maryland, home to mission operations for NASA’s New Horizons, the unmanned spacecraft that paid a history-making flyby visit to the dwarf planet on Tuesday after a journey of 9 1/2 years and 3 billion miles.

“I don’t think any one of us could have imagined that it was this good of a toy store,” principal scientist Alan Stern said at a news conference. He marveled: “I think the whole system is amazing. … The Pluto system IS something wonderful.”

As a tribute to Pluto’s discoverer, Stern and his team named the bright heart-shaped area on the surface of Pluto the Tombaugh Reggio. American astronomer Clyde Tombaugh spied the frozen, faraway world on the edge of the solar system in 1930.

Thanks to New Horizons, scientists now know Pluto is a bit bigger than thought, with a diameter of 1,473 miles, but still just two-thirds the size of Earth’s moon. And it is most certainly not frozen in time.

The zoom-in of Pluto, showing an approximately 150-mile swath of the dwarf planet, reveals a mountain range about 11,000 feet high and tens of miles wide. Scientists said the peaks – seemingly pushed up from Pluto’s subterranean bed of ice – appeared to be a mere 100 million years old. Pluto itself is 4.5 billion years old.

“Who would have supposed that there were ice mountains?” project scientist Hal Weaver said. “It’s just blowing my mind.”

John Spencer, like Stern a scientist at the Southwest Research Institute, called it “just astonishing” that the first close-up picture of Pluto didn’t have a single impact crater. Stern said the findings suggesting a geologically active interior are going to “send a lot of geophysicists back to the drawing boards.”

“It could be a game-changer” in how scientists look at other frozen worlds in the Kuiper Belt on the fringes of our solar system, Spencer said. Charon, too, has a surprisingly youthful look and could be undergoing geologic activity.

“We’ve tended to think of these midsize worlds … as probably candy-coated lumps of ice,” Spencer said. “This means they could be equally diverse and be equally amazing if we ever get a spacecraft out there to see them close up.”

The heat that appears to be shaping Pluto may be coming from the decay of radioactive material normally found in planetary bodies, the scientists said. Or it could be coming from energy released by the gradual freezing of an underground ocean.

As for Charon, which is about half the size of Pluto, its canyons look to be 3 miles to 6 miles deep and are part of a cluster of troughs and cliffs stretching 600 miles, or about twice the length of the Grand Canyon, scientists said.

The Charon photo was taken Monday. The Pluto picture was shot just 1 1/2 hours before the spacecraft’s moment of closest approach. New Horizons swept to within 7,700 miles of Pluto during its flyby. It is now 1 million miles beyond it.

Up until this week, the best pictures of Pluto were taken by the Hubble Space Telescope, and they were blurry, pixelated images.

Scientists promised even better pictures for the next news briefing on Friday. Johns Hopkins University’s Applied Physics Laboratory is in charge of the $720 million mission.

To put the cost of the mission into perspective, WCCO-TV noted that it’s less than the $1 billion NFL Vikings stadium.

Ron Schmidt, a NASA ambassador, responded to questions about spending that kind of money in spac.e

“People are talking about why are you going to spend money in space?” he said, according to WCCO. “Well actually, we’re not spending it in space. It’s all spent down here. Jobs, people, building the probes. People designing them, that’s all in our economy just like anything else.”
 

Peña

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FairShake said:
I'm curious and asking not as a challenge but what technological breakthroughs are directly related to the space program?

As for living on another planet I doubt there is "life" in the way we recognize it on any other planet in space so I don't think we could live anywhere else. There are parts of Earth we cannot live on afterall!

I feel like the barriers to living on Mars seem too high and will be for a long time. And that's our BEST possibility let alone hot planets or gas giants.

From what I've seen so far, the only place that we could maybe be able to live on would be one of Jupiters moons since there is water on there and is similar to Earth's structure. Other plants and moons have too much carbon dioxide, methane gas, no oxygen, too much force or too hot to sustain life.





Mike32ct said:
Absolutely. Plus, considering the BILLIONS that our government wastes, I think $700M to get to Pluto was a BARGAIN.

It was a bargain, plus it helped to create many jobs and help the economy.
 
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