Nice Guy Finished First... (reverse field report)

[ketostix]

Iqqi you're missing the point. The point is, besides that you're clueless about the subject like all women are, being "nice" (assuming he is, I don't) and being ugly might get you ugly girls and girls that aren't of much quality, and no offense but I don't think you're quality and doubt you're attractive, but being nice and ugly won't get you attractive women. So he got laid with you and he has some ugly girls, how does that prove your theory being "nice" works?

 

[MikeYikes122]

Comedian Doug Stanhope would say you've done the world the greatest favor you could possibly do, iqqi. According to him, fvcking someone uglier than you is one of the greatest things a person can do for society. It starts a karmic food chain. That guy will be so happy he won't mind nailing some ugly-ass chic, and the ugly-ass chick will fvck some guy with rotted teeth and seven-days growth worth of facial hair because she will be so content from having gotten a$$ from a guy who is much better looking than her. She won't mind lowering her standards. The world will be a much happier place now. Nice work.

Anyway, to respond to your original post, I think there are two different kinds of AFCs. There are the extreme cases who live in their parents basements, play online video games and go years at a time without getting laid or having female contact. But on the other hand, there are the AFCs who are nice guys who live relatively normal lives. They have a steady group of friends and a social circle that might include women they've met through friends or at the workplace. These kinds of guys have social skills, but they just lack the confidence to approach women and seldom are able to take home women for one-night stands. Hence the "frustration" portion of the term AFC. These guys can get a$$, but women have to get a chance to know them first. They don't have the ability to put their personalities on display I guess you could say.

I have a feeling your ugly hook-up guy falls into the latter category.

I'm curious, do you think you would have hooked up with this guy if you'd just met him that night? If he was some complete stranger who was buying girls drinks and doing things like you mentioned, would you have had a different opinion of him?

Nice AFC guys can get a$$, it's just usually from women who are in their social circles.

 

[ketostix]

As an aside: I just noticed my last post was my 1000th. I think I deserve a bottle of SoSuave champagne or something :cheer:. Wow, I came back a few weeks ago and had like 300 and some post and now do I really have a 1000?

 

[iqqi]

What is a nice guy?

I have always thought nice meant being courtieous, polite, thoughtful, and you know, NICE attributes such as those.

I found this online when doing a google search for nice: Click here, and I pretty much agree with all of that.

Somehow nice has gotten the bad rep as also meaning a total push over, fake, insincere, wimp, ect. For those of you operating on that definiton, it is not the one I am operating on. And I completely disagree with the implications. I think somewhere in time, someone with a small vocabulary decided to bunch together a mess of adjectives, and combine them into one. Unfortunately, a lot of those adjectives did not even go together. Some of them were even complete contrasts!

I don't know how or why, but it is not the truth. Being nice just to get something is not nice, it is manipulative. Letting someone walk all over you is not nice, it is showing a total lack of respect for yourself.

I can see the difference between being nice and being fake, can you?

I think a lot of the problem here, is that people think the actual NICE things they think of doing automatically = afc. This is not the truth. Being a good person, makes you a good person, point blank.

The problem with confusing the nice traits with the uglier ones is, a lot of men here seem to think they are intertwined.

That if you listen to a woman's problems, you also let her take advantage of you.

That if you hold open a door for a woman, you will probably let her walk over you as well.

That if you stop to help a woman who is having car troubles, you most likely don't get laid.

None of those things are related!

And contrary to popular belief here on this board, men who know the real meaning of nice, and who also have the good intelligence to respect themselves, are considered sexy and rare. AKA a great catch.

I am glad I know nice when I see it. Otherwise I might think a guy who was rude and nasty was the thing to go for.

 

[Charm]

I agree that being a nice guy has been given a bad rap and it is mostly true in OUR culture. This is because women have "awarded" guys who are complete pushovers the title of "nice guy" and guys who act outside of their true nature in order to supplicate and kiss-butt to earn her favor "nice guys."

Then they dump these guys on the street when someone else comes along who provides more and gives them more hand-me-outs.

Can nice guy mean other things? Sure. It unfortunately has been tainted.

 

[aliasguy]

I have always thought nice meant being courtieous, polite, thoughtful, and you know, NICE attributes such as those.

I found this online when doing a google search for nice: Click here, and I pretty much agree with all of that.

Somehow nice has gotten the bad rep as also meaning a total push over, fake, insincere, wimp, ect. For those of you operating on that definiton, it is not the one I am operating on. And I completely disagree with the implications. I think somewhere in time, someone with a small vocabulary decided to bunch together a mess of adjectives, and combine them into one. Unfortunately, a lot of those adjectives did not even go together. Some of them were even complete contrasts!

I don't know how or why, but it is not the truth. Being nice just to get something is not nice, it is manipulative. Letting someone walk all over you is not nice, it is showing a total lack of respect for yourself.

I can see the difference between being nice and being fake, can you?

I think a lot of the problem here, is that people think the actual NICE things they think of doing automatically = afc. This is not the truth. Being a good person, makes you a good person, point blank.

The problem with confusing the nice traits with the uglier ones is, a lot of men here seem to think they are intertwined.

That if you listen to a woman's problems, you also let her take advantage of you.

That if you hold open a door for a woman, you will probably let her walk over you as well.

That if you stop to help a woman who is having car troubles, you most likely don't get laid.

None of those things are related!

And contrary to popular belief here on this board, men who know the real meaning of nice, and who also have the good intelligence to respect themselves, are considered sexy and rare. AKA a great catch.

I am glad I know nice when I see it. Otherwise I might think a guy who was rude and nasty was the thing to go for.

-
--
Oh, c'mon. You know the difference between "nice" and a "nice guy."
Gimme a break. "Nice" is pleasant, polite, cordial, and non-offensive. "Nice" can be AFC or DJ. "Nice guy" is code for AFC.

Don't play dumb, Iqqi.
-
-

 

[iqqi]

Iqqi you're missing the point. The point is, besides that you're clueless about the subject like all women are, being "nice" (assuming he is, I don't) and being ugly might get you ugly girls and girls that aren't of much quality, and no offense but I don't think you're quality and doubt you're attractive, but being nice and ugly won't get you attractive women. So he got laid with you and he has some ugly girls, how does that prove your theory being "nice" works?

Look, I appreciate you trying to weigh in, but you are too caught up in thinking 1. ugly guys can only get ugly women, and . the iq is ugly.

Both are completely false, so there for since you can't see anything but the glaringly untrue ideas you place in front of you, I don't see any reason for you to keep posting on this thread. Thank you tons, buh bye.

And congrats to your 1000th post, it is pretty easy to reach when you are constantly hounding my a$$. :kick:

 

[ketostix]

The problem with confusing the nice traits with the uglier ones is, a lot of men here seem to think they are intertwined.

That if you listen to a woman's problems, you also let her take advantage of you.

That if you hold open a door for a woman, you will probably let her walk over you as well.

That if you stop to help a woman who is having car troubles, you most likely don't get laid.

None of those things are related!

Except these things are related. Women do try to take advantage and don't appreciate manners, good guesture and a guy being nice. If they did ever guy would always be doing those things and getting something out of it, but they're not.

And remember, your one example of a model of a nice guy gets ugly women. Don't forget that or gloss over it.

 

[iqqi]

Anyway, to respond to your original post, I think there are two different kinds of AFCs. There are the extreme cases who live in their parents basements, play online video games and go years at a time without getting laid or having female contact. But on the other hand, there are the AFCs who are nice guys who live relatively normal lives. They have a steady group of friends and a social circle that might include women they've met through friends or at the workplace. These kinds of guys have social skills, but they just lack the confidence to approach women and seldom are able to take home women for one-night stands. Hence the "frustration" portion of the term AFC. These guys can get a$$, but women have to get a chance to know them first. They don't have the ability to put their personalities on display I guess you could say.

I have a feeling your ugly hook-up guy falls into the latter category.

I would say that he fits into your latter category more so than the first category. I say that because I think he may not be confident enough to approach many hot women. As a matter of fact I am pretty sure most women approach him, or he meets them through dancing.

He is a pretty shy guy, and from what I have heard from his sis and from what I have witnessed, he fits shy to a T. I think he is shy around people he doesn't know, but has shown that he does indeed have a ton of confidence in himself, and can be ****y once he gets to know you.

As a matter of fact, now that I think about it, he is kind of shy, sure, but I have seen him size up a decent looking chic and approach. I think his shyness is more a personal thing, and nothing to do with his game. He got game.

By the way, I also believe nice guys can have game.

I'm curious, do you think you would have hooked up with this guy if you'd just met him that night? If he was some complete stranger who was buying girls drinks and doing things like you mentioned, would you have had a different opinion of him?

Nice AFC guys can get a$$, it's just usually from women who are in their social circles.

I would most likely have given him my number, as I don't really hook up with people that I just met. I have been more risque this past year than normal.

However, if I recall, it didn't take me long to notice that he was a very sexy person. I think the night I met him my first thought was that he was nowhere near as hot as his twin sister, and my second thought was damn he moves as good though!

 

[ketostix]

Both are completely false, so there for since you can't see anything but the glaringly untrue ideas you place in front of you, I don't see any reason for you to keep posting on this thread. Thank you tons, buh bye.

Oh I see, they're both false simply by your fiat. And when you're totally defeated in argument, just tell the guy the conversation is over and cut and run. Typical female tactics.

 

[iqqi]

I agree that being a nice guy has been given a bad rap and it is mostly true in OUR culture. This is because women have "awarded" guys who are complete pushovers the title of "nice guy" and guys who act outside of their true nature in order to supplicate and kiss-butt to earn her favor "nice guys."

Then they dump these guys on the street when someone else comes along who provides more and gives them more hand-me-outs.

Can nice guy mean other things? Sure. It unfortunately has been tainted.

I agree with a lot of what you have said. I noticed the part where you said guys who act outside of their true nature to supplicate and kiss butt... what exactly do you mean by that? What true nature are you referring to? I have an idea, but I don't want to assume your meaning.

I would also like to mention that women who don't appreciate good traits in men, and seem to go for men of lesser quality, are not exactly the type of women you should be going for anyways. It says a lot about her own character.

 

[iqqi]

Oh I see, they're both false simply by your fiat. And when you're totally defeated in argument, just tell the guy the conversation is over and cut and run. Typical female tactics.

I am sorry Keto, but why would I keep arguing with you over something I know is untrue (ugly men can't get attractive women)? And the other being your opinion based on absolutely nothing?

I'd rather not bog my thread down with pointless bickering. For anyone else who agrees with you without any other thought about those two points, then you were right a few posts ago, Case Shut. Or whatever you said. Now, buh bye!

 

[ketostix]

I am sorry Keto, but why would I keep arguing with you over something I know is untrue (ugly men can't get attractive women)? And the other being your opinion based on absolutely nothing?

I'd rather not bog my thread down with pointless bickering. For anyone else who agrees with you without any other thought about those two points, then you were right a few posts ago, Case Shut. Or whatever you said. Now, buh bye!

Well your thread is pointless because you offer no credible evidence to prove your claims or to disprove someone else's assertion that: 1. He's probably not that ugly. 2. He's probably not really a "nice" guy 3. He probably never gets attractive girls, so what's the difference? This thead isn't going to help anyone. You want to challenge most beliefs on here yet you don't want to be scrutinize for it. I wish you would go buh bye!

 

[ThunderMaverick]

Well I hope he's proud of himself! He earned it!

 

[jonwon]

This is such a personal detail, and I can already here the ifs, buts, & the ands...

But hopefully this will help one or two of you out.

Last night I slept with someone ugly.

That's right, fellow ugly sosuavers. UGLY. Not like swamp man, or anything... but not initially attractive to me at all!

I was turned on by his good deeds. He did some pretty AFC things (according to the definition here on this forum), and it landed me in his bed, and all of my friends adore him. OK, well the one friend who I talked about this with, adores him. But she is usually the harshest critic.

He has helped me out a lot after I ended my LTR, by helping me move out (and about, as I moved around a bit right after that), helping me get a job (didn't need one, but all of a sudden had too much time on my hands), and other random niceties, such as just getting me out of the house when I needed to get some air. We haven't really talked in awhile, as he has his own life, and we aren't best friends or anything like that.

Last night, I needed a ride somewhere because my car wouldn't start. I was supposed to meet some friends at... well, a big party... and it was in a town 30 minutes away. Nice Guy lives there. So I thought, what the hell, lets see what Nice Guy is doing. If he comes with me, I can introduce him to all these chicks I am about to meet up with.

When I called he sounded tired, but I did the girly thing which is "pleeease" and "I got all dressed up and now my car won't start..." and used some bribes "my friends are REAAALLY hot...", and after a half hour of deliberation on his part, he came and got me. His original plan was just to drop me off at the party, because I was going to sleep over at my girl's house, who also lives in that city. But I talked him into coming back, so he went home, got ready, and showed up towards the end.

He did some pretty AFC things at the party (at one point he even gave chick he used to date a $20 to go by a drink and go away ). But he also did some DJish things, like he didn't think twice about the AFC things he did - he didn't care what anyone thinks, because he doesn't spend any time on any internet boards trying to figure out if he should be a nice guy or an as$hole. He came and grabbed me up to dance at the end and when the party shut down...

I agreed to go with him, and not my girl.

Some points to make, hopefully to answer any sosuave questions that I can foresee:

1. No he didn't buy me a drink, lol. But he would've if I needed one. As a matter of fact, his ex he gave money to bought me one, lol. With his money! (As she proceeded to tell me how p!ssed she was).

2. I have always had a little crush on him, because of the way he holds himself (see... looks DON'T matter). He is quiet, funny, humble, sweet, and moral. And sexy...

3. DJ traits you'd all recognize: He can dance, really well.

4. If he is such a nice guy, iqqi, why are you just NOW giving him the time of day???
A. He doesn't lack women... which is a turn off. He actually has a "harem" (as me and friends who know him joke) of mostly ugly women.

B. He is a good friend of mine's brother. I might not answer my phone for a few months because of this! You aren't supposed to sleep with your good friends' siblings! That is like against the Code. This actually gives me extremely conflicted feelings!

C. He used to work for me and my ex. (Long story).

5. Yes, there were other men there who were totally hot, and who wanted to get to know the iq. (Options, in other words.)


So the point I have hoped to get across, is that not only is Nice Guy a nice guy, but he is also pretty damned unattractive (physically aka superficially). And he still got the girl. And the girl always had a small secret crush on him.

Discuss.

So the guy:

Goes out of his way to pick you up, shows up at the end of the night, entertains you, amongst other things.

And what did you do?

You simply allowed him the ‘privilege’ of your *****.

Then you come to a forum and label him ugly?

Charming.

No wonder women have the entitlement syndrome.

I guess ‘you’ did him a favour uh?

The way I see it, you did nothing, nothing at all, nothing worth more then fuc*ing you then wiping my knob on the curtains, oh and I think you got played.

Even if he was 'ugly' still does not detract from the fact you sound like an entitlement princess, girls like you would tossed out after being used, the only thing you have to offer is 'he got me into his bed', nice dam nice indeed.


What value did 'you' bring to that apart from your puss*, because i dont see anything at all.

The reason guys like the one you talked about exist, hence have a harem, is because women have no value other then there puss*, well most average western women anyway.

 

[iqqi]

So the guy:

Goes out of his way to pick you up, shows up at the end of the night, entertains you, amongst other things.

And what did you do?

You simply allowed him the ‘privilege’ of your *****.

Interesting way of looking at it. I know I didn't view it that way, and I am pretty sure he didn't either. I would say it was more of a two people being attracted to each other type of situation, not a reward for good behaviour situation. As a matter of fact I do believe I stated that someone looking for "rewards" for "good behavior" was a turn off. BTW, another reason it seem clear you are just trolling my thread, is "entertains you", ? Where did I once say he entertained me, lol!?

Then you come to a forum and label him ugly?

Charming.

Yeah, well, he isn't that attractive to the majority. It is what it is. Besides part of the thread is trying to show an example of the fact that looks aren't everything. Personality tends to overrule looks.

If I was really "heartless" I'd post a pic and let everyone decide. However I put a lot of personal info out there with the assumption that my identity is private, as is his.

No wonder women have the entitlement syndrome.

I guess ‘you’ did him a favour uh?

Still not really following you here... seems like you are just trying to take jabs. However I will "reward" you with the knowledge that you have offended me here. Especially as I have always valued my friendship with this particular guy, and I see him as more than some guy who I rewarded with the pvssy. I do believe I mentioned that I have always had a small crush on him... (I keep repeating myself...)

The way I see it, you did nothing, nothing at all, nothing worth more then fuc*ing you then wiping my knob on the curtains, oh and I think you got played.

Interesting. Just kidding. Typical of you to say, actually. You really come across as hateful here, btw. Lol, I am not really too sure what you are so offended about!

Even if he was 'ugly' still does not detract from the fact you sound like an entitlement princess, girls like you would tossed out after being used, the only thing you have to offer is 'he got me into his bed', nice dam nice indeed.

You seem extremely opposed to the fact I have labeled someone as nice. What do you have against nice guys? Where do you get that I sound "entitled"? I don't think I ever expressed once that I expected anything from him. If anything, I think what I did was list his personality traits that I found attractive.

Jesus christ!

What value did 'you' bring to that apart from your puss*, because i dont see anything at all.

What are you looking for, lol??? This seems pretty simple to me. Girl attracted to guy. Girl sleeps with guy.

I mean to get deeper into your "question", I am pretty sure he found "some value." As did I. But our ideas of what is valuable are considerably different than yours, I'd bet. Considering how vindictive and insulting you come across here.

The reason guys like the one you talked about exist, hence have a harem, is because women have no value other then there puss*, well most average western women anyway.

Well I disagree with this. Can't really argue with your beliefs, though. I am glad I don't think as negatively as you do!

I normally wouldn't bother to respond to someone who seemed to only be trying to take jabs without really offering any solid base for discussion or debate, however I knew going into this that there would be some huge haters, so with that I decided to try and engage even the most cynical in conversation. I have no problem answering any questions, or considering another viewpoint, but if you are going to just insult me or troll my thread without anything constructive, you are wasting your own time.

Also, if your only point of debate has to do with Probably's and Probably Not's, the same applies for you. You are just going to have to assume that I am telling the truth the best I know it to be. If you just can't do that... you are obviously just wasting you own time. I will not be posting pics, as I value my anonymity on this site. However there are a couple of people who know me in real life on this board, and if I was some kind of troll I am sure they would have said so! I have been around since 03, and I have even hung out with a sosuaver in the past.

There is my mini rant of the hour.

 

[ketostix]

Iqqi I understand wanting privacy and not wanting to post your pic or the guys. But where are these people that met you that can vouch for you being an attractive girl? You still haven't established that this guy's ugly and you're attractive. You still haven't established that he's a nice guy. I think he's seems phony and has some experience with women. And it seems like he works his azz off to get average to ugly girls. You're just one girl and maybe you like slightly shy guys who aren't that attractive because maybe you don't feel you have enough value for attractive guys. I don't know, but you haven't established your case that being nice, even if your ugly will get a guy attractive girls.

Also you do come acrossed as thinking guys should and do something for you for nothing, and then you decide which one you reward. and as far as I can tell that reward is primarily just pvssy. You do come across with an entitlement attitude.

 

[jonwon]

Interesting way of looking at it. I know I didn't view it that way, and I am pretty sure he didn't either. I would say it was more of a two people being attracted to each other type of situation, not a reward for good behaviour situation. As a matter of fact I do believe I stated that someone looking for "rewards" for "good behavior" was a turn off. BTW, another reason it seem clear you are just trolling my thread, is "entertains you", ? Where did I once say he entertained me, lol!?




Yeah, well, he isn't that attractive to the majority. It is what it is. Besides part of the thread is trying to show an example of the fact that looks aren't everything. Personality tends to overrule looks.

If I was really "heartless" I'd post a pic and let everyone decide. However I put a lot of personal info out there with the assumption that my identity is private, as is his.




Still not really following you here... seems like you are just trying to take jabs. However I will "reward" you with the knowledge that you have offended me here. Especially as I have always valued my friendship with this particular guy, and I see him as more than some guy who I rewarded with the pvssy. I do believe I mentioned that I have always had a small crush on him... (I keep repeating myself...)




Interesting. Just kidding. Typical of you to say, actually. You really come across as hateful here, btw. Lol, I am not really too sure what you are so offended about!




You seem extremely opposed to the fact I have labeled someone as nice. What do you have against nice guys? Where do you get that I sound "entitled"? I don't think I ever expressed once that I expected anything from him. If anything, I think what I did was list his personality traits that I found attractive.

Jesus christ!



What are you looking for, lol??? This seems pretty simple to me. Girl attracted to guy. Girl sleeps with guy.

I mean to get deeper into your "question", I am pretty sure he found "some value." As did I. But our ideas of what is valuable are considerably different than yours, I'd bet. Considering how vindictive and insulting you come across here.




Well I disagree with this. Can't really argue with your beliefs, though. I am glad I don't think as negatively as you do!

I normally wouldn't bother to respond to someone who seemed to only be trying to take jabs without really offering any solid base for discussion or debate, however I knew going into this that there would be some huge haters, so with that I decided to try and engage even the most cynical in conversation. I have no problem answering any questions, or considering another viewpoint, but if you are going to just insult me or troll my thread without anything constructive, you are wasting your own time.

Also, if your only point of debate has to do with Probably's and Probably Not's, the same applies for you. You are just going to have to assume that I am telling the truth the best I know it to be. If you just can't do that... you are obviously just wasting you own time. I will not be posting pics, as I value my anonymity on this site. However there are a couple of people who know me in real life on this board, and if I was some kind of troll I am sure they would have said so! I have been around since 03, and I have even hung out with a sosuaver in the past.

There is my mini rant of the hour.

Actually Iqqi i dont dislike you, or hate you, if anything your simply normal and average.

 

[iqqi]

Iqqi I understand wanting privacy and not wanting to post your pic or the guys. But where are these people that met you that can vouch for you being an attractive girl? You still haven't established that this guy's ugly and you're attractive. You still haven't established that he's a nice guy. I think he's seems phony and has some experience with women. And it seems like he works his azz off to get average to ugly girls. You're just one girl and maybe you like slightly shy guys who aren't that attractive because maybe you don't feel you have enough value for attractive guys. I don't know, but you haven't established your case that being nice, even if your ugly will get a guy attractive girls.

Well, Keto, I am surprised at your tone. I completely understand what you are saying when you come across this way. Sometimes I do wish sosuavers I know would speak up, lol, but on the other hand I know why they do not. Most of the guys I became really cool with do not post here anymore. I would feel silly running to them and saying "hey, could you go on sosuave and tell them guys that I'm not ugly... oh, and that I am a girl?."

One reason I'd feel silly asking them is because they would then in turn ask me why I care what some silly gameless dude on sosuave thinks.

So if what I look like is really that important to what I say in your opinion, you really would just have to go by what I have said. And seeing as I really do believe that looks are highly subjective, I usually just try to describe what kind of reactions I get when I go out. I also try to be brutally honest. Remember, I have been labeled abrasive. Lol.

Yes, I am attracted to shy guys. I think on another thread, there was some disagreement over what shy is. I am attracted to quiet men who do not act boisterous or arrogant beyond reason. I like men who seem to have something on their mind.

Yes, attractive men are attracted to me. But I value personality traits more than looks. I have let a lot of attractive men go in the past few months because they didn't have much else going on for them.

In this particular guys case, I don't know why you think he seems phony. And I don't know what made you think he works his azz off for any kind of woman, as I stated that I am pretty sure most women approach him. This is because he has more going for him than his basic looks (which in my opinion are subpar, and others agree). He is friendly, and has a sexy vibe. I am sure I am not the only one who notices. This transends his looks.

All the favors he did for me were classic Nice Guy moves that would get a forum member cyber b!tch slapped here.

One major point I am trying to get across here is that being nice isn't a bad thing, and it won't bar you from the getting booty club. I feel like a lot of people confuse nice traits with AFC traits, and Manipulator traits. Like doing something nice with a hidden agenda. Or allowing someone to take advantage of you.

Also you do come acrossed as thinking guys should and do something for you for nothing, and then you decide which one you reward. and as far as I can tell that reward is primarily just pvssy. You do come across with an entitlement attitude.

I don't know where you get this from. I do think that IF a guy does something nice, it shouldn't be with a hidden agenda. I also don't view sex as a reward for anything. I don't think I was entitled to anything, nor do I see where I ever said anything of the sort.

Some of you are seeing a entitled chic rewarding some dude with pvssy. I don't get it. I don't see what I said I was entitled to, and I don't see how I came across as rewarding him.

What I see is me being attracted to someone, and it leading somewhere.

I will also say here, that of course my views are not representative of all women. Some women will try to take advantage of a guy like this. Like the girl he used to date coming up to him and demanding a drink. He handled it well, though. I was alarmed, like "don't let her do that to you!" And he just laughed it off, like "she usually is the one buying. so it is no big deal. however the fact she just did that is why i don't hang out with her anymore."

You should be cautious in who you choose to pursue seriously.

 

[iqqi]

I am glad I posted this here. It is helping me to deal with some of my conflicted feelings. Having to stick up for him, and describe him, is helping me to see what I really think about him. I didn't realize how much I looked up to him.