Morals (attn: Maverick)

[logic1]

This is like politics, There is not a winner in this debate. No right or wrong. Just what people view in their heads.

You will always have the people who dont have morals using the defense of dont push your beliefs on me ( morality police ). And it also works the other way for the people with morals saying dont push your anti moral agenda this way. About like religion.

Theres no winner??

I would like to ask if people with low morals, would you do these type of things in front of the world to see. No hiding?? You would not care because you have no morals. What are morals..... good question??

Example... Tell the husband you slept with his wife or I siphoned x amount of dollars from an individual or business or I went behind your back to get a promotion by slandering you. Would you tell these people what you did?

 

[DonGorgon]

I haven't read all the responses..and have a lot to say about morals. But to me, what it all comes down to is...

KARMA.

Karma = Guilt + Fear

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

...I guess my point is I don't see how having sex behind someone's back is a bad thing provided that you never let them find out. I don't see how it determines a person's success in life....

I was just walking by this thread and heard this. The question you should ask yourself isn't whether or not you need morals, rather whose morals should you follow.

Think of morality as something such like religion. There are doctrines and beliefs from one religion to another and morality could be the same from person to person. The complexity comes in when there is a large group of people who hold similar beliefs and feel that their way is the right way and that they need to convert the masses.

The most common one are those who believe "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." It sounds good if we were all the same but we're not and so in comes the contention. Did I mention morality is much like a religion?

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Karma = Guilt + Fear

:yes:

 

[DonGorgon]

I was just walking by this thread and heard this. The question you should ask yourself isn't whether or not you need morals, rather whose morals should you follow.

Think of morality as something such like religion. There are doctrines and beliefs from one religion to another and morality could be the same from person to person. The complexity comes in when there is a large group of people who hold similar beliefs and feel that their way is the right way and that they need to convert the masses.

The most common one are those who believe "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." It sounds good if we were all the same but we're not and so in comes the contention. Did I mention morality is much like a religion?

many people have remorse for "wrong" actions only if they get caught and have to pay for it.

 

[Mavrick]

Your success DOES NOT depend on your ethics or morality. You shouldn't be moral or ethical because I say so. You DON'T have to do anything anyone tells you, and that's what's fantastic about life. I'm putting it out there because there is a such thing, and it's beneficial to oneself and others. I believe that a person should stay true to themselves first above all and then everyone else.

You can do what you want, MacAvoy. You can call me out. You can be mean to me when I speak my mind, but it really doesn't matter. I'm not the morality police, but there is a reason that it is there. It protects your heart and others.

Guess what will happen when that guy hooks up with that chump's wife, and he never finds out. She'll leave and a marriage will be broken. Guess what else. She'll probably get what she wanted from the new guy and move on once it doesn't feel good anymore. Then she'll want her husband back, and he will have moved on. So, why have all of this drama when you can have LESS drama with a single woman? Why get tangled up? I think it's disrespectful to yourself to get tangled up in a triangle such as that.

MacAvoy, you're an intelligent man, and I have no place to tell you right from wrong or what to do with yourself, but I have every right to through out that aspect of life. It's something people can talk about. I didn't put him in a choke hold and tell him it's the way it is. I just threw it out there, and if I can, I will.

Ciao

 

[MacAvoy]

Ok now that I've gotten some feedback, here's my take (stolen [since I don't have morals] from Kenia Morales)

Morals! This is an interesting subject; I know you must be thinking Macavoy would you define morals. I believe that morals are rules that society itself has established and follows. Morals values are indeed very useful. They can help a person distinguish right from wrong or negative behavior that can hurt others whether emotionally or physically. Some examples of these rules are “is not okay to cheat on the husband or wife” or “not taking the life of another person” etc.

However, moral values are sometimes used to judge others. I believe that we have all gone thru situations where our actions or decisions are seen as immoral to others or for society in general. The problem with morals is that it differs from person to person and not only that, moral values may change for the convenience or necessity of a person at any given time. What do I mean by this? Let’s say a hard working family man believes stealing is wrong. But, one day he loses his job and has no money to buy them food. No one would loan him money or give him food. So, he makes the hard decision to steal food from the grocery store in order to feed his family. Another person that learns about his behaviors thinks how immoral or wrongful the man’s actions are. While the once hard working man that now steals is concerned with feeding his children and believe that his reason for stealing is justifiable.

We all have our beliefs and values based on our own background, culture, experiences, etc. And in my opinion this is okay. However, let’s not be too fast or harsh when judging others. Imagine what it would be like to walk down their spine and if you cannot picture it, it is okay! But let’s be respectful and understanding with one another.

 

[TheHumanist]

There are many many ways to view and argue the need for morality. Unfortunately I only have a few minutes and to write a post that would describe and list them will probably take a good hour or even more. So I will post what I can now before this thread explodes even more.


Now the first thing I want to say is what you are saying goes under moral relativism or the "sophist" which are those that says there is no morality. What good is there to have ethics and morals? On SoSusuave, it seems pretty common for the people here to throw around there is no use and those who follow it are just socially brainwashed and guided by fear. I detest when I read those posts. I would say more if I have the time on that matter.


Now for the various viewpoints, it have been argued again and again timelessly and tirelessly. For example, Plato's The Republic is essential an entire attempt to end moral relativism once and for all (failing miserbly) through he arguments and deduction (starting from the standard Socratic method and later to using a "city-state" which is a country which is by his deduction similar to the nature of a person (it is in a way if you think enough) to infer to what type of person would be optimal.

From a Humanist viewpoint, morality exist for we are all human and all in this together. We are in the here and now and therefore we follow a life that hurt others in its path. We only have a finite life.

From a societal viewpoint, if we don't follow it, society cannot function. Everyone will too distrustful to each other to ever cooperate.

From a Evolutionary viewpoint (someone said before but I say what you guys said earlier is so wrong, evolution does not choose anyone, the best fit is not the fastest, strongest, smartest, or even most adaptable, but the one best fit to the environment), by following the strictest view of evolution morality doesn't have much of a pernament place for evolution does not have a place for considering others. Evolution is about figuring the best adaption for the environemtn. Morality does have an effect of evolution in some ways that is not sure. I would write a lot more if I could right now on this.

From a scientific standpoint, I would perscribe to look into game theory (wikpedia that and look up Prisoner's dillema while you're there too). It looks into the hypothetical situation of how to win the best. Looking at Prisoner's dillema, it can address how to win the most in the end. Should the players (or we in life) cooperate? Or is it better to betray? Is being an Angel the best startegy (trust everyone and always cooperate)? A devil (always betray)? Or something in the middle? Well so far, simulations have found palvo (strategy to stick to what works until it doesn't) and tic-for-tac (treat me right, I'll reciprocate, if not, I will not in return) have work the best against a world full of all types of strategies (or people).

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

many people have remorse for "wrong" actions only if they get caught and have to pay for it.

Yeah, but I'd challenge that their remorse wasn't primarily from their actions most of the time, it's because that they got caught. This does tie into the oddity of some men doing something that they are remorseful for YET got away with and feel compelled to come clean about. It seldom helps their situation and often worsens it. I guess guilt is the price to pay when you don't abide by or have your own personal morality.

 

[MacAvoy]

Well so far, simulations have found palvo (strategy to stick to what works until it doesn't) and tic-for-tac (treat me right, I'll reciprocate, if not, I will not in return) have work the best against a world full of all types of strategies (or people).

FYI its tit for tat.

 

[Mavrick]

When it comes down to something like necessity to sustain life, I will not debate it. But if it boils down to whether a man should help someone perfectly fine without him to cheat on her husband, I don't condone it. This guy obviously doesn't have any other options and is running on lust and/or a low self worth. What he needs to do is be exposed to options in his life. There are too many beautiful, single women to get mixed up with.

 

[MacAvoy]

Thats your choice. My only point was he's obviously decided to try to do it, focussing on why its wrong will not discourage. IMO you came off as a fear mongering zealot by trying to make him think that every man out there is a killer. However if you encouraged him to go after the many other beautiful single women, your more likely to have success.

My mother taught me that its better to bake with sugar than salt.

 

[Mavrick]

Thats your choice. My only point was he's obviously decided to try to do it, focussing on why its wrong will not discourage. IMO you came off as a fear mongering zealot by trying to make him think that every man out there is a killer. However if you encouraged him to go after the many other beautiful single women, your more likely to have success.

My mother taught me that its better to bake with sugar than salt.

Touche! I understand what you mean here. I did focus on the negatives of his situation.

Next time I'll focus on the positive side and tell him what he could have that's more glorious. You are exactly right, and I did make a mistake.

 

[SilverSonnet]

Whoa young man. First of all, there is always debate. First off, this isn't the place for religion but more importantly, your taking your religion as gospel, as the only truth.

Have you seen any scientific proof that everybody view's adultery as wrong? I guess I don't exist then.

On another note, I don't need to believe in some notion to be a good person. I also don't need karma to protect me.

Woah, hold on. I'm not taking a religious view. Damn, my post cam out wrong mate.
I'm trying to explain why people view adultery as wrong, because christianity's laws state that adultery is a sin, and that's been integrated into society.
I didn't mean that the way it is written.:crazy:
I dont mean ALL, either. I mean that the majority of people view it as morally wrong. But if you dont have morals, your good to go.

 

[DonGorgon]

This does tie into the oddity of some men doing something that they are remorseful for YET got away with and feel compelled to come clean about. It seldom helps their situation and often worsens it. I guess guilt is the price to pay when you don't abide by or have your own personal morality.

Have you noticed that most women dont have that "oddity"? most are strong enough or cold enough or smart enough to take their dark secretes to the grave...

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

FYI its tit for tat.

Ah, if only it were as simple as giving someone a breath mint... But tits are nice none the less, not tattered ones though.....

 

[MacAvoy]

I didn't mean that the way it is written.:crazy:

So now your talking like a women, saying one thing and meaning something else.


touche, just teasin bud

I dont mean ALL, either. I mean that the majority of people view it as morally wrong. But if you dont have morals, your good to go.

Next time you mean majority, then say majority not everybody.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Have you noticed that most women dont have that "oddity"? most are strong enough or cold enough or smart enough to take their dark secretes to the grave...

Hell, women are smart enough to keep their mouths shut for their own self interest. Men tend to be less enlightened especially when it comes to relationships.

 

[SilverSonnet]

So now your talking like a women, saying one thing and meaning something else.


touche, just teasin bud




Next time you mean majority, then say majority not everybody.

Lol, sorry Bud.

 

[tick37]

Doh!