Modern marriage doesn't work...what is the alternative?

[Matt Rogers]

I've read the nomarriage.com thread and I agree with the sentiments. Modern marriage in a western society has little to recommend it. With a one in two divorce rate men face the prospect of alienation from their children and financial ruin. Even the marriages that do "work" usually involve some degree of women controlling men and henpecking them to death.

But what is the alternative?

Yes a man who looks after his health can find single, attractive women to date well into his 40s. And if he so chooses he can have a series of long term relationships (like Clooney!) staying with a girl until she demands a ring.

But after that is gets difficult. The pool of available women dries up and you find you have less and less in common with 20 somethings who just want to party all the time. Above that age group you just have married women, divorcees, single mothers and scarce few single, attractive women.

If you do not have children who will look after you in old age and in sickness?
Who will visit you when you are old and grey?

While playing the field is very attractive while you are still young and pumping with testosterone, eventually I imagine most men want to settle down and have someone to come home to, cook for them, and share their life with.

For this reason I understand why so many people despite the risks still choose to get married....they want companionship, someone to grow old with and yes children.

But as modern marriage is so flawed what alternative is there?

 

[BobMo']

A 50/50 game, such as is modern marriage in the West, is one where it's essentially an even bet whether or not you'll win, or not. Winning therefore depends on skill. You can significantly up your chance of a win (sounds like a win for you is a happily-ever-after marriage - nothing wrong with that) by being skillful - in your choice of a woman, in your handling of her ****, and, most importantly, in how YOU handle YOURSELF, as the inevitable tests, moods, and other normal female flotsom and jetsam comes up.

 

[Warrior74]

I think the more important question is asking yourself if you are marriage material. I know that I am not. I can't give a relationship the kind of attention and dedication needed, especially from the women I've dated. They always want more time than I have to give, I am spending my days working at my job and my nights working on my buisness...its just not feasible. My ex always threw it in my face that I work to much, but she was more than happy to spend money at every opportunity. I'd rather just have some FBs or girlfriends and spend time with my daughter and make my money. Marriage is not an option for me at this stage of life. Women these days need more than I can give.

 

[jophil28]

I was writing an article for a local newspaper about the life of single mature men, I called a downtown upscale dating agency to discuss mature women's expectations of potential husbands .
THe female 'consultant' with whom I spoke first tried to recruit me as a client( I guess that she is paid to do that) I declined,however she then disclosed some interesting info.
1. This agency has FIVE times as many women as men on their books who are over 50.
2. Women want marriage , men not so much.
3. Women clients are told not to have sex on the first date because the guy will not call back.

I asked the consultant also whether these woman realized that the laws of supply and demand applies to dating as well as commerce, and that a scarce commodity ( men) can raise its price.
If there is an abundance of buyers(women) for this commodity , then these same buyers need to lower their expectations and also be prepared to pay the sellers higher price, or miss out.
She replied with a somewhat haughty tone and countered with," We advise our ladies never to lower their standards."
I asked whether she realized that with a 5 to 1 ratio, the guys have all the market power and can pick and choose . She stiffened up again and replied that their "ladies" would never accept that belief, "They would be horrified if someone told them that!".
I replied with a mildly mocking tone , " Let me try ..."

She rambled on some more (sounded like she was reading from the training manual) and it became obvious that she and her company were in business to service women's needs. Men were a merely the grease to keep the wheels turning.

 

[jophil28]

Dupe post

 

[scrouds]

I FOUND A SECOND BENEFIT TO GETTING MARRIED (for a man)

Cheaper insurance rates. Save an extra $5-200 a year by marrying!
(The first one was having your kids and their parents all have the same last name)

 

[Colossus]

You make some valid points, Matt.

The problem with the total anti-marriage stance is that it isnt time-proof. I think if you have the right mindset and focus, not marrying can serve a man well into his 40's. But who wants to spend his old age alone? You think you'll be pulling chicks when you're 65? How well do you think not marrying is going to serve you when you are past your 'youth' and the rest of your birth family is dead?

I agree with you, Matt, that the reason why many men still choose to get married, despite the odds, is because they want to have some kind of legacy when they are old. Not to say marriage is a total guarantee of that, but it is very natural and very human to want to have children and grandchildren to succeed you, carry on your family, and make sure you aren't left behind when you're old and grey.

Plus, it is only human to want to have someone to share life with. When a man is young--and these days even up into middle-age---he can enjoy the benefits of being single and just enjoying the women who flow in and out of his life. But as you said, there comes a point when you arent going to be pulling 25 year-olds anymore, and the only women your age are married, divorced with children, or, well, just plain old.

Take my father, for example. He is 54, and his second wife left him several years ago. He has since met a very attractive, successful woman in her early forties. She is a renowned veterinary surgeon and really has her head set on straight. But, she also has two adolescent girls. So I asked him one day, "dad, you say you want to retire by the time you are 60, so why the hell are you considering marrying a woman with two teen girls??" His response was that it's double-edged. He could probably find a woman with no children in her late thirties or early forties, but then there is the problem of her not understanding what it is to be a parent. My dad has myself and my younger sister, whom he still supports to a degree. It is very hard for someone who has never had children to understand why a 54 year-old man is still financially helping his grown daughter, and even his son when he was in college. The woman would eventually become jealous that his money and attention are still going to his children. In fact, they always will to a point. When you're a parent you are a parent for life. Even though someday I will likely have to care for my father in his old age, he is still my father and I'm still his son, so his estate, life insurance, pension, etc will go to my sister and I. A woman without children would find it very difficult to accept this.
So, he reasoned, it is better in the long run--despite the complications--to marry a woman who has kids of her own, because both people understand what it is to have grown kids. He also said that women who have never had children tend to be either selfish, a little weird, or wistful at the thought of what a family would be like.

I'm not sure I totally agree with his reasoning, but then again I'm not 54. I CAN understand why he would want to be married at his age. Even though he has my sister and I, it's not like we are there with him all the time. I live across the country and she lives in another part of the state. He told me it's not like he wants to get married for the sake of marriage--his last wife basically left with no explanation--but when you meet a really great woman at his age that's not something you take lightly. My dad is very successful, but it's not like he's out at da clubz every weekend scoring tail. He lives alone, his children are gone, and he wants someone he can share life with.

So, to sum up my views on the marriage thing, I think being single is not only beneficial but ideal for most men in their 20's, 30's, even 40's. But, and I cant speak for the rest of SS, I don't particularly want to be a bachelor when I'm my father's age, and it would be nice to have a kid or two when Ive reached the point when I'm ready. All I know is that it's not now, and probably wont be for a while.

 

[Warrior74]

Colossus

you make some very valid points. I enjoy dating women with kids as I have a child myself. We understand what it is to be parents. And I could date a woman who has adult children later in life. It's dating women who are still raising children that is a problem, you are never their father, and as I have that father mentality, I tend to be the boss and expect things to be done, its hard to do that with other people's kids. Too many issues to deal with.

By the time I'm 40 I think I will have my business to a sustainable level, where I have my evenings and weekends free and my daughter will be a teenager, so I could see being in something serious by then, but as for now. I can't see it.

i think post like these tend to focus on teh shortcomings of the modern woman and less on if marriage is even right for the individual male at this point in his life.

I think the african proverb sums it up nicely for men and marriage. First you build the hut, then you get the wife. If it takes until 40 to build up the life you want, be single, then worry about the state of the modern woman when you actually start looking for a wife, until then, pump and dump and don't even mentally masturbate over it. I think those who are doing so are really looking for a wife right now on a subconscious level. If your not ready for one anyway, why worry about it? Go have fun!

 

[Ballie]

Originally posted by Jophill

I asked whether she realized that with a 5 to 1 ratio, the guys have all the market power and can pick and choose

That is the key. I have found this out for myself. It is rare to find a man in his 50's who has got his act together and is not a fat p1sscat. I can pick up just about any woman I want - proved that last year! But I am in a LTR with a wonderfull woman and there is no desire (on both sides) to get married at this stage.

I have been married - got the kids etc. But they are doing their own thing and only contact me when they need something (normally money) - I pay for their education and draw the line at that. Will they be there when I'm old and grey? Don't know but I like to think so.

Some guys don't like to live alone - so to get married is an option for them. I actually enjoy being alone and seeing my GF on weekends only works for both of us.

 

[Pickupmilitia]

I think the general consensus now a days is that marriage is a good foundation for raising children. And based on the thread responses it seems that's the reason most of you are a proponent of it when the time is right.

As far as when to get married I see 2 trains of thoughts among my friends. My single 30 + friends say it isn't necessary until you are ready to have that lifestyle and settle down. They also want to be financially stable.

My 20 + friends who are married and have kids say that they its not good to get married too late and have kids. They make a bold point about being too old to play and enjoy your children. It kind of makes sense though... I mean it will be tough playing basketball or most sports for that matter with your teenager when you are in your 50's....

 

[muscleman]

How do you figure it'll be hard to play sports with your kids in your 50s? If you stay in shape, no such thing.

Randy Couture - 46 years old and still fighting top guys in the UFC. With all of the beneficial health opportunities available to us these days (education, supplements, exercise options, medical treatment, etc) it's very possible to be in great shape in your 50s, provided you put in the time and effort.

 

[Pickupmilitia]

How do you figure it'll be hard to play sports with your kids in your 50s? If you stay in shape, no such thing.

Randy Couture - 46 years old and still fighting top guys in the UFC. With all of the beneficial health opportunities available to us these days (education, supplements, exercise options, medical treatment, etc) it's very possible to be in great shape in your 50s, provided you put in the time and effort.

First of all Randy Couture is special athelete. And yes he does still fight top guys in the UFC but I would check out the Brock Lesnar fight if I were you. That shows the difference between age gaps. I agree we can stay in shape and live good but it's preposterous to compare us to professional atheletes. Their regimen and access to suppliments will invariably be greater than your regular Joe Smoe in society.

Now that I stated that think about how a 50 year old regular dad would really do against his 16 year old in a 1 on 1 game of basketball.

 

[Colossus]

My 20 + friends who are married and have kids say that they its not good to get married too late and have kids. They make a bold point about being too old to play and enjoy your children. It kind of makes sense though... I mean it will be tough playing basketball or most sports for that matter with your teenager when you are in your 50's....

I've heard the same argument, and it has some validity, but not enough to base an entire decision on.

Keep in mind these people already have kids and need to have reasons that validate their path over another's.

 

[MaddXMan]

Keeping a hardcore anti marriage/anti children mindset is great! And just look at the benefits, this 58 yo guy is an example for us all (his last name is awesome too!):

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/tayside_and_central/7314643.stm


And who needs kids to visit when you are old and gray, you could just get a bunch of cats!

 

[lookyoung]

I think the general consensus now a days is that marriage is a good foundation for raising children. And based on the thread responses it seems that's the reason most of you are a proponent of it when the time is right.

As far as when to get married I see 2 trains of thoughts among my friends. My single 30 + friends say it isn't necessary until you are ready to have that lifestyle and settle down. They also want to be financially stable.

My 20 + friends who are married and have kids say that they its not good to get married too late and have kids. They make a bold point about being too old to play and enjoy your children. It kind of makes sense though... I mean it will be tough playing basketball or most sports for that matter with your teenager when you are in your 50's....

That is exactly what I hear from alot of people. I was talking to a guy who had his first kid at 38 and is 63 now. Was married twice in his life. He said the best age for a guy to get married is 26-27 and have a kid shortly thereafter. He said that being 40 years older than your kid is a big difference.

I hear this from alot of people that got married older. I have a kid on the way and It would be interesting to see how I feel 10 years from now.

 

[lookyoung]

How do you figure it'll be hard to play sports with your kids in your 50s? If you stay in shape, no such thing.

Randy Couture - 46 years old and still fighting top guys in the UFC. With all of the beneficial health opportunities available to us these days (education, supplements, exercise options, medical treatment, etc) it's very possible to be in great shape in your 50s, provided you put in the time and effort.

Yes you could be in shape when your older. But when you hit 35 you start to slow down its pretty much proven. I workout 5-6 days a week (bjj, weights). I notice the guys in there 30's have a little less juice than the guys in there 20's.

You can't compare professional athletes because they do steroids that are not tested by the UFC such as Testesterone and HGH. Randy coutoure more than likely does these steroids so he is able to fool mother nature.

Did you see Randy vs big nog?


I am 33 and have been very active my whole life and I noticed that I slowed down a little. My reaction time is a milisecond slower. The best way to describe it is when I talked too an old friend who is 33 and plays ball 3 times a week for the last 20 years.

Lookyoung: Hey bro you feel your age at all.
Friend: Yeah I have some lines on my forhead and under my eyes.
Lookyoung" NO I mean on the court.
Friend. Yes. He says when I was younger I would see a looseball and grab it now I am a second too slow at times.

We are both 33 and work full time. If we were full time athletes than I am sure we would have stayed younger by a few years. But age is a motherfuuukkkker and its impossible to fool mother nature.

 

[Unbridled_Phoenix]

Don't be scared. You came into this world alone, and you will die alone. What happens in between is up to you.

 

[davewe]

Marrying in "old age"

I am disappointed though not surprised by some of the expressed attitudes in this thread. Yes, I believe that marriage is valuable if you are going to have kids but that's it.

I am particularly appalled by the attitudes towards middle aged and older guys needing a wife.

Reasons that have been expressed:

1. Someone to take care of you when you are older: What makes you think that the woman who denied you sex, hated to cook and clean, wanted you to pay all the bills, wanted you to do the child care while she pursued her own interests, is now going to "take care of you" in your old age? It's a fantasy.

2. Because at 65 you're going to have diffiuculty pulling HBs for sex: And you think that the 65 year old you're married to is going to give you the sex you need? That is assuming you still want to have sex with her.

3. Companionship in your twilight years: Again, what makes you think that the woman who criticized your every move at 30 or 40 is now going to become the wonderfully supportive companion at 65.

Oh, and to those who expressed the nonsense about 50-somethings playing sports with their teenage children, I am 56 and have a 13 and a 9 year old. I keep up with them fine. They want a father to be with them more than a professional athlete. My father was young (21) when I was born but never once played sports with me in his life. He had little interest in playing sports and less interest in having kids. In short, if you want to engage with your kids, you'll find a way even if you can't climb Everest.

Me? I date - either a bit younger or with a younger attitude. And certainly I don't date anyone looking for their next ex-husband. If I ever get married again, it will be on my terms, not because I need any of the things listed above.

 

[muscleman]

It's good to hear feedback from someone who's been through it all. I brought up Randy as the first example that popped into my head. Obviously he's not indicative of the general population, but it proves a point: that 50s doesn't mean some "old dude". You can be very much in shape and still do almost all of what you could in your 30s and 40s. But yes, it takes consistency over the years in exercise, rest, and diet - it's an entire lifestyle. If you spend half your week drinking and eating chips while watching whatever on tv, no amount of exercise is going to help.

Also, don't confuse juice with some magic pill. The guys who do take steroids work out just as hard and have to go through the exact same steps as those who don't. You don't just grow muscles out of nowhere. Steroids help you "get more" - but they don't make it any easier.

Anyway, I agree with dave about this companionship bit - I have a hard time believing that someone you spent your life with (unless it was mostly happy go lucky) will all of a sudden do a 360 and "take care of you" if they haven't done it all along.

 

[jophil28]

But age is a motherfuuukkkker and its impossible to fool mother nature.

Aww, quit whining. How do you think I feel? :moon: :crackup: