Hello Friend,

If this is your first visit to SoSuave, I would advise you to START HERE.

It will be the most efficient use of your time.

And you will learn everything you need to know to become a huge success with women.

Thank you for visiting and have a great day!

Insider trading

TooColdUlrick

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oh yeah, c-do...don't get confused about what we say about "the nice guy" vs "the player" vs "the DJ" vs "the jerk" things. this is far too complicated even for a man to get straight, let alone a woman. believe me, that's what this whole board is about. 95% of the posts here are garbage.

it's about (or should be) a man's inner game. again, way too complicated. since you're already here, i would suggest Pook's and Anti-Dump's posts in the Bible, for some background.

the nice guy: Fraser (supplicates to get women)
the player: Colin Ferril (sp?) (only wants to fukk chicks)
the jerk: Tommy Lee (smacks his wife around AND only wants to fukk chicks AND DOES)
the DJ: Bond...James Bond (no explanation needed)

i think that's fairly accurate. it seems that the man in question is the last one.
 

c-do

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A few things for the Australian Street Pimp - whatever that is??? Not mentioning that he is a doctor has nothing to do with playing games. His status in no way intimidates me the way it does you. Luckily, you probably do not work as an interpreter for anyone as you have taken what I've said and twisted it to supply yourself with something to jack off to tonight.

Ulrick - perhaps the whole thing about him being attracted to me is really all about misunderstanding his interactions, but if it is so - it is by design. You do not escort a woman places, touch her, stop to speak to her, wave to her whenever you see her, have extended eye contact with her when there are a lot of people around, and ask her questions about herself, etc., etc., etc. if you do not like her - or at least want her to think that you do.

As far as trying to trick him - let me say this. Is it really a trick if you are telling someone that there's no need to say they are going to call if that is not their intention? I have never said nor claimed that I wasn't hoping that he would call. But I am really not MAD about the fact that he didn't. You can't be MAD at someone if they are not mutually attracted to you? Well, maybe you guys get mad at a girl if she doesn't like you... The thing that bothered me was that he was beginning to make it clear upon every interaction that he was so busy and then would say that he was going to call. No one was asking. All I was doing was saying, "look - cut the crap, if you're not going to call, that's fine. Just stop saying that you're going to." (Not my exact words but you get the picture.) Now, if this was not someone that I constantly had contact with, I would not have felt the need to say anything about that. But when I'm seeing you constantly and you are constantly telling me the same thing, I feel compelled to bring up the obvious. A trick??

As for the advice that I should constantly be around him and tell him how great he is, I appreciate the input but don't agree with it at all. I don't even really know the guy outside of short bursts of conversation. The whole goal in this thing from my standpoint was to get to know him outside of work.

I really did not expect the amount of hate that I'm feeling from you guys. This mob mentality is quite interesting. So let me understand this, are you a real player on this site when you try to attack a woman and a chump if you offer solid advice and insight?

cece
 

c-do

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BonHomme,

The vibe I get from him? I think I might be more confused than I was before. Here's what I thought going into this thing (meaning the board)...

I thought that he was very polite and charming and that he has a kind heart. I deal with doctors all day long, some are complete jerks (even by Ulrick's definition) and some are clearly nice guys. My definition of a nice guy is one that is confident but not ****y and that really cares about other people's feelings. I thought that he was attracted to me on some level because of the interactions that we've had, some of which I've listed in this thread. Now I'm being told that none of those things are worth anything. I also thought that he didn't want me to be mad at him or have an attitude with him, hence the constant excuses about his time and the constant "promise" of a phone call. Now - what made him ask me about whether I was mad? He came by, talked a bit about a patient and then said he had to go. I looked at him, said "alright" and walked away. Was there a bit of an attitude from my part? Yes. He followed me and then asked me whether I was mad and you all pretty much know the rest.

I don't get any "bad" vibes from him. One minute I get he likes me, the next I don't. I'm sure that he doesn't have the time that a serious relationship would take at this point in his career. I wasn't trying to become his one and only. A friend, someone with potential? Yes.

I don't even know how to take what happened with our conversation about the not calling. He didn't say anything like he was never going to call and he certainly didn't tell me again that he was going to. He did tell me several times that he doesn't have time to date right now, which from what I have heard is not true. Really, if I had not heard that he was actively pursuing women, I would not have felt lied to. He also mentioned several times that he would have time after this rotation was over.

I'm not stupid. I understand that he may feel his life would be a lot easier if he were able to get along with me until he leaves and then he wouldn't have to worry about what I think unless he happens to bump into me elsewhere. And maybe a lot of you don't believe that I'm not mad. But I'm not. I would never act unprofessionally towards him or be rude to him - that would not only compromise my integrity but my role at work as well.

And just so you all know - I am actively dating other men. I am not in a serious relationship now because I just don't feel that way about any of the men that I'm dating or know right now. So hats off to your fellow DJ for having me all twisted. I'm sure you are all proud of him.

cece
 

TooColdUlrick

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yes, bringing up the issue of him not calling you was a "trick". if it really DIDN'T bother you, you would have brushed it off altogether and wouldn't have said anything. you were trying to "remind" him that he should be calling you! you were 100% sure he would, but he didn't. now you have this burning desire to know why.

i don't expect you to agree with this, for on this site we always say, never believe what a woman says, believe what she DOES. this is a perfect example.

BTW, all of this business about the phone number stuff is cr@p. it has nothing to do with what's going on in my opinion.

like i said, i think he does like you. if all of this is true...

You do not escort a woman places, touch her, stop to speak to her, wave to her whenever you see her, have extended eye contact with her when there are a lot of people around, and ask her questions about herself, etc., etc., etc. if you do not like her - or at least want her to think that you do.
has he kept this up, post phone-number-trick-conversation-incident?

okay, honey. here's what you do to settle the issue. take a risk. you know, like all of us guys do all the time with approaching chicks. i know, women get completely devestated at one rejection. deal with it.

option one: go up to him in private and tell him you're interested in getting to know him better, ask him to lunch.

if your assessment of his interest is remotely correct, he won't get spooked.

option two: just ask him out on a date. hey bub, i can get some tickets to such and such, would like to go with me? (for gods sake, no dinner/movie stuff--something fun).

option three: take him into a utility closet, unzip his pants, and give him what he really wants.

second option is better, depends on your style though.

that's it.

why do you think everyone here is against you? don't listen to Lost In Translation, he's a dvck.

i hope you know, you're getting some good advice here, even from the angry's. if you go to any other web site you're toast.
 

KiInCollege

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I like how you think, C-do.

Don't take offense from others here so easily. There are many bitter men on this site. But, perhaps you enjoy the ego boost of defending yourself in a witty manner - I enjoy reading these.

Since you've given such a good report of your interpretations, I will offer my view.

Unfortunately for women, men have the first pick among who they court. Women may give subtle hints that they are approachable (eye contact, or other nonverbal communications), however our culture dictates that the man initiates the bold move of approaching.

Beyond all else, the man must be attracted enough in order to approach.

Women only get to choose when more than one man is interested (which is often if they are attractive).

Even so, I do not think the "number-giving mistake" was as serious of an issue as you think. In actuality, it may have simply revealed his intentions sooner. Here's why:

Most men appreciate the resources saved when a women they are interested in does the work for them. The man can then make his move with confidence. You giving your number was a very strong move which would make even the most shy man act on you with confidence.

However, this also means that the man you're interested in had no intention of having a romantic relationship with you (as you've suspected). I want to add that you should not bother "bumping" into him again - the result will be the same. For whatever reason (you mentioned age, background, culture), he will not be attracted to you. He may seem so, but only because he is a master at flirting.

My advice is to keep the bridge between you and him open, as you've done, but don't hold your breath.

Men come to this site to empower themselves with techniques and a positive state of mind - a woman gains power mainly by making herself more attractive (and thus, improve their chances of being chosen by the man they want).

That should be your focus, ma'am :)
 

c-do

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I have not spoken to your idol since the whole phone number thing. Wait a minute - I never said that it didn't bother me that he didn't call! It's clear that it does bother me. Of course I would like him to be attracted to me. I was fine not saying anything about it for the past month. I did mention it once and will explain that if you want in a later post. But when I hear that he IS calling women and asking them out, then it becomes clear that he's giving me B.S. excuses on a constant basis. I feel the need to call him on that. So I guess I can answer that question better when I see him again. Like I said earlier though, even after I had told him that I just wanted to forget about him telling me he was going to call, he kept going on and on about the time thing. At one point I told him to look at me and said, "I don't care about the time - it's not about the time". He mentioned it several more times though, stating that he hasn't asked a girl out since he's been doing this rotation (which my one friend says isn't true) and that he will have more time afterwards. He also told me this early on in that conversation - he told me that with him it was either black or white. If he calls a woman, he wants to ask her out on a date. But if he doesn't have the time to do that, he's not going to call. He said his intention was to call me. I didn't tell him that I had heard he asked a girl out earlier this week because that really didn't have anything to do with the way he feels about me, other than making it clear he is asking women out which goes to my whole point which was that he must not see me on that level. Which in turn led me to feel the need to tell him that was okay, just cut the crap. I know, it's ugly.

Ulrick, the thought of putting myself out there again makes me sick. I am no different from anyone else that cringes at the thought of rejection. Especially because I rarely make the moves and don't have to worry about it (that is not a boast in any way). I swear I feel bad for you guys having to do this all the time. If you feel 1/10th of the anxiety I feel you must just want to join a monistary! How crazy would it be to ask him out when all he does is tell me how busy he is?? Maybe closer to when he's supposed to leave as he really is working approximately 100 hours/week right now. I'm clearly not at the top of his list so whatever time he has is spent doing someone else. Ooops - doing something else.

Here's the truth. I find him incredibly sexy and attractive. His quiet coolness sets me afire. However, it is really hard to get to know someone at work, especially when your meetings are very brief. I have created this image in my head of what he must be like - this may be entirely false. I must admit that I was quite taken back by his image elsewhere - I would have never guessed based on how he is where I work. So I would love to get to know what he's really like. And, of course, I would like him to get to know me. I'm not all business all the time. Although he has caught glimpses of my wit through short exchanges, he has no clue as to all there is to me.

So what to do. Go on with our interactions the way they were, where we always chat when we see each other? Or pull away on speak on an as-needed basis? Avoid eye contact or continue to look at each other? Smile or turn away?

And by the way, the only time I was 100% sure he was going to call was for the first weekend after I gave him my number. After that I was just frustrated by the fact that he kept saying he would. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt thinking that it didn't make sense to keep volunteering that information if it wasn't his intention. Clearly I was wrong.

cece
 

Bonhomme

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You win some, you lose some.

Happens to us all, cece.

My best advice is basically the same advice I'd give to one of the guys here who is in a similar situation.

The BS excuses were probably a result of his wanting to let you down as easy as possible, misguided though they may be.

Just play it cool, and go about your business. Chat with him, and if you can manage to do so with a clear head, your wit will surface. Definitely avoid any sort of mention of his not calling you. Treat him as an acquaintance. That's the best you can do.

C'est la vie, cece.
 

c-do

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Bonhomme,

I do believe that is the track I will take with this whole thing. I have to say that the past two days have really helped me feel a lot better about this. My sincere thanks to all of you.

I am very interested as to what he will be like. Will he act like nothing happened? Because I swear if he tells me one more time how busy he is, I'm just going to have to say, "yes, we've established that already" or something like that. Instead of my usual, "it'll get better, you're doing a good job, they have complete faith in you, etc." Or perhaps he won't feel the need to say that since we've cleared up the whole lingering phone call thing.

I still have the hots for him but will try to keep my wits about myself. And don't worry - I will never ever mention the phone call thing again. That's been squashed.

A lingering question though to the fellas. If he doesn't give a crap - which I think we may have figured out - why do you think he was so concerned when I walked away from him the other day? I mean, why did he follow me and ask me if I was mad? Does that make sense?

cece
 

sapphire

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Your situation and your behavior towards this guy is validation of what this site espouses. It appears that he is a natural DJ who may or may not be interested in you but who is obviously emotionally detached in his interactions with you which is driving you crazy.

I will wager that if all of a sudden he started to pay attention to you, your interest in him would proportionally decrease.

In essence, we are intrigued by that which is elusive. The MYSTERY thereby created by this guy is magnifying your attraction beyond that which it really is. Once the mystery is gone, then you will begin to see the defects (both physical and mental) and your attraction may either disappear altogether or will come down to earth.

I can only say is that you should withdraw and see if he pursues.
 

c-do

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Thanks Sapphire. All I can say is that I'm a believer.

So where do you find that balance then? Where you really like someone but are willing to accept their flaws? Is it even possible? Or will we all be forever in pursuit of the unattainable imagined?

cece
 

sapphire

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All I am saying is that you do not really know this guy. You say that you are very attracted to him and find him sexy even though you seem to suggest that he is a pretty average looking guy. Hence, what is it about him that strikes your fancy?

Personality? I don't think so. Because he is nice? I highly doubt it. Ones personality or niceness does not arouse such passions.

Think deeply. Maybe this guy reminds you of some old boyfriend that you were deeply in love with or some guy you had a profound crush on. Or perhaps he has certain traits of your
father.

Try to understand you attraction and the reasons for it and maybe you will be able to find the answers to your questions.
 

c-do

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He really is average looking. Maybe 5'10 and 170 lbs. Not a big guy at all. I typically go for the basketball type physique - 6'3 and taller with a well built body. He also wears glasses - something I'm not used to. Maybe it's his accent. He is from South America and has an incredible accent. Nothing like my father who is white (Danish, French, German). Except maybe his size??? He is also extremely polite when speaking. He is unassuming and quiet. He's starting to show signs of grey in his jet black hair, which is turning me on - that's a new one for me too. I would rate him a 6-7 on looks alone but he's outta the park on attraction factor. Maybe I am attracted to his obvious sense of independence, being here from a different culture. I am not from a different country but left where my family lives when I was 17 and consider myself to be independent also.

Maybe you're onto something. I'll have to try to put my finger on it.

cece
 

TooColdUlrick

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even after I had told him that I just wanted to forget about him telling me he was going to call, he kept going on and on about the time thing. At one point I told him to look at me and said, "I don't care about the time - it's not about the time".
drama, drama, drama...wasn't this on ER like 10 times?

I didn't tell him that I had heard he asked a girl out earlier this week because that really didn't have anything to do with the way he feels about me,
gossip, gossip, gossip, but it has a lot to do with how you feel about him

other than making it clear he is asking women out which goes to my whole point which was that he must not see me on that level. Which in turn led me to feel the need to tell him that was okay, just cut the crap. I know, it's ugly.
sorry, but cry me a river, and welcome to what WE have to put up with on a near continuous basis :( i guess that doesn't help your situation though.

Ulrick, the thought of putting myself out there again makes me sick. I am no different from anyone else that cringes at the thought of rejection. Especially because I rarely make the moves and don't have to worry about it (that is not a boast in any way). I swear I feel bad for you guys having to do this all the time. If you feel 1/10th of the anxiety I feel you must just want to join a monistary!
well, it's not that bad because we are men (most of us anyway). men chase, women get caught--usually. but, the next time you give out a fake phone # or agree to a date and blow a dude out, or make up some lie, or LJBF a dude, just keep that in mind. i know women are aware, but they really aren't.

yes, you are terrified of him rejecting you. most women are incapable of dealing with rejection. nobody likes it, but us guys HAVE to approach and take the "risk". some guys get rejected 9 times out of 10, but still do it. you should be thanking us for it too. you're welcome.

How crazy would it be to ask him out when all he does is tell me how busy he is?? Maybe closer to when he's supposed to leave as he really is working approximately 100 hours/week right now. I'm clearly not at the top of his list so whatever time he has is spent doing someone else. Ooops - doing something else.
as TooCold lays on the couch, ready for his therapy...

here's the deal because i know exactly where your boy is coming from.

i do investment banking related work and consulting. i also teach at a pretty big university. i'm a busy guy. i usually put in 60-80 a week, 60 is no sweat. 80 is rough. occasionally, i put in 100 hour weeks. when i do, it's usually for 4-6 weeks in a row, on a project. probably twice per year. i can tell you that it fukks you up. do the math: if you work 6 days, sundays off, you're looking at a 16 hour day (and 2/3 actually). you've got 8 left. sleep 6. you've got 2 left. travel time of 1 hour total, IF you're really lucky. down to 1 hour per day for shower, breakfast, dinner, take a sh!t, and take a bong hit to get to sleep, and whatever else you need to do. sundays you ask? they're for catching up.

literally, the only thing you want to do is sleep and maybe fukk a hot chick. you don't have time to pick up your dry cleaning, go to the store. cat is on his own. gotta hire someone (me anyway) to take care of my personal stuff--laundry, etc. last month i got my utils turned off! i fukking forgot to pay the bill! i had my MOM go and pay it and get it turned on again! family, they get bumped down temporarily. friends? right! gonna have to wait on the return calls. you forget stuff, then people call you (me) absent minded, they get pizzed off too, etc...

chicks? NO WAY! but, BIG BUT, for pvssy ONLY yes, just to relieve some stress, and to make sure that what sleep you do get is decent quality. how to get it? 1) a phone call and a couple of bills, 2) you've got horny chicks whom you can call, **** buddies.

"he's doing someone else..." you said jokingly. maybe he is! just so you know, i was only half joking about taking him into the utility closet and doing him up. poor guy probably needs it :) :)

when i do contact a buddy, family member, chick, etc... i will say "i'll call you when i can, i'm really busy now..." but i usually don't until things have settled down. it's not that i'm a liar or i'm bs'n. it's that i AM busier than most people can possibly imagine. so a chick thinks i'm playing games, because that's a standard line for reformed AFCs, she gets all pizzed off at me. or am i suppose to say, "yeah, will call you back in two months"? it won't work. explaining it is foolish. dealing with it is foolish!

i just got off a "rotation" like this. i'm taking a month off right now just to get my bearings back and get some of my personal life back in order, and yes, making phone calls that i promised two months ago! (eg repairing damage). even coming back here and dvcking around. your boy can't take a month off because he's probably dirt poor and residency precludes it.

read into this whatever you wish, but i know where he's coming from.

ahhhh... being a man is hard work, isn't it? :( maybe that's his charm? maybe that's why i don't have too much of a problem with chicks? they are low on the list a lot of times. scarcity increases value, it's a fact.

PS: i'm not a workaholic, i just have a lot of responsibilities.

Here's the truth. I find him incredibly sexy and attractive. His quiet coolness sets me afire.
yes i know...your panties are a blazing inferno :) uh, what's your number?

I have created this image in my head of what he must be like - this may be entirely false. I must admit that I was quite taken back by his image elsewhere - I would have never guessed based on how he is where I work. So I would love to get to know what he's really like.
yes of course you have done this. an idle mind is the devils workshop. women LOVE to do this! when a man's quiet coolness, and unavailability, sets a womens loins afire, whatever game you have, completely falls apart, in favor of passion. especially so when he's not returning the vibe, but you know he would, if only you could meet and talk for a while. you want to know how he kisses and makes out, forced eye contact, heavy petting, taking your clothes off, what he smells like, tastes like, what it would be like to wake up next to him. god i'm cruel, huh?

you're ga ga over him. those other guys you're dating do nothing to your loins like this guy. right?



what to do? that's tough. don't do anything till his hours settle down, but do keep in contact, do send him some signals, you're a woman you know how to do this. when he's off the hours, straight up, ask him out. if you don't, and he doesn't, you will drive yourself nvts. right?

here is something that a chick did for me a couple of years back. we had gone out twice, but had a good amount of professional contact, and got along fantastically. we definitely were diggin on each other. just one innocent kiss at this point. i was working insane hours. out of the blue, she says, "TooCold,i know you're working incredible hours, if there's anything i can do for you, let me know..." i actually took her up on it, because i knew it was from the heart. nothing major, just small errands here and there after work. definitely treated her like a queen after things settled down. was the nicest thing someone has done for me.

kinda risky for her to do that, but that made it all the better. she was the yummiest chick i've ever had. moved back to florida, boohoo.

you said that he's dating some others at your work? could it be that someone else in the hen house also has been set afire, but who's already acted, and/or sabatoged any chance you may have had? you know how vicious women can get when they really want something. just a thought.
 
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C-don't,

Maybe he doesn't want you because you are older and more established than him - is this the case??

(PR_Lover takes fire extinguisher and sprays out the fire in C-Do's panties):D
 

c-do

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Ulrich,

Thank you so much for your reply. I understand the whole busy thing. I probably put in close to 80 hours a week between working full time and going to school full time. The truth is that I don't date men who aren't busy because I can't commit on that level right now. However, I do not know what it's like to get paged in the middle of the night after only getting an hours sleep to come in and do some emergency surgery. I do understand that the man is busy. I think that what you do is extremely thoughtful - to call someone and at least let them know that you are going to call them when things settle down.

I guess looking at this whole thing with what you had said in mind makes me look at it a bit differently. But it really was pissing me off that he kept telling me that he was going to call when I knew he was calling other women to go out on dates. And no, PR Lover, he's not dating anyone at my job.

I did ask him once if there was anything I could do for him when he was crying over his hours. But it was more of a joke. I said, "is there something I can do for you, like perform surgery or at least round on your patients?" He laughed and that was the end of it. I think he asked me if I could write his notes on the one patient he was seeing right then.

I guess that men and women have their priorities arranged a bit differently. Or at least their interests.

As to PR's question as to whether I'm older than him. The answer is I don't think so. I've never asked him how old his is. If I am older than him, it's negligible - maybe a year or two at the most. But I'm not thinking I am. Probably more established, but he doesn't know that. All he knows is that I work and go to school. We haven't had very deep discussions about our home lives.

So when I woke up this morning I was thinking I was going to go with the whole pull back thing, but Ulrich, you seem to think I should be more aggressive?

And yes, I can admit that I've got it bad for him. No one else is turning me on like this right now. So there's a lot of energy over this thing that I don't know what to do with. Keep flirting with him so that he believes what I said about being cool with everything? I will see him tomorrow and need to figure this out.

You guys are great. And I do have a deeper appreciation for you.

cece
 

Centy

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*shakes head*

damn, how did this once so great forum get to this..!!?

serioulsy c-do. this is forum where GUYS try to help other GUYS pick up women. you should go to one of those chick-forums where they discuss your 'situation' all day long.
 

TooColdUlrick

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yes, keep flirting with him. can't hurt.
 

chicksrock

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Ulrick -> You are too good damn funny!:cool:

Cece -> God damn girl ...you are over analyzing this whole thing way way way too much! Too much talk and no action.

Would'nt it be a shame that you spend all this time and energy thinking about your loved one....and when you finally get that moment to interact with him and do something about it ... YOU WILL SNAP! You have dramatized the whole thing so much and have put too much pressure on yourself...you are running the race before it has even happened

You will most likely come off as cold/odd to Mr.Handsome Doctor (who probably does like you!?)...and you would have blown all the chances you could have had.

So please be practical about this whole thing. It really isn't so bad or hard or difficult. In the end you are the only one that imposes limits upon yourself.

I still also think you should make a move. You know you want to, you know you care a lot, otherwise you wouldn't go through all this trouble to get opinions from everyone else and post so much and analyze so much. I think everyone here is encouraging you to bust a move on this guy!

You need more motivation?
-You only live once

-So what if he says no, at least you tried, at least you gave that option a chance,....
besides Mr.Handsome Doctor seems like a cool person...and I don't think he'll make you feel all embarassed or anything.....
so you've got nothing to lose.....give it a shot.....and also you won't see him again cause he's moving hospitals?

-And on the positive side if he says yes! WOW your dreams/fantasies become a reality ! So go for it....besides lots of girls ask guys out...its not like you are starting a new revolution or anything....it is perfectly natural and cool....and pat yourself on the back for having the courage to do it.
 

TooColdUlrick

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Originally posted by chicksrock
Ulrick -> You are too good damn funny!:cool:
well, thank you :)

Originally posted by chicksrock
-And on the positive side if he says yes! WOW your dreams/fantasies become a reality ! So go for it....besides lots of girls ask guys out...its not like you are starting a new revolution or anything....it is perfectly natural and cool....and pat yourself on the back for having the courage to do it.
i beg to differ. her dreams and fantasies that she as in her mind about Dr. Who are incongruent with reality. but that's the way it is when you have a burning lust for someone.

but yes, if he doesn't ask you out, YOU do it, when you know his hours aren't as tough. regret is far worse than rejection. take it from us guys, we know!

i still say it--lead him into a utility closet and do him up! :) he'll be yours!

how old are you two? this would be semi-important. maybe you should have posted this on the mature forum?
 
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TooColdUlrick

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Originally posted by PuertoRican_Lover
C-don't,

Maybe he doesn't want you because you are older and more established than him - is this the case??

(PR_Lover takes fire extinguisher and sprays out the fire in C-Do's panties):D
don't listen to PRL, he thinks a women is washed up after she turns 21. or is it 18? :) the fact of the matter is they're washed up when they hit 25!

PRL's man-code...

"established" = "washed up ho"
 
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