In a relationship - how to get past urges to cheat?

[Rave18]

Came across the following interview and this thread at the same time

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Mantak Chia - A Modern Taoist Master

by Christopher Larthe

listed in interviews, originally published in issue 42 - July 1999

Famous for his books on cultivating male and female sexuality, Mantak Chia is probably the most quoted, misquoted and plagiarised of writers on esoteric sex. Less well known is his great work as healer and teacher. He founded the system known as The Healing Tao which today has over 700 certified instructors and thousands of practitioners throughout the world, teaching and practising the Taoist arts, from Healing to Tai Chi, offering benefits ranging from stress relief to immortality.

He was born in Bangkok to Chinese parents in 1944. His father was a Baptist minister, the first break in many generations of Taoist Healers. In a land of Buddhism, with strong Hindu and animist influences, Mantak Chia was brought up as a Christian. After twenty years in the West, he now lives and works at the Tao Garden, the home and healing meditation centre he has created in Northern Thailand.

In this exclusive interview for Positive Health magazine, he talks to Christopher Larthe about healing and magic, sex and religion, mobile phones and immortality.

The traditional Taoist masters taught one-to-one, never to foreigners, and closely guarded their ancient secrets. You have written ten books and you teach Westerners in a very Western way, with workshops and group seminars. Why break with the old traditions?

My teacher, the hermit White Cloud, was last of the long lineage of masters from Long White Mountain at Chang Bai San near Manchuria. Seeing the traditional way of the Tao being repressed in his homeland, he feared the secrets of long life and good health would be lost. In exile in Hong Kong, he saw how other masters charged too much money for these secrets, just giving to one or two pupils. He felt the way to keep the Taoist practices alive was to bring them into modern society so that many could benefit. It was he who instructed me to teach Westerners but first to prove my roots with my own people.

You taught first in your home city of Bangkok and then in the Chinese community of New York.[1] Your main work was healing, but it was the sexual practices that caught the attention of your Western students. These secret arts were originally taught to enable an Emperor to enjoy his harem of wives and concubines without depleting his energies. You were brought up a Christian. Did you not feel a conflict with the Christian ideas of sin?

No conflict, for sexual practices are healing practices, healing the self, healing relationships. It is only sin if you see it as sin. Sex is natural, not sinful. The human being has a powerful sex drive – and you cannot keep ping-pong balls under water. Sometime, somewhere, they pop back up, maybe as disease, maybe as emotional problems, causing energy blockages, leading to illness.

Are you saying we should repress nothing, have sex whenever and wherever, with whoever?

I say sex is your servant, not your master. Who am I to decide where and when, or who you do it with? This is between you and your conscience. I teach how to control and harness the sexual energy, energy powerful enough for a man to repopulate a continent with a single ejaculation. And every woman is born with enough eggs to generate hundreds of lives. Without reproduction all that power is wasted. If we are not using the hormones and nutrients of sexual activity to start a new life we can recycle it to make our own life longer, healthier, more enjoyable. Not repressing, recycling!

And the moral aspect?

All the churches make the morals, but they all say different things. Some religions say sex with corpses is a sacred path to enlightenment, with others you may have several wives at once, while in others you go to hell for impure thought. What is impure thought? Every man secretly imagines being Emperor, having many women, even monks and priests, even saints – Saint Augustine said "Lord give me chastity, but please, not just yet." Some churches try to make us feel guilty for thinking natural thoughts. Yet these urges make our human species so successful, so strong, survive so many generations. Imagine an enlightened being descending to earth now and telling us it is sinful to move our bowels. We'd all go pop! We cannot help moving bowels, it is a natural function. So is sex. In the Tao we say: no right or wrong, no good or bad, just recycling the energy.

Do you still consider yourself a Christian?

I do. These are not religious practices and you don't have to convert! You can be Hindu, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim and still enjoy the benefits in the framework of your own belief system, if you have one. I am Christian, but don't belong to any church. I may start one here in the Tao Garden – we already married three couples. No, the churches teach about it being bad to do this, bad to do that. We don't have to be taught what's bad: it comes naturally. Or doing what comes naturally – they call it bad! The Western God is dominant male, very yang, enforcing law with fear of punishment, burn in hell. Society reflects this, with laws enforced by violence. Now there is imbalance between the yang of justice and the yin of compassion. True religion is about love and compassion.

What about the balance of the sexes? You have written a best seller, MultiOrgasmic Man.[2] What about multiorgasmic woman?

Woman naturally is multiorgasmic, and one of my earliest books was about cultivating female sexual energy.[3] Woman is yin. Yang and yin cannot exist without each other, so it is better if they are in harmony. Taoist practice is to promote harmony, because when the man lets go of semen, he is finished, but the woman is ready for more. When both are in tune, they have increased vigour, improved stamina, enhanced sensation, unlimited whole-body orgasms. Ideal is the multiorgasmic couple. The sexual practices are self-healing for couples.

 

[Rave18]

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Conserving energy by seminal retention is an exclusively male practice. How does a woman obtain the benefits of health and longevity?

Woman does not normally lose energy through orgasm, but through menstruation and childbirth. Taoist practices for women recycle menstrual energy, with the same benefits, of long life, good health and painless menstruation as well. But even for man, seminal retention by itself is not enough; non-ejaculatory orgasm without opening the Microcosmic Orbit leads to blockages in the sexual centre, sometimes with aching, congestion, wet dreams, headaches. Both man and woman must redirect energy through the Microcosmic Orbit, what the classics call the Small Heavenly Cycle. As above, so below – within each one of us is also a small universe, a small cosmos, yin and yang flowing together. In the act of sex, the moment of orgasm, yin and yang unite and the two heavenly cycles become one.

The Microcosmic Orbit, as you first described it many years ago,[4] has since appeared in books by various westerners on love, sex, tantra, sex-magic and shamanism. Some writers acknowledge you as the originator, others try – really quite hard in some cases – to disguise the origin. Have you any message for those who take credit for your work?

(Laughs): I'm glad they like it! If they help people to more fulfilled lives, they are helping me and I am grateful, and happy to help them. But some techniques can be dangerous if not done with care and preparation. For example, I am teaching Taoist Tantra, which has common roots with Hindu and Buddhist kundalini practices.[5] The Taoist way puts safety first, working with the energy-body, making sure channels are open and clear at each stage before going on to the next. We also practise Tai Chi and Iron Shirt Chi Kung to keep grounded. With some Indo/Tibetan (Hindu/Buddhist) systems there can be danger of activating too much energy before clearing channels and without proper grounding. This can overload the nervous system, with many painful side-effects. Tantra is known as the short path to enlightenment, but this short path could actually mean one whole lifetime of preparation and practice. You cannot learn it in a weekend.

True. Indian Tantric classics advise setting aside twelve years to prepare for awakening Kundalini,[6] but by following your Taoist teachings it took me only six. What about magic? Taoist, tantric, shamanic and wicca practices have similarities,[7] such as the protective circle, calling the elements, ecstatic journeying and flight, power animals and so on, but the Taoists don't use drums, rattles, robes or other articles of the craft. Are there common roots?

The Taoist Canon[8] describes how a group of Aryans were shipwrecked on the South China shore thousands of years ago. They did not die, nor have children, and became known as the Shining Ones. They transmitted their secret magical and healing practices to the shamans. When Buddhism came to China, shamans were persecuted, like witches in the west, so they became Taoists, rivals to the Buddhists, and continued their practices in secret, using only internal energy, internal alchemy, without the use of accessories to identify themselves. The saying goes "you cannot tell a sage by his clothes." They were also known as magicians, wizards and sorcerers. Yes, Taoism is magic.

What happened to the Shining Ones?

Who knows? Maybe still around but not in their physical body. They could leave when they want, astral travel, come back when they want.

Are you not afraid that you teach magical practices which could be misused?

Magic is like religion. It can be of great benefit, or cause great harm. In Taoist magic as in the Tao, there is no judgement – we are all responsible for ourselves. As long as you do not harm another being, you are free to do what you want.

Master Chia, you are a Hi-tech Taoist. You use mobile phones, computers, television. How do you protect yourself from "electronic pollution?"

Technology is very good. It releases us from drudgery. With electronics, you can keep yourself safe inside your energy bubble, and create an insulating bubble around the equipment.[9] As you know from our Taoist Healing practices[10] you can seal yourself from the condition of your patients, even serious contagious diseases. One healing practice is to internalise disease, then cleanse, energise and restore healthy energy to patient. Energy is vibration – we get the vibration right, nothing bad gets through. This is psychic self-defence, very important for healers. The more you work with contaminated energy, the more you need the protective practices, from Inner Smile right through to Kan & Li. This gives external protection, internal clarity and helps us live in modern society, and use the technology.

You have a genius for interpreting Chinese classics in a way that westerners can relate to. But your teaching has changed over the years, become less formulaic, more intuitive. The classics haven't changed, though. Are you re-interpreting the ancient secrets?

The old Masters taught one-to-one, reciting secret formulas obscured in codes. Many people could not read or write in those days.

They just practised the formulas, learning by experience and repetition, not asking questions, trusting the Master. That is how I learned from White Cloud, and how I started teaching. Now I've taught in the west for over twenty years, with workshops and group seminars.

Westerners have intellectual appreciation for theory. I have the benefit of feedback from my own direct students and over 700 Healing Tao instructors and their students. So we evolve and adapt. I learn from my students. The material is the same, just the delivery changes. Interpretation also changes, as modern science tells us things about the energy-field that ancient Taoists knew but did not have the vocabulary to explain and anyway wanted to keep secret. Now, for example, Deepak Chopra,[11] investigating ageing, talks about energy-information, energy-intelligence, bio-electromagnetic force. This is a modern scientist giving real sense of the meaning to what he calls prana, and the Taoist classics call 'Qi'.

What about immortality? There are stories of ancient sages who lived for many hundreds of years. Are they true? Is this the goal of the Healing Tao?[12]

If a sage died many hundreds of years old, then he is dead, not immortal! White Cloud told me his teacher was 250 years old. He had to go to his cave and put wax in the teacher's nose and other orifices to keep out insects and dust, and make sure the body was not eaten while his teacher's spirit was away travelling to source. What is immortality? Keeping the same body for ever, or awareness of your spirit in different incarnations? What is important is to be present in this life, learn to transform stress into vitality, develop compassion through love, recycle energy to keep the body healthy and in harmony with mind and spirit, learn to understand true nature as spirit – then you are open to possibilities beyond the cycle of life and death.

Thank you, Master Chia.

http://www.positivehealth.com/article/interviews/mantak-chia-a-modern-taoist-master

 

[Knight's Cross]

Ahhh the whole Cheat/Don't Cheat Debacle.
As the OP noticed other women's IL have been driven up due to his liaisons with one of their own. So...the opportunity exists to go hit that. Really it comes down to what you want to live with.
I think the only times I took advantage of a situation like this was when I was dating someone that I knew wasn't long term good. Same issue, other women saw me with an attractive blonde, brunette, redhead, I had social proof and there you go. I was off getting other strange.
The OP has to decide, is what he has long term? Or is it something he isn't really invested in? My personal take is if I am developing something that I think can lead to LTR I don't go elsewhere. If I know that the current plate is just fun, but not someone I'm going to be with forever, then I'll spin up the other plates to the bedroom level.
That's my equation, it's worked out pretty well so far. Your mileage may vary.
KC

 

[zekko]

What I like about the PUA/MRA community is that they stand up for what they want, rather than accept monogamy as a god-given , ironclad rule.

Where have I EVER stated that we must embrace monogamy as a God given, ironclad rule? My point, and Tictac's, was that the OP must decide what is important to him, and act accordingly. I don't know why you have a problem with that.

As for psycopaths, yes, a large segment of the PUA community embraces psychopaths nearly to the extent of hero-worship. I don't see how you can possibly miss that. Here are three Roissy articles just as a beginning:

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2014/02/04/psychopath-game/

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/11/13/cultivate-your-inner-dark-triad/

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2013/04/26/why-are-men-with-dark-triad-personalities-so-irresistible-to-women/

Simple, actually.

Antediluvian platitude: Nothing new under the sun, just new people. Do onto others as you would have done onto you.

Bashing or defining "morality" is a superfluous exercise.

The Golden Rule. Do unto others as you would have done unto you. Such a basic, and such a practical, philosophy. I really don't understand why anyone would object to such a teaching. Too bad Roger Elliott didn't follow it.

A lot of people these days want to rid the world of morality just because they want to rebel against tradition and authority or whatever. But they fail to realize that most of it just boils down to simple common sense.

 

[samspade]

Very good. We agree up until this point. I completely agree with the latter part of your post. My critics will try to reduce my position to advocate clearly harming others against their will. That is not my point. I merely argue that the definition of *cheating* can be different for different couples.

My original premise is, what that "agreement" you refer to, can be and has to be discussed very clearly between consenting parties. And what I object to is the knee-jerk refusal of even a mere discussion of what that agreement might be.

Well that's true. Different couples have different standards. Whatever the ground rules are, breaking them is a betrayal of the agreement. It's not my place to tell other people what standards to employ, but I will say that one should stick to those standards and hold the other party to them. Or dissolve the agreement. If your girlfriend says she doesn't mind you dipping your pen in some other chick's inkwell once every few months, more power to you.

The problem is you see a lot of rationalizing after the fact. "It's not really cheating..." "It was just a hand job..." I'll agree with you that a woman doing it is worse than a man, for reasons we've all discussed before. But people know when they've cheated, otherwise they wouldn't feel bad and make excuses and rationalizations. And looking for loopholes before the fact is part of it too. Either you're doing something your (LTR) partner would disapprove of, or you're not.

It is true there is no universal morality - every individual has to accept or reject "morals" which may change with time.

 

[guru1000]

Let's not be a troll. You are better than that.

It's called humility and appreciation, friend. You should try it once you are ready.

 

[guru1000]

It is true there is no universal morality - every individual has to accept or reject "morals" which may change with time.

Morality is a moot issue, as it's mutable. What's relevant is the grieved party's feelings toward the act done upon him/her, which often coincides with the accepted principles of morality.

 

[Boilermaker]

Well that's true. Different couples have different standards. Whatever the ground rules are, breaking them is a betrayal of the agreement. It's not my place to tell other people what standards to employ, but I will say that one should stick to those standards and hold the other party to them. Or dissolve the agreement. If your girlfriend says she doesn't mind you dipping your pen in some other chick's inkwell once every few months, more power to you.

The problem is you see a lot of rationalizing after the fact. "It's not really cheating..." "It was just a hand job..." I'll agree with you that a woman doing it is worse than a man, for reasons we've all discussed before. But people know when they've cheated, otherwise they wouldn't feel bad and make excuses and rationalizations. And looking for loopholes before the fact is part of it too. Either you're doing something your (LTR) partner would disapprove of, or you're not.

It is true there is no universal morality - every individual has to accept or reject "morals" which may change with time.

I agree with this, %100. We are completely on the same page.

 

[Boilermaker]

Where have I EVER stated that we must embrace monogamy as a God given, ironclad rule? My point, and Tictac's, was that the OP must decide what is important to him, and act accordingly. I don't know why you have a problem with that.

I don't have a problem with that. I just don't know why you have a problem with a group of people who want to define their own moral standards.

The word "psychopath" is clearly not used literally in any of the posts you have linked.

What I object to is your immediate "frowning upon" considering what you think constitutes cheating.

I have absolutely no problem with your camp, it's you who use frames/labels and names.

 

[Boilermaker]

It's called humility and appreciation, friend.

No, it's called second grade ad-hominem calling me a broke, worthless PhD ( funny that you think that's insulting me) instead of coming up with rational responses.

The biblical verse you have quoted is wrong on so many levels, we can start by dissecting the homeless man example I came up with or choose any another avenue.

I am willing to examine this "golden rule" seriously, if your dogmas allow such heretical conversations and if you promise you won't start yelling around calling names when things don't go your way.

Very sad that you think you represent yourself as this 40-year old follower of Christ who is knowledgeable, wise and full of "humility" ...

 

[guru1000]

The golden rule is antediluvian (this means before Christ). But let’s say you were bold—or shall we say doltish--enough to ignore age-old, kabbalistic, practiced wisdom, real-life application of such principle will teach you gently or harshly that fate has a reciprocal modus operandi.

Not interested in debating the merits of laws that operate irrespective of our opinion; only to pass this gift along to others. If it doesn’t resonate with you as it allegedly supersedes scientific rationale, then find out for yourself and good luck on your journey.

 

[zekko]

I don't have a problem with that. I just don't know why you have a problem with a group of people who want to define their own moral standards.

Again, where did I say that? The whole point was the OP had to decide what was important to HIM and act accordingly. How was I trying to tell him how to define his own moral standards?

The word "psychopath" is clearly not used literally in any of the posts you have linked.

Psycopaths are psycopaths. Of all the people on the planet to look up, why pick them?

What I object to is your immediate "frowning upon" considering what you think constitutes cheating.

I haven't even discussed what I think constitutes cheating in this thread. Like Sam said, that is something best decided by the couples themselves. I really don't know what you are on about.

 

[Colossus]

You're gonna have urges. But stop looking at p0rn or even "soft" nudie photos. I'm serious.

 

[Boilermaker]

Again, where did I say that? The whole point was the OP had to decide what was important to HIM and act accordingly. How was I trying to tell him how to define his own moral standards?

I think we have all heard you more than once when you went off against PUA
community unprovoked. They have their own self-consistent (key word here) theory of how life should be lived. And for some reason you have a beef against them -- although I have never heard from any of the PUA's I respect that "cheating" is a good thing.

I did hear about what defines cheating though.

Psycopaths are psycopaths. Of all the people on the planet to look up, why pick them?

Psychopath is an interesting choice, because dumb it down a notch you get a manipulator CEO. Dumb it down another notch and you get an successful alpha male. I can expand if you are going to contest this view.

Evolution-wise also, "not caring about others" could be a valuable quality. Although I agree that I would never characterize myself as a psychopath -- I will not blindly dismiss the issue saying "nothing good can be learned by observing psychopaths" -- that's exactly what you are doing regarding PUA culture, seems to me.

I haven't even discussed what I think constitutes cheating in this thread. Like Sam said, that is something best decided by the couples themselves. I really don't know what you are on about.

Then we agree. I thought you were ranting off against the PUA-s and I consider them "redefiners" or "revolutionaries" regarding the rules. They may be dumb, their ideas could be crude, a lot them are clowns who are in it for the money,

but they do challenge what's "GIVEN" and I see a side in them (in some of them), that doesn't scream attention seeking behavior, in other words, combined with smart folk involved in MRA and PUA communities, there are some of them who are genuinely wanting to have these discussions.

Shutting them up whenever you hear the word PUA is what I am on about.

 

[zekko]

Shutting them up whenever you hear the word PUA is what I am on about.

I'm here to discuss, I'm not here to shut anyone up.

It's true that I disagree with certain aspects of the PUA Community, but that doesn't mean I dislike it overall. Sh!t, I'm here, aren't I?

I don't see how ANY thinking person can embrace practically any philosophy or set of beliefs without questioning or disagreeing with SOME of it. Especially something so wide, varied, sprawling, and contradictory as pickup theory. It seems to me you would have to be totally brainwashed. For example, I don't think I know a single Catholic that believes in the idea of papal infallacy.

 

[Boilermaker]

I don't see how ANY thinking person can embrace practically any philosophy or set of beliefs without questioning or disagreeing with SOME of it. Especially something so wide, varied, sprawling, and contradictory as pickup theory. It seems to me you would have to be totally brainwashed. For example, I don't think I know a single Catholic that believes in the idea of papal infallacy.

Interesting you would suggest that in order to buy into "pickup theory" you have to be totally brainwashed, yet being a Catholic doesn't make you that according to you.

As a response, let me just say that "wide, varied, sprawling, contradictory" fits WAY MORE EASILY to religion than pickup theory. And you need to add "barbaric, illogical, stupid, medieval, irrational and primitive" to the list as well, if we were describing religion.

Just not believing the Pope cannot sin (Papal infallibility) doesn't suddenly make Catholics perfect thinkers, believe me.
They (have to) believe in way crazier shít than that. I don't think you'd need any examples.

 

[BeDJ]

It's not rocket surgery quantum physics. Men and women these days can cheat whenever they want. You can't stop that. And no, you can't change that. What it comes down to is NOT putting yourself in a position to 'cheat.' Going to bars alone, having a GNO with shady women, getting drunk off your ass. These are red flags, and hopefully (should have) noticed them before entering monogamy. It's your fault if your woman cheated on you. Can we lay this to rest?

 

[backbreaker]

I use the drinking / drugging analogy. When I was using drugs I tried to quit at least, at least seriously, 10 times. i even strung together a few weeks/ month one time i had almost 3 months clean. but i wasn't done.


that last time, something just clicked and when i went into rehab, i felt like a chapter in a book was closing and a new one is beginning. I knew then 9 years ago i was done. it was what it was, and it was time for a new chapter to begin.


My point being, I mean i have **** days. I remember what it's like to use drugs, not really anymore honestly lol but for the first few years I did. I thought about it occusionally. But i never had to actively fight the u
what anyone said, or whatever, I was done. that wasn't an option anymore.



That's exaclty how I feel about my wife. Do I see pretty women? hells yeah I live in LA. You might catch me starring at some pretty feet or something lol but I can honestly say i have not seriously had an urge to cheat. It's not something I fight.


IMHO, the urge to cheat is a direct result of believing that something new and exicing is out there. Something can take you to a new high you haven't been to yet. Something can make you feel something you haven't felt before, which usually comes as a direct result of you not spinning enough plates when you are single. It's really no different than a young 20 something year old chick getting married to young.


So how do I fight the urges? I don't. I don't have them. Honestly I don't. My wife is hot and I'm very attracted to her and she satisfies every need I have, and i've had enough flavors of ice cream to know that none of them are so good that it's worth giving the flavor I have now, one that I really like.
\

I'm not saying I never will. I don't know what's gonna happen 5 years from now. But It's not something I fight.

The fact that you still want to stick your **** in other women, pretty much is a tell tale sign that she is not the one for you. Are you dating her because you really like her or you just like having a cute girlfriend to do **** with lol? serious question
lol boilermaker has went form being someone who i cringed everytime i saw his username to probably my fav poster on the entire forum. lol he's bringing it ITT

 

[Boilermaker]

The fact that you still want to stick your **** in other women, pretty much is a tell tale sign that she is not the one for you. Are you dating her because you really like her or you just like having a cute girlfriend to do **** with lol? serious question
lol boilermaker has went form being someone who i cringed everytime i saw his username to probably my fav poster on the entire forum. lol he's bringing it ITT

You make a very important point, that urges of cheating could be a side-effect of not being completely content with your sexual history. This is probably true for many a young male who married too early.

But let's not take this too literally, because it's equally insulting to tell a guy he has not found the one simply because he's having these urges.

You consider yourself to be a content man, and having had enough tail in your time; and it would be a big leap for anyone (who is not you) to tell you there must be someone better for you out there, just because you want to blow off steam by flirting with a stripper due to your simple biological urges. For me, and I am sure for many of you, there is a very clear difference between a relationship-level interaction with a woman, and mindless sex.

That said, I accept the viewpoint that desiring other women usually (but not always) points to a deeper issue.

As for you cringing in the past, yeah I know. I was a loose cannon at times, now I am more mature and
besides I have enough reputation

 

[BeDJ]

Both you and backbreaker aren't saying much. What both of you are getting at is that when you find someone you believe to be LTR material, the urge goes away? Because of the past you can simply turn off the urge to fvck other women? You make a case of men marrying too early, of course.

As for backbreaker, I'm sure there are many discrepancies, but let's not focus on that. For what you are telling everyone is that those urges simply go away? Or would you say you have settled for the best you can get? That you have come to a compromise that you are happy with what you have? I am not discrediting anyone in an LTR, we all should settle sometime. You and backbreaker are about the same age, it's quite bizarre to me that you have this mindset. Especially since the manosphere emphasizes that men have the peak SMV at 35. Could it be that both of you are realizing that you both are approaching 'the wall' and not yet realizing your SMV? I don't meant to start an argument, but I'm very fascinated in this discussion.