Personal Development - A Counter Intuitive Approach

[ENIGMA16]

I've been around here for a bit and I've read a lot on theory and all of that kind of stuff but I haven't really dove into applying it, mostly out of fear and a myriad of other excuses. Anyways, I've noticed that a lot of the problems that we have and a lot of the solutions offered are actually counter intuitive. For example, the idea that one's failure with women is a cause of their fear when in reality it is a result (see Pook's article titled "Kill that Desperation" on p.79 of the Book of Pook for a better explanation), and that in order to get women one must change their mindset. This all true, but it's just a very seemingly backwards way of going about it (I don't want to analyze this in detail; I just want to present this as an example).

On the one hand: "Your desperation is repelling women! You need to stop being so desperate!"
On the other hand, in order to get over it you have to actually pursue women.

This to me hasn't worked, because I feel like I have become more "desperate" as I have tried to apply this stuff to get over my fears (not desperate, really, but the fact that I had active goals in pursuing women is what I'm referring to).

One of my biggest issues is that I always feel like I'm a second class person, and that when people see me or run into me they're happy to see me but don't actively pursue a friendship with me (i.e. nobody ever calls me to do anything). So I think that's caused a lot of desperation in my life.

Anyways, school started for me last week, and ever since I've also been working a ton of hours, so my schedule has been simply too busy to worry about that. In addition to that, I've decided to stop drinking for a month with the diet that I am on, which will probably further have an effect on my social life.

And the funny thing is that over the past week and a half I've felt better about myself than I have in a while. By not seeing any friends I'm learning to accept myself more and be happy alone and with doing things by myself, so I'm planning on pretty much not hanging out with anyone for the whole month and see how it goes. I'm going to also figure out some kind of goal for approaches throughout this month because I feel like this would be a good time to do it.

So I'm hoping that by not being social I can learn to be content in myself and when I start socializing again I will be more social. I'm also considering limiting or completely boycotting my Xbox and the internet (outside of work) during this time period.

I don't know, I thought it was an interesting concept and I hope it works, and I just thought you all might be interested in hearing about it, because I've never really read anywhere about trying something like this.

Thoughts?

 

[alwayslead8821]

I see where you are coming from, it is just the way you are going about it. When he is telling you to kill your desperation all he is really talking about is projecting self confidence. He wants you to go out and approach girls so you can control the approach anxiety. To me it sounds like you haven't gained control of your thoughts whenever you are approaching. I always gave of a desperate vibe before I found this site, when I met new people I would just try to hard to please them and make all the conversation.

Since I started I am continuously trying to master my thoughts. The more that I love myself, the more I have noticed getting girls becoming easier. Some different ways I have gone about this is to make a list of all my negatives and then wrote down how to solve them. Make a list of every positive thing about me, then short term and long term goals. Start paying attention to when you are thinking negative thoughts and get rid of them. Replace them with stuff on your positive list, or things like I am a great catch and etc.

That concept is always talked about by the greats and I barely see it talked about on the discussion board (I think that it should be on there more). Instead of people talking about like what should I say, what is my problem, why doesn’t she like me etc. That should be step 1.

 

[horaholic]

What you're doing is a pretty common concept, actually. I dont know the exact quote, but the Buddhist principle of enlightenment is to free yourself of desire. Be content with yourself. At RSD, the concept is is to not be 'outcome dependent.' Which means, chase as much pvssy as you want, but not let it have any effect on your emotions, or personal happiness. Of course, this is easier said than done.

This concept is also the foundation of Tolle's 'The Power of Now.' In a nutshell, the book is about living ONLY in the present moment, and not being affected by the past (guilt, anger, fear, loss, habits, etc.) or worry about the future, and things we cant control. We are ALWAYS in the present moment, and right now, each and every one of us is perfectly fine. We are sitting in a chair comfortably, reading a computer screen, and NOTHING ELSE MATTERS.

Why waste any time being mad about something that has absolutely no effect on us at the present moment? I have serious issues with my roomates, but why should I be mad about it right now? My choice is either completely accept it, or change my situation right now. Sitting here stewing about stuff is not only pointless, but harmful to our mental wellbeing. All negativity in us is caused by not living in the moment.

Would there be any REAL difference right now if we got laid yesterday, or two years ago? No. It would all be in our head, but physically, there would be no difference whatsoever. And, since most of us at this very moment have no chance of having sex right now, the whole desire of it should not be in our head at all.

Obviously, this doesnt mean we shouldnt be improving ourselves, or getting off our asses to be productive, but dont or worry stress about anything that cant or wont be changed this instant.

With this way of thinking, there is no desperation, neediness, fear, worry, stress, anger, jealousy, hatred, or any other negative emotion. And, guess what? Being negativity free, is very attractive.

I suggest everyone read that book, or do whatever else they believe in to be totally in the present moment.

 

[Dante420]

if you find yourself desperate at times I call that going through the cycle, you just gotta act like your still doing it and making things pop, you don't gotta lie

 

[ENIGMA16]

horaholic, that is actually what I had in the back of my mind when I realized and developed this idea.

As for the OP, it's somewhat in the works and I've somewhat abandoned it as well. I'm going on vacation over spring break to Alabama in 5 weeks, and so I'm just laying low until then. EFFORT has been super helpful and developed an absolutely insane workout/diet plan that I'm focusing 100% on sticking to so that I can cut down and look my best for vacation (I've always wanted to cut down but spring break is giving me the best excuse and a great challenge to do it in 5 weeks). Also I know that when I'm down there I'm going to be on another level because whenever I travel I can act (or rather, I am) a complete DJ because I know I'll never see any of them again (now only if I could apply that to my whole life!). So I'm hoping to cut down, get the body that I want, go on vacation and game the **** out of a ton of girls, and then come back rejuvinated and motivated to apply all of that to my normal life.

So in the next 5 weeks I'm focusing entirely on school, work and working out. I'm maxing out my hours (I work part time so I can only work up to 40 hours a week) as well, so during the week I really don't have any time as it is to do anything. During the weekend I'm probably just going to lay low and chill at home because I know if I go out I'm going to be talked into drinking or eating which would ruin my diet plans. So I'll probably sit at home and read a lot, play some guitar which I've been neglecting, and of course get some video games in.

Plus this way when my friends see me next they'll be like "DAMN!!!!" haha

 

[squirrels]

horaholic, that is actually what I had in the back of my mind when I realized and developed this idea.

As for the OP, it's somewhat in the works and I've somewhat abandoned it as well. I'm going on vacation over spring break to Alabama in 5 weeks, and so I'm just laying low until then. EFFORT has been super helpful and developed an absolutely insane workout/diet plan that I'm focusing 100% on sticking to so that I can cut down and look my best for vacation (I've always wanted to cut down but spring break is giving me the best excuse and a great challenge to do it in 5 weeks). Also I know that when I'm down there I'm going to be on another level because whenever I travel I can act (or rather, I am) a complete DJ because I know I'll never see any of them again (now only if I could apply that to my whole life!). So I'm hoping to cut down, get the body that I want, go on vacation and game the **** out of a ton of girls, and then come back rejuvinated and motivated to apply all of that to my normal life.

So in the next 5 weeks I'm focusing entirely on school, work and working out. I'm maxing out my hours (I work part time so I can only work up to 40 hours a week) as well, so during the week I really don't have any time as it is to do anything. During the weekend I'm probably just going to lay low and chill at home because I know if I go out I'm going to be talked into drinking or eating which would ruin my diet plans. So I'll probably sit at home and read a lot, play some guitar which I've been neglecting, and of course get some video games in.

Plus this way when my friends see me next they'll be like "DAMN!!!!" haha

It always feels like two different things when you sit and reflect on living and when you actually decide to DO something. The latter feels so much more ALIVE.

To quote Morpheus, "There's a difference between KNOWING the path...and WALKING the path."

Or to quote Mikey McDermott, "You see all the angles, you just don't have the stones to play one."

Based on what you're posting, you may have just taken the first step into a larger world. Good luck.

 

[ENIGMA16]

Thanks for the positive words.

This has actually been going pretty well; I've been completely consumed by work/school/working out, and I've been seeing really good results. I've also earned a bunch of money because I've cut my spending basically down to the essentials and since I'm not going out I'm saving money there, too.

I haven't really done anything with anybody in two or three weeks. Like I said, all my free time has been reading, playing video games, searching for a job (which I have been really able to ramp up) and playing guitar/listening to music.

I've found that many of the social anxieties I felt before I started this have gone away either completely or almost entirely. To basically recap, here is a free write I did for my counselor around mid January that sums up my issues and anxieties (sorry for the length):

I feel like nobody takes me seriously or considers me as they would somebody else. I feel like people treat me with a distant respect but lack of interest in really getting to know me. I feel likeable but unloveable, as if people are sort of happy to see me when they do but don't really care about me otherwise. I feel like people treat me secondarily, as someone's friend or brother or coworker rather than as a person in my own right. I feel like I don't belong anywhere I go. I feel like nobody takes the initiative in contacting me ever, and it has been this way for as long as I can remember. I also catch myself sometimes even presuming that someone doesn't like me even if they've never met me or have only met me a few times.

I think that this has been happening so long that I have come to believe it, and so it becomes a continuously perpetuating, self-fulfilling prophecy. Once I believe it then I simply assume nobody is interested in getting to know me and so I don't try, which reaffirms my presumptions and on it goes ad infinitum .

I think my perfectionism is both a cause and an effect of all of this; while I've always been a perfectionist to some extent, I think that these presumptions and attitudes have exacerbated it exponentially. My perfectionism is caused by a desire to prove myself to others by being the best or perfect, while it protects me by keeping myself from actually opening up and putting any original thoughts or feelings that I have that could be called into question out in the open.

Then again, I'm not sure how much sense that really makes, but I'm completely positive that it has something to do with keeping me from proving right everything I've written above, which I feel a vague sense of dread about confronting due to the possibility that it could be true.

Since I've started this, I've simply not cared about others' opinions of me, really. Because I haven't really been in contact with other people I've given myself room to realize that others' opinions don't really matter, because my life is what I want it to be and if I can be as happy as I am completely alone then their opinions become entirely secondary.

Also, I've found that I am making eye contact, smiling and greeting people naturally; before I kind of had to force myself to do it but now I do it without even thinking about it. I can tell, too, how this has had an effect on girls, because I can see it in their eyes. I've had a quite a few girls that I did this to naturally respond with a look that basically told me I probably could have easily gotten their number if I wanted. I could see the attraction in a simple glance.

So I'm planning on going forward with continuing this until spring break, and after break I'm planning on slowly introducing myself back into social life; based on how spring break goes I am going to set a daily/weekly goal for cold approaches as well, and right now am considering doing one approach per day after I get back from break to keep the momentum going so that I don't backslide and ruin all my progress.

Will update as necessary.

EDIT: I've also recently noticed that I output a lot of negativity; it's not that I'm a negative person (at least I don't think I am) but I think that by outputting all that negativity I'm able to feel positive. So I'm working on this, as well.

 

[alwayslead8821]

Wow man you seem to be going through the exact stuff that I'm going through... I have also just recently started working so much and Barely have time to socialize and its doing nothing but good. It keeps me level headed around places were I use to be freeking out...

What you said about projecting negativity also is something that I have to fix.. Last weekend when I went out 3 or 4 people asked me if I was pissed of... I wasn't but I still had no idea why! Then thinking about it later I just wasn't smiling enough and I guess I naturally look like an a$s..

All I have been trying to do is be smiling moore and more... If you fix this let me know man and good luck with spring break and sh!te

 

[ENIGMA16]

Not too much to update on; I've had some ups and downs for the past few weeks, had a lot of stress regarding school and finding a job but overall I've been pretty good. I'd say that I'm at the point where I'd be satisfied doing this whole non-social thing indefinitely, so I think I've overcome a lot of social issues that I was having where I felt dependent upon others. I'm feeling a lot more confident about myself and finding myself worrying less and less about certain things that I used to worry about, so I'm learning to accept myself more.

I was going to wait until after I got back from vacation to start getting this process moving but I think I'm just going to do it now: I'm just going to do the whole "Hello" thing until I'm used to it.

As for working out, here are some progress photos (one and two). I haven't really lost any "weight," but what body fat I have lost I have definitely replaced with muscle. The image on the left was taken on Sunday (February 28th) while the right image was taken on Tuesday February 9th (two days before I started this program). So that's about 17 days' progress in those photos. I still have three weeks until I leave for vacation so hopefully I can keep up this progress, or even increase it, and I should have a sixpack by then! Also planning on trimming down on the body hair (I can't shave it because I get mad ingrown hairs, thanks to my Persian heritage ) and I'm also going to be starting tanning next week so I'm not all pale with a nasty farmer's tan.

Trying to focus on my hygiene more, too; showering immediately after getting home from the gym and washing my face twice a day. I'm really pumped about how far I'm going to get in the next three weeks! Nobody can really tell so I haven't gotten many comments (simply because I haven't hung out with anyone and also because you can't really tell fat loss unless it's a significant amount, which it hasn't been...yet) but I'm completely confident that by the time I hit vacation I'll be looking better than I ever have.

My Theory of this Development Process
So I started out a complete AFC and was awakened both by this site and by the content and theory contained within. I was incredibly eager to apply all that I "learned" through reading this site and Pook, etc... However, this desire to attempt to apply theory mixed with my desperation made me actually less successful in the long run (not that I didn't develop in this time - I overcame a ton of social barriers I earlier could not - but I could tell that I was doing worse with women because I was overthinking/overtheorizing and approaching with an outcome-oriented mindset).

I then realized that I had to take some time off of life to work on myself and try to minimize that desperation as much as possible, and also to internalize a lot of that theory and have it develop into a part of my subconscious so that instead of acting on it I will actually be it. And after all, being a DJ isn't about saying certain things or acting a certain way, but rather it is a state of being.

So right now I'm attempting to deal with my social issues while internalizing that, and move slowly from where I am currently at back into a social life while also hitting the game hard and not losing any momentum on developing my social skills with women and breaking down those barriers. After vacation I'm going to start doing approaches regularly, and will put my reports in this thread. I'm hoping in two months time (i.e. from now, not from when I started) to be completely transformed.

An Abstract, Or Perhaps A Guide
1. AFC - This is you in your original, naive self. This is your starting point.
2. Theory - Consume all of the theory you can; read as much of it as you can, as many times as you can. Completely consume yourself in DJ theory and philosophy.
3. Self-Awareness/Development - Take some time away from your normal life. Only perpetuate the essentials (i.e. work/school). Remove yourself from social life as much as possible; take this time to reflect on yourself as a person and a human being, to identify your problems, and to start working on them internally. Pick a hobby or two that you enjoy, as well, to focus on during this time. If you feel it is necessary, make some guidelines (like not watching TV or playing video games for this time period). The whole purpose of this is to focus on yourself entirely and to let all unnecessary outside forces and connections be severed from your existence.

Also take time to think about all of the DJ theory/philosophy that you have read. Do not read any of it during this time; just think about it, and how it related to your life in the past and how it will (or how you want it to) in the future.

4. Reintroduction - Bring back what you left behind, but do it gradually and do it with a very conscious mind to make sure that you are not also reintroducing old habits and old anxieties. In stage 3 you should have learned that anything that you are reintroducing in stage 4 is completely unnecessary and if something is going to bring back those anxieties then you should cease it immediately until you can figure out how to resolve the problem.

Also during this stage you should have a plan of action on how you are going to overcome your social anxieties regarding women; i.e. a plan of how you are going to apply the theory/philosophy that you have learned and internalized. You should hit the ground running with this and get as much experience as possible as fast as you can.

Anyways, I obviously can't comment on how stage 4 will turn out, as I haven't reached it yet, or if this whole system will work, but I am incredibly confident that it will turn out well and welcome others to try this approach.

Will update as necessary.

BTW sorry about the long posts. This thread is sort of serving as my development journal and so I'm kind of just stream of consciousness writing.

 

[ENIGMA16]

Today I was walking through the university library with two girls that I was working on a project with, and we were looking for a table to sit at, and we passed this table with this girl studying. She looked up, I smiled at her, and she gave me this look and smiled as if she would've spread her legs right there if I asked her. I didn't even talk to her and just kept going about my day, but it felt awesome. I've had this happen to me a handful of times over the past two weeks, and it's seriously the best ego booster! And all it took was me actually connecting with people through just smiling at them instead of acting like everyone around me doesn't exist (like what everyone else does).

Kind of a lame update, but it was so awesome I couldn't resist.

 

[ENIGMA16]

Had a skin caliper body fat percentage test done yesterday and determined that I'm down to 10.7% body fat! I have an appointment same time next Monday to see how much I'll lose.

Also went tanning for the first time in years yesterday. Went for 10 minutes and ended up burning a little but not too bad.

This diet is starting to get to me but the progress keeps driving me forward. Less than two weeks and I'm done with this.

I think this is the best I've looked/felt in a long time.

 

[ENIGMA16]

Had another skinfold test done today which determined that I'm at 8% body fat, which is around where I want to be; I want to have the sixpack, which might take me getting down to 7 or even 6, but we'll see how that goes. I'm just blown away by my progress so far.

Also have gone tanning and I look great; I'm not going to be too dark (because that's gross) but I'll be just right.

Switched over to a more manageable diet as well, that will probably even give me better results. Have another skinfold test on Friday so hopefully I'll be down to around 7 by then.

 

[lokariototal]

My man, Please, I highly recommend that you go to www.attractioninstitute.org and read the book "Seduction Community Sucks" or just any of their articles. This site is totally different from all the things u' have probably seen before. Give it a chance

 

[Joecool]

On the one hand: "Your desperation is repelling women! You need to stop being so desperate!"
On the other hand, in order to get over it you have to actually pursue women.

...

Thoughts?

This is good. I like how you´re seeing things from different perspectives. May I offer a perspective for you to consider?

Yes, desperation is killing your chances, cause you radiate neediness, and act needy. Women are very perceptive and they absolutely know when a guy wants anything from them. It´s like the salesman. You just know they´re putting on a front cause you can smell the agenda. Your answer to the problem is to pursue more? Isn´t that actually contributing to your neediness rather than removing it?

Consider this. Whenever we have girlfriends, the women seem to just come out of the woodwork and now they all want us. But we are in a relationship and were not looking to hook up with anyone. We just want to go out, talk to people and have fun. In essence were indifferent to getting women. Were not desperate and we don´t behave needy. We don´t want anything from them and we don´t care about getting them.

A while back, I moved to a new city. No friends and no girls. I really wanted to have a good social life again. It led to desperation and neediness. After a few months of this, I got sic of it and said, you know what f*uck it. It´s not working, so I might as well go out just to have a good time and have fun by myself. If I meet the right people, they´ll invite me. I stopped caring about getting something from anyone. This indifference was the solution for me. The indifference, happy content with life - attitude, and trusting that I will naturally attract the right people into my life lead to women pursuing me, asking for my phone number, flirting with me, meeting cool guys, getting invited to parties etc.

Being attached to something you don´t have leads to desperation, frustration and pain. For me, I see the best result when giving up the attachment and just become indifferent, stop caring about an outcome or a result. But still take the right actions, meaning going out, talking to people wanting only on having a good time and enjoying life.

Of course you migt think, yeah, thats good for you, but I can´t just stop caring and start be indifferent. I say thats a belief you hold. You´ve told yourself that story so many times, you think it´s true. But it´s like propaganda. It´s only true for you cause you´ve bought into it. Make up a new story and convince yourself it´s true by repeating it and imagine it was true over and over again. It can take time, but less time than becoming a master pua.

 

[ENIGMA16]

If you read this thread you'd notice that that's my whole point.

 

[ENIGMA16]

Well I was able to get down to 9% body fat at my lowest point, which was about a week before vacation, and then I slipped on the dieting/working out/not drinking and was at 9.7% by the time I left. Hah and I gained a lot of it back in that week, too.

Vacation wasn't as great as I thought it would be. I hardly met any new people due to the weather and just the place we went, and the people I went with I already knew for the most part so it wasn't like I was able to break out like I was hoping to. So yeah, not much to say about that, unfortunately, aside from the fact that it was a pretty big disappointment in that respect.

I also think that I took too much time to myself. Looking back, I'd say at about the 3 week mark I was at my peak in terms of how I felt about myself and others, and after that I kind of started to become more introverted and actually "scared" of other people, for a lack of a better word. I also feel like regarding doing approaches I no longer have any idea whatsoever on where to start with it, so I kind of feel like I'm back at square one in some way.

However, regarding how I feel about myself, I'm feeling much better. I'm finding myself happier more often and more content with myself and my place in the world. I've been reading a lot of personal development books (not about pick-up), and have managed to successfully get to the point where I don't let things that I can't control get to me anymore. I think that's a big step in the right direction. I'm also starting to read a lot more about the human mind and how it works, and so I've been reading a bunch of Fromm and Kant, and I'm planning on digging into some Buddhist works once I'm done with these. I'm really pleased with this aspect of where I've gotten so far.

Because of my setbacks I've decided instead of going right for approaches to just do the boot camp myself. I have a feeling that once I get back into the swing of things I'll be able to push myself more than the boot camp requires and so at that point I might just drop it and set an approach quota, but we'll see.

http://www.jbspencer.com/djb/Downloads/djbc.pdf

I'm going to start today. I have a feeling I'm going to need a lot of support and sh!t talking from you guys to help me out with this.

 

[ENIGMA16]

Meh only got 4 "hi's" in today. I'm sticking strictly to strangers, as I think counting cashiers or people in the service industry or people that are relatively related to your everyday life (coworkers you've never met, for example) are cheating.

It seems like I'll make eye contact with someone and they'll just look away, so I don't even have a chance to say hello, because that all happens before they're in talking range.

Oh well, will keep going at it tomorrow.

 

[ENIGMA16]

Only got up to 10 yesterday, right now I'm at 11. Man, I'm really gonna have to step this up. Everyone always looks away, it's really f*cking annoying. I have a feeling I'm going to get to the last day and I'll have to f*cking tear through 20. Oh well, I'm f*cking determined to get through it this time.

Tonight I'm going out to the bar so I'm going to set a goal of talking to 5 people that I don't know, while being sober (or at least not drunk).

 

[ENIGMA16]

Only at 20 right now, but it's getting a lot easier. I've just been saying f*ck it and saying hello to people even if they're not looking at me, so I'm hoping to get the other 30 knocked out in the next day or two.